Donald Trump committing voter fraud?

[Basket Case]

If OBama had helped challenge Hillary’s loss to Trump using the office of the President in every way to claim a Republican conspiracy to commit fraud I have a feeling those here would be in Washington with picks and axes.

And that was a close election.

Nah, this just means folks support whatever has to be done in hopes of overturning the election in most cases. That’s where America has come to. One man given power and complete trust who has shown no objection to misleading people to accomplish his goals and will not hesitate to fire or harass anyone who disagrees within his own party.
And most supporters refuse to draw any line as to what they accept from him.
Often even above American tradition and principles.

IMHO.

Obama did something much worse. He used the power of the government to secretly spy on the opposition. This was the 2nd time he used a government agency(IRS) against political opposition. The fact that this isn't completely and utterly unacceptable to some just proves to me that there is a chasm that may never be bridged. If you (they) won't speak out about these morally reprehensible actions I'm afraid we are headed down a path were things will escalate in contentiousness until there is no turning back.

I do think it is somewhat of a clown show. I also think the key point here is that the election process isn't transparent and efficient but for a handful of states has merit. Every state should have a transparent and efficient process that we can all have faith in. Trump doesn't have to concede and can certainly wait for certification. For the (D)s to claim the high road here is absurd.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I am hugely disappointed in half the population pushing for a socialist government.
Pushing for handouts day after day and trying to ruin what America was built on.
Pride and hardwork.
Biden has had his hands in other countries pockets for 47 years and we turn the other cheek and post day after day that it doesn’t matter no one cares well I care he is a criminal and should be prosecuted.

Kentucky and many other southern states only survive based on handouts and social programs.

I am ALL for limiting the number of dollars that states receive from the federal government limited to the dollars in which they put in.

How about you?

[catmanjack]

Of course I am, stand on your own and earn the respect.

[kingcat]

I'm not declaring any high road as democrat. But I am as an American.

This country is not a farce as her enemies claim..nor a nation where "We the People" is just saying to keep it's citizens in check.

Now, many republicans are eating their own to prop up Donald Trump's conspiracy theories and wild claims and willing to support anything he does and condemn anyone he might condemn along the way. Without any proof needed.
And because one man, who we know fires or brings pressure to bare on anyone who might disagree with him, claims America is a cesspool's of deep state corruption and rigged elections...many choose to trust him over our nations government and support electoral retaliation against a completely unproven accusation to maintain power against the will of the people. When if another nation accused us of the same it would be met with united hostility and likely sanctions along with ongoing mistrust. And if they personally interfered with that process would probably meet swift military action

Contesting an election is one thing...spewing vile accusations at the legitimacy of this country's voice is another. Shame if that line in the sand of patriotism is not drawn.

And all it requires of anyone is am, If true..dont go there Mr. President. ..which I have not heard.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Lies, hypocrisy and delusion summed up...

His response was to spy on Trump and haves his administration set up a sting operation on his staff.

So when should we await the announcement from the Democrats that, after a complete fabrication of Russian collusion, Trump's election was in fact completely legitimate and they are officially apologizing for people like Adam Schiff falsely claiming to have evidence of wrongdoing?

Half of this country is convinced Trump won through some nefarious means, and the Democrats spent 4 years beating the message home. Now you're surprised people on the other side may think the same thing?


Sure he's a petulant, narcissistic egomaniac. So is Governor Newsome, so is Pelosi, so is Schumer, so is Cuomo, and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is a bigger egomaniac than Hillary Clinton.

I don't like the guy, I'm not defending him. I want him to get off the stage and let the Republican party re-focus around a Libertarian agenda without him in the way.

Trump doing what he is doing is absolutely no more damaging than the Russian hoax, or the FBI destroying their credibility with political actions, or current boasts by people who already voted that they will move to Georgia to vote again.

Why? so we can stop acting like everything he does is the end of the world, a "threat to democracy", etc. that's all hyperbole.

Trump is doing to Biden EXACTLY, no more no less, what the Left did to him.


Personally I've been consistent. I was outraged over Democrats pulling out all the stops, and I have never supported Trump and would like him to move on b/c he's a petulant child.

They didn't overturn it with votes, they overturned it with the Russia collusion hoax.

I'm all for fixing it, but the claim and the Mueller investigation wasn't about just that, it was an effort to tie Trump directly to it to undermine his election. What impact they really have however is very debatable.

The night Trump won the Democrats called not for unity but for the #Resistance. Burn the bridges and the crops, fight to the bitter end.

