OT: vote on what the Zimmerman Jury will do

[CitizenBBN]

Well now we are arguing theology...I'm gonna punt on "Original Sin".

Not at all IMO. I'm about as theological as you are, less so significantly in terms of knowledge. I just think Zimmerman made mistakes in his decision making that happen to either not be illegal or certainly not require a verdict of manslaughter. Like I said, just splitting a hair, but I dont consider what he did to be morally wrong based on any particular faith or faith based morality. I consider some of what he did to be logically unwise for his own safety if nothing else, which proved quite true.

Risk your life if you see Martin assaulting someone, even breaking in a window, but risking it b/c he may be a bad guy? Not the wisest of decisions whether it led to a death or not. Dumb, but not manslaughter.

[bigsky]

I knew that; probably should've winked.

[CitizenBBN]

I knew that; probably should've winked.

lol. Sorry, I'm being dense of late.

[KeithKSR]

I ask this question: if Zimmerman never shot, and Martin was prosecuted for assaulting Zimmerman, would you convict Martin of assault? If so, then IMHO Zimmerman is not guilty. If you would acquit Martin in this hypothetical, then Zimmerman is guilty. I think the rest is noise.

Martina's action was clearly an assault, not only was it an assault; but Martin's clear intent was to lure the "cracker" into a position in which he could attack Zimmerman.

The NAACP is calling on the corrupt Obama Justice Dept to file civil rights charges, but the individual that displayed racial prejudice was Martin.

[badrose]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journal...rage-Rap-Sheet

These are the bullies in this story.

[kritikalcat]

Badrose, in regard to the link you posted. The main theme seems to be "Zimmerman isn't white, he's Hispanic" however Hispanic is an ethnicity not a race. Look at the Census or most government forms. Hispanic or Latino is often broken down into Hispanic - Caucasian and Non-Caucasian. Most Hispanics self-identify as "other" and are descended from a mix of Spanish, local natives, etc.

Making the issue about the "white" Zimmerman was wrong, but mostly because it was wrong to make it about race, not because of nitpicking over whether Zimmerman is "white." Would it have served any good purpose to focus on his Hispanic ethnicity? I can tell you there may be more black-Hispanic tension in a lot of communities than Black-(non-Hispanic white.) I've seen it with my own eyes, and from community leaders whom I've heard speak in the same kind of racist terms that white bigots used against blacks 40 years ago. Anyway, getting derailed here...

Now, I think for Zimmerman himself it was a disservice in that combined with his name it isolated him from the Hispanic community.

[kritikalcat]

Outside of the specifics of the tragic incident, the main problem I have with what this case turned into is that it has created / propagated a myth that black youth are at high risk of violence from whites, as if the KKK/lynching era is still in full swing with white bigots enabled by concealed carry laws and protected by stand-your-ground statutes so they can kill young black people with impunity. I'm seeing well educated people buying into this, and it's a lie. Some of it is that their politics are such that any reason to invalidate liberal (in the classic sense) gun and self-defense laws is a good thing in their view; but I think a lot of them believe it fundamentally.

Black youth are at high risk of being victimized by violence.... from other black youth. Do other factors play into that - racism, availability of weapons, poverty, etc. - sure, but the white vigilante stalking and killing African American teens is a bogeyman created by the media and certain activists.

[UKHistory]

And for better or worse the tale of white vigilante stalking and killing African Americans has more evidence to that end.

That story has happened and talking with African Americans stories of similar occurrences are passed down like story of Santa Claus or the Flood and Adam and Eve.

There is a bit of tragic self fulfilling prophecy in all this. Zimmerman saw a hood who up to no good. Martin saw a "crazy ass cracker" who meant to do him harm.

Both got what they saw. The difference was that one was armed and neither it seemed was willing to back down.

[CitizenBBN]

Badrose, in regard to the link you posted. The main theme seems to be "Zimmerman isn't white, he's Hispanic" however Hispanic is an ethnicity not a race. Look at the Census or most government forms. Hispanic or Latino is often broken down into Hispanic - Caucasian and Non-Caucasian. Most Hispanics self-identify as "other" and are descended from a mix of Spanish, local natives, etc.