Oh, and Hillary has said she regrets conceding, and told Biden not to if in the same situation.

This is where you and those of your beliefs and sides are deluded.

I believe that if Trump and this team DOES NOT force investigation and find the fraud that the will of the American People has not been followed.

IF votes were dumped or manipulated by software, those are false votes and means my vote has been disenfranchised. IF votes are allowed with out proper signature verification, my vote has been disenfranchised.

So, it is YOU who are not wanting to ensure the will of the people.

I am hugely disappointed in half the population pushing for a socialist government.
Pushing for handouts day after day and trying to ruin what America was built on.
Pride and hardwork.
Biden has had his hands in other countries pockets for 47 years and we turn the other cheek and post day after day that it doesn’t matter no one cares well I care he is a criminal and should be prosecuted.

This is an absolute clown show. \


Did you feel the same way about the impeachment process that was staged to undo the will of the people?

That my kind sir was clown show

Obama did something much worse. He used the power of the government to secretly spy on the opposition.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Of course I am, stand on your own and earn the respect.

Then why are you not standing up and say to Kentucky and all the other states to return those federal tax dollars?

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I'm just going to say this, because its been driving me crazy.

But, the levels that Donald Trump has gone to that we all just allow and expect are not only unprecedented, but are just flat wrong. And we are all so numb to his antics, and dismiss his twitter as "just words and not actions" that we can't see the forrest from the trees.

The fact that he won't concede is insanity. Yes, it was predictable. Yes, we all know it matches his personality. He's an elitist. He's a narcissist. And he's admitted in interviews he's the worst kind of loser.
He warned us all this was coming. Not just on voter fraud. He refused to answer in 2016 when they asked if he would concede if he lost to Hillary. He refused to answer in multiple debates this year if there would be a peaceful transition of power.

But just because we expect it and just because people dismiss it doesn't make it any less striking.

The acting President of the United States is refusing to admit he lost an election that he very clearly lost by millions of votes in multiple states. And beyond that, he is actively spreading disinformation, filing frivolous lawsuits that are being tossed out of court one after another and has yet to produce one iota of evidence of voter fraud.

Look, if some of you guys want to stay on this, "but there is voter fraud and we should fix it" line of thinking....fine. Do it NOT when Trump lost. Do it in 2016. Do it the 4 years he's President. I am ALL for that. Where there are problems, let's fix them.

But, refusing to acknowledge the VERY clear will of the people is anti-democracy, autocratic and fascist. Pressuring voting boards to refuse to certify the results of an election is just plain wrong. Tweeting lie after lie to your millions of followers is wrong. His words do matter. Because his words lead to actions. And these actions are incredibly harmful.

We are about to enter the darkest weeks of this pandemic yet. And instead of leading us through it, he's obsessed with trying to overthrow an election that he lost. Some of you have called him boorish and a bully. But this is far beyond that. This is outright democratic sabotage. And us all acknowledging that there are things in the voting process that need to be fixed is not mutually exclusive to saying that his behavior is wrong and frankly, scary.

And people just justify and excuse it all. But the Democrats did this. Russia! The Media! Are we not capable of just talking about the actions of the President of the United States without justifying them based on other people's actions (even if wrong)? He's the President (for 2 more months). No one else is.

Ben Sasse has a backbone. And he called Trump exactly what we all see. When will some of the other Republican leaders stand up and say, "enough is enough. The people voted. We will respect their vote."? They all know this election will not change. We all know this election will not change. And yet, people just act like his behavior is just "Trump being Trump".
This is dangerous. Its not bringing "light to election issues". Its doing the complete opposite. Its ensuring they will never get fixed because he's now cemented them as completely partisan.

If you actually care about making sure there is no election fraud...this needs to stop. This is the opposite of fixing it. Everyone (the world, world leaders, most of America) except for his most ardent supporters see this as exactly what it is: a man who has never cared more about the country than he has himself...and is showing it in spades in his final days.

To quote his acting attorney (before she was working for him): "I could spend a full-time job just responding to the ridiculously illogical, inconsistent, and blatantly stupid arguments supporting Trump. But here's the thing: his supporters DON'T CARE about facts or logic. They aren't seeking truth. Trump probably could shoot someone in the middle of NYC and not lose support. And this is the cumulative reason why this nation is in such terrible shape: We don't have truth seekers; we have narcissists."