Making the issue about the "white" Zimmerman was wrong, but mostly because it was wrong to make it about race, not because of nitpicking over whether Zimmerman is "white." Would it have served any good purpose to focus on his Hispanic ethnicity? I can tell you there may be more black-Hispanic tension in a lot of communities than Black-(non-Hispanic white.) I've seen it with my own eyes, and from community leaders whom I've heard speak in the same kind of racist terms that white bigots used against blacks 40 years ago. Anyway, getting derailed here...

Now, I think for Zimmerman himself it was a disservice in that combined with his name it isolated him from the Hispanic community.

IMO the biggest part of that link is how NBC and the New York Time intentionally modified the evidence to make Zimmerman out as racist. That part is a must read for anyone who still accepts what the media says as true and thinks anyone who doubts them is just a nut. I agree the author spends too much time on the "white Hispanic" thing but I do get his point that they just couldn't leave it at "Hispanic", as he identifies himself.

They did it that way b/c "Hispanic" wouldn't sell as well as "white" in the narrative. Even if there is racial tension there on a national news level they wanted to pitch white versus black.

But you're 100% right about the forms and I have seen just how right up close and personal. The GAO seems to have decided Hispanic isn't an ethnic group. in fact they just made ATF change their 4473 form to split the ethnicity question into two parts b/c they had Hispanic/Latino broken out from "White". Now part (a) is "Hispanic" or "Non-Hispanic" and in (b) on ethnicity there is no Latino/Hispanic option, but "White" and "Native American". I can see that being an issue though b/c as you said many Hispanics see themselves of mixed race between those two. But they made ATF change that form, which was a big deal to change, just to make Hispanic a non-ethnicity group in the records.

I'd say the author is half right. "white Hispanic" could theoretically be a group, Zimmerman could be considered "white", but in reality most Hispanics identify themselves as a separate ethnic group b/c most Hispanics genetically are a mix of White and Native American ethnic groups. I disagree with the feds on this one as I think most Hispanics do.

But folks should read the blatant editing done by NBC and the New York Times of the 911 call clearly done to make Zimmerman sound like he was profiling. he said "He is black" ONLY in response to a question by the 911 operator to identify his race and gave him the options of "white, Hispanic, black" in the question. They both cut out the question and his prior description of the person as acting like he's on drugs to make it sound like he came up with "black" as the reason he was suspicious of him when that was NOT what was said.

It was a blatant fabrication, beyond outrageous.

[CitizenBBN]

Outside of the specifics of the tragic incident, the main problem I have with what this case turned into is that it has created / propagated a myth that black youth are at high risk of violence from whites, as if the KKK/lynching era is still in full swing with white bigots enabled by concealed carry laws and protected by stand-your-ground statutes so they can kill young black people with impunity. I'm seeing well educated people buying into this, and it's a lie. Some of it is that their politics are such that any reason to invalidate liberal (in the classic sense) gun and self-defense laws is a good thing in their view; but I think a lot of them believe it fundamentally.

Black youth are at high risk of being victimized by violence.... from other black youth. Do other factors play into that - racism, availability of weapons, poverty, etc. - sure, but the white vigilante stalking and killing African American teens is a bogeyman created by the media and certain activists.

This. 1000 times this.

How "stand your ground" and concealed carry became a white on black violence issue, or a license to do it the way the NAACP is behaving, is beyond me and completely absurd.

I can't decide if guys like Sharpton are that stupid or that smart, but how otherwise intelligent people don't see the falsehood being perpetrated on them is beyond me. I can only assume they have no real experience outside their suburban lives and just have that little clue what life is like in the neighborhoods where they never go.

[badrose]

This. 1000 times this.

How "stand your ground" and concealed carry became a white on black violence issue, or a license to do it the way the NAACP is behaving, is beyond me and completely absurd.

I can't decide if guys like Sharpton are that stupid or that smart, but how otherwise intelligent people don't see the falsehood being perpetrated on them is beyond me. I can only assume they have no real experience outside their suburban lives and just have that little clue what life is like in the neighborhoods where they never go.