Very well said.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there were so many replies of "what about ..." that are false talking points from Trump and right wing media.

[catmanjack]

It’s my damn tax money, Stu you are very delusional, I understand where puma is coming from but not you at all.

[catmanjack]

I see you arm and arm with the squad, a great group of dems!

[CitizenBBN]

Now, many republicans are eating their own to prop up Donald Trump's conspiracy theories and wild claims and willing to support anything he does and condemn anyone he might condemn along the way. Without any proof needed.
And because one man, who we know fires or brings pressure to bare on anyone who might disagree with him, claims America is a cesspool's of deep state corruption and rigged elections...many choose to trust him over our nations government and support electoral retaliation against a completely unproven accusation to maintain power against the will of the people.

You see the irony of this I hope, having been convinced with no evidence whatsoever of Trump having colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election?

As for the "deep state", no one would be more believing or fearful of such a thing than our Founders. The whole goal of our system was to disperse this power they have accumulated in Washington b/c it's basically a given that they will be corrupted by the power.

I knew long before Trump came along that there was rampant self interest dealing and corruption in Washington. Foreign governments didn't give hundreds of millions to the Clinton Foundation b/c they care so much for Haiti. The second Hillary was out of power they all stopped by complete coincidence despite Haiti being just as bad off as ever.

I don't "trust [Trump] over our nation's government". I just don't trust government at all, and neither did Thomas JEfferson or John Adams or Patrick Henry or Thomas Paine.

Neither did George Orwell, Ray Bradbury or a host of others. So I'm in very good company.

What's interesting to me is you trusted Adam Schiff and others who accused Trump of collusion, with no produced evidence whatsoever, and we now know they flat out lied, and yet we're supposed to just blindly keep on trusting our leaders. Why? They lie all the time. They're pandering hypocrites, Trump included. Why would we trust any of them?

Trump isn't creating this distrust, any more than he created this populist shift. He's not the cause, he's the result. People shouldn't trust government, and after the Russian hoax it's no surprise that many on the right trust it even less than before.

I never trusted it, and don't trust big corporations either. Power corrupts. It's that simple.

[CitizenBBN]

Very well said.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there were so many replies of "what about ..." that are false talking points from Trump and right wing media.

They aren't "talking points", and there is your condescension showing again. We aren't being told to say these things and repeating them like lapdogs. If Trump hadn't questioned a single vote I would believe the same exact things I believe about our process, etc.

These "talking points" have been issues for our process long before Trump came along.

As for the deflecting thing, you guys want to have a trial with some pretty narrow rules of evidence. The truth is what Trump is doing is far more legal than the Russia hoax method of challenging an election, and in the end this is nothing bout a delay and even an annoyance.

He's suing for recounts. OMG, it's the end of democracy!

Just like how questioning the judiciary when Trump does it is the end of the world, but calling for court packing is all perfectly OK.

As for Trump, it's inaccurate to look at his actions in a vacuum, though that has been the position of his enemies all along.

"Oh my God, he's undermined the Supreme Court and Democracy by criticizing their decision".

"Uh, every President has criticized the Supreme Court from time to time, from Obama to Madison".

"You're just trying to deflect from what evil thing Trump has done."

No, we're trying to put Trump's actions into actual perspective.

What you want is a trial where we try Joe for shooting Tom, but we can't submit into evidence that Tom was breaking into Joe's house at the time. "This is about what Joe did, not what Tom did." Uh huh.

The Democrats staged a 4 year attempt to undermine a legitimately elected President by casting doubt on his loyalties and outright claiming the election was the result of foreign influence and deep corruption at the highest levels of our elected offices.

Not one lamented how that would hurt democracy or our institutions.

Now we need to sit that aside and focus on how Trump has taken that playbook and is running the same kind of plays. Of course except Trump is following the law while the FBI and others did not.

When Trump criticized the judiciary it was the end of the world. Now the Dems call for court packing and it's somehow not the same at all.

This is the same thing. When the Left undermines an election with nonsense it's OK, when Trump does it we need to just talk about Trump.

[kingcat]

I in no way mean to lump everyone into a group. Remember I am not just talking to my friends here I am talking to three family member and my partner in the cd's production, as well as others I am acquainted with. And the few pundits and followers of "The Donald" In as generalized way as is possible in a discussion where we disagree.
The first four I mentioned are Qanon followers.

Not everyone here, or elsewhere, is being singled out in any way. In most instances I don't have proof of how convinced anyone is of anything they might post.
Nor whether they may have drawn such a line as I mentioned but will not mention it here, because it isn't met presently.

I do feel strongly about this, but let's again try not to read each other too harshly on such a sensitive subject. We can disagree without overt anger if we try.
I respect an opinion even if I think it very wrong. But I of all people know how easy it is to consider yourself being attacked, when your view is the intended target.

A tough distinction to make.

[dan_bgblue]

The first four I mentioned are Qanon followers.

I am sorry about that but I do wish you would not bring them or their misguided ideas into the discussion here. I for one am trying to contribute to a sensible discussion, and I can not do that when QAnon is being made part of the discussio0n.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

It’s my damn tax money, Stu you are very delusional, I understand where puma is coming from but not you at all.

It’s my tax dollars too being spent in KY.

Do you not understand that for every dollar that Kentuckians pay in taxes, they receive two dollars back?

If there are people that complain about how their tax dollars are being spent, it should start and end with the people in states that are subsidizing states like KY.

Your tax dollars don’t do anything outside your state.

That shouldn’t be something difficult to understand.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

They aren't "talking points", and there is your condescension showing again.

They are talking points and void of fact. And, once again, you are perceiving condescension with simply not standing for BS.

I made a point in another thread last week about watching Fox News. There are persuasive positions on the right, but they are SO diluted with lies.

[kingcat]

I am sorry about that but I do wish you would not bring them or their misguided ideas into the discussion here. I for one am trying to contribute to a sensible discussion, and I can not do that when QAnon is being made part of the discussio0n.

That makes zero sense to me Dan. I was making a point that I believe everyone understood. I did not bring any issue of theirs or Qanons to this board.
My point, which it seems you overlooked, was that everyone responds on an issue having been influenced by their everyday life and the people they know. And they should not take it too personally.

Something I believe we should all aspire to comprehend. But I guess it did not work.
It was an effort at moderation that you have an obvious problem with (poor as it might be), and nothing related to discussing issues. Meant to help, not to hurt.

I'm always interested in what you have to add to this or any discussion.

[kingcat]

As I look back on it, my post above which was meant to help (since I added to the argumentative atmosphere myself)...and I digress. It is perhaps the most longwinded attempt to say something simple in the history of writing.

Forgive me

[CitizenBBN]

They are talking points and void of fact. And, once again, you are perceiving condescension with simply not standing for BS.

I made a point in another thread last week about watching Fox News. There are persuasive positions on the right, but they are SO diluted with lies.

I don't watch Fox News. OR any spoonfed news drivel.

They aren't talking points, as I learned about them in the study of US history and from the simple common sense of being able to see how to game a system.

And yes that's your condescension. You don't engage with the issue with analysis, you dismiss, mostly with logical fallacies.

There are numerous obvious ways to cheat in an election. I don't know how much it can be done in sheer quantity, but the failure points are obvious and I've railed against them since long before Trump arrived.

In fact poor backward Kentucky is one of the few states to have at least a decent election system in place, since many counties are automated, ID is required and you have to be registered to vote in your district.

[CitizenBBN]

It is perhaps the most longwinded attempt to say something simple in the history of writing.

Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick.

[kingcat]

Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick.

[CitizenBBN]

lol

[ukpumacat]

Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick.

Ha

[ukpumacat]

I give Mitt credit here. Granted, he’s independently wealthy, in a safe seat and loved by his state. So it’s easier for him to speak out than others.
But, he’s a genuine conservative and it’s nice to see someone say it on that side of the aisle.

https://twitter.com/mittromney/statu...447573504?s=21

Ps. Joni Erst did today as well. I genuinely think that presser jumped the shark for a lot these folks. We will see others speak out in the next few days.

[ukpumacat]

Sasse speaks out now as well. Keep em coming.

https://twitter.com/foxreports/statu...065878016?s=21

“We are a nation of laws, not tweets.”

Haha. He is not a fan of the man.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I give Mitt credit here. Granted, he’s independently wealthy, in a safe seat and loved by his state. So it’s easier for him to speak out than others.
But, he’s a genuine conservative and it’s nice to see someone say it on that side of the aisle.

https://twitter.com/mittromney/statu...447573504?s=21

Ps. Joni Erst did today as well. I genuinely think that presser jumped the shark for a lot these folks. We will see others speak out in the next few days.

You beat me to it was just about to post the same thing.


These are strong and accurate words. It's not just "threat to democracy" hyperbole.