Sharpton and others like him make their living perpetuating it. What bothers me is that so many gobble it up like a pint of Founder's Favorite from Cold Stone Creamery.

[Darrell KSR]

In America, we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. George Zimmerman has not been proven guilty.

A until B.
No "B"
Therefore "A".

The verdicts are "guilty" or "not guilty." Not guilty verdict means only that the prosecution did not prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is 100% not "innocent." O.J. Simpson was not "innocent" of the killing of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, but he was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

He was, however, the killer of both.

[bigsky]

The verdicts are "guilty" or "not guilty." Not guilty verdict means only that the prosecution did not prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is 100% not "innocent." O.J. Simpson was not "innocent" of the killing of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, but he was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

He was, however, the killer of both.

it's called a "presumption of innocence", not a "presumption of not guilty". Americans are innocent until proven guilty. Innocent is what we are when we wake up in the morning . So if a person isn't found "guilty," he or she remains innocent. A jury doesn't have to find a defendant "innocent" because they are already innocent.

You're guilty if you're found guilty. But you remain innocent if the jury says "not guilty".

Even OJ.

[badrose]

Badrose, in regard to the link you posted. The main theme seems to be "Zimmerman isn't white, he's Hispanic" however Hispanic is an ethnicity not a race. Look at the Census or most government forms. Hispanic or Latino is often broken down into Hispanic - Caucasian and Non-Caucasian. Most Hispanics self-identify as "other" and are descended from a mix of Spanish, local natives, etc.

Making the issue about the "white" Zimmerman was wrong, but mostly because it was wrong to make it about race, not because of nitpicking over whether Zimmerman is "white." Would it have served any good purpose to focus on his Hispanic ethnicity? I can tell you there may be more black-Hispanic tension in a lot of communities than Black-(non-Hispanic white.) I've seen it with my own eyes, and from community leaders whom I've heard speak in the same kind of racist terms that white bigots used against blacks 40 years ago. Anyway, getting derailed here...

Now, I think for Zimmerman himself it was a disservice in that combined with his name it isolated him from the Hispanic community.

It was no mistake that the press used "white' in their description of Zimmerman. This whole thing was designed to start riots, just like Sharpton is now calling for protests in 100 cities. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journal...-in-100-Cities

[UKHistory]

Bigsky articulated my position on the innocense conversation.

it's called a "presumption of innocence", not a "presumption of not guilty". Americans are innocent until proven guilty. Innocent is what we are when we wake up in the morning . So if a person isn't found "guilty," he or she remains innocent. A jury doesn't have to find a defendant "innocent" because they are already innocent.

You're guilty if you're found guilty. But you remain innocent if the jury says "not guilty".

Even OJ.

[blueboss]

I don't get the "profile" charges/accusations. It was reported that two men broke into one of the houses not long before the Martin incident and IIRC they were described as two young balck men wearing dark clothes/hoodies. Martin wasn't being profilied he just happen to fit the descriptions of the ones involved in the previous break in.

If a bank robbery has just occured and the suspects were identified as two black males and the car that the perps fled in was identified as being a green Toyota would the police be profiling if thet were pulling over green Toyotas with two black males or would thay be following strong leads? Same if the reported bank robbers were two white males reported racing away in a green Toyota. How is that "profiling"?

[suncat05]

If 2 black males in a green Toyota that may have been involved in an armed robbery of a bank is given to law enforcement, that is a description of possible suspects.........not profiling. And from my point of view, profiling is pretty hard to do, given the diverse nature of our nation and its communities.

Profiling is a vague term, at least to me. After 9-11 we learned who the bad guys were and we started hunting them down. That isn't profiling, that's using all available information and attacking them for either capture or killing. Now, not ÀLL people who fit that same description are guilty of being terrorists. But if you treat them ALL the same, then that's profiling.

Just my take on this.

[CitizenBBN]

It turns out they were stopping every car driving down that particular sidewalk that day, and that's profiling, and profiling is wrong....

[dan_bgblue]

It turns out they were stopping every car driving down that particular sidewalk that day, and that's profiling, and profiling is wrong....

I see what you did there, but have to admit I had to read it twice to catch it.