To minimize or deny what is happening in these current times shows a real lack of understanding and knowledge of history. To imply that this is just another partisan era of politics, just another ego is, or this is not as bad as this or that really shows a lack of ability to comprehend the severity and consequences of the division and how one person can influence. It is beyond trying to understand how we got here and more about how we can, over time, get to a better place.

[CitizenBBN]

You beat me to it was just about to post the same thing.


These are strong and accurate words. It's not just "threat to democracy" hyperbole.

To minimize or deny what is happening in these current times shows a real lack of understanding and knowledge of history. To imply that this is just another partisan era of politics, just another ego is, or this is not as bad as this or that really shows a lack of ability to comprehend the severity and consequences of the division and how one person can influence. It is beyond trying to understand how we got here and more about how we can, over time, get to a better place.

We can start with this.

I have acknowledged on here from the outset that what Trump is doing is political. I do think there is fraud in our election system, and thought it way before Trump was on the scene, but I don't know how much.

But what Trump is doing is definitely political.

Can you now acknowledge that the entire Russia/Mueller investigation was also purely political, that it was conceived for political purposes and also undermined the legitimacy of a duly elected President for pure political purposes?

I criticize the GOP on here frequently, and I know almost all of what we see from both parties is just political theater. Liberal leaders don't lie awake at night worried about the homeless sleeping in the streets, and conservative leaders don't toss and turn over the national debt. They just worry about winning and staying in power.

If we can stop buying their puppet show, and stop with the demonization of anyone who dares disagree with our ideology, then we can probably make some progress on narrowing that division.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, and not everyone who disagrees with me is a Communist. We can start there.

[ukpumacat]

We can start with this.

I have acknowledged on here from the outset that what Trump is doing is political. I do think there is fraud in our election system, and thought it way before Trump was on the scene, but I don't know how much.

But what Trump is doing is definitely political.

Can you now acknowledge that the entire Russia/Mueller investigation was also purely political, that it was conceived for political purposes and also undermined the legitimacy of a duly elected President for pure political purposes?

I criticize the GOP on here frequently, and I know almost all of what we see from both parties is just political theater. Liberal leaders don't lie awake at night worried about the homeless sleeping in the streets, and conservative leaders don't toss and turn over the national debt. They just worry about winning and staying in power.

If we can stop buying their puppet show, and stop with the demonization of anyone who dares disagree with our ideology, then we can probably make some progress on narrowing that division.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, and not everyone who disagrees with me is a Communist. We can start there.

Chuck, I thought the impeachment was stupid when it happened and have posted this for a while. For a few reasons. Yes, like you said, it was politically driven. But more than that (from my pov which was not your point)...it was politically stupid.
The House knew there was zero chance the Senate was impeaching him. So the entire point was political theatre. To get back at him. I thought it was terribly conceived and I thought it was harmful to Democratic causes. And I think it hurt down the ballot in this election.
I also disagreed with how they handled the Kavanaugh hearing. I am all for (and was with Kavanaugh) investigating sexual misconduct. I am not for public spectacles that are done purely for political reasons. That was a clown show. And all it did was further divide the country.
I am simply not a fan of Pelosi or Schumer and haven't been for some time. I am also not a fan of Mitch.
This division did not start with Trump. And it won't end with him either.

Last thing...as much as we can agree on some election changes...I would love to see some primary changes. We have a system that drives candidates to their extremes and rewards the most extreme. This is going to get worse, not better.

[CitizenBBN]

Chuck, I thought the impeachment was stupid when it happened and have posted this for a while. For a few reasons. Yes, like you said, it was politically driven. But more than that (from my pov which was not your point)...it was politically stupid.
The House knew there was zero chance the Senate was impeaching him. So the entire point was political theatre. To get back at him. I thought it was terribly conceived and I thought it was harmful to Democratic causes. And I think it hurt down the ballot in this election.
I also disagreed with how they handled the Kavanaugh hearing. I am all for (and was with Kavanaugh) investigating sexual misconduct. I am not for public spectacles that are done purely for political reasons. That was a clown show. And all it did was further divide the country.
I am simply not a fan of Pelosi or Schumer and haven't been for some time. I am also not a fan of Mitch.
This division did not start with Trump. And it won't end with him either.

Last thing...as much as we can agree on some election changes...I would love to see some primary changes. We have a system that drives candidates to their extremes and rewards the most extreme. This is going to get worse, not better.

You and I have agreed on both modern impeachments.

But the question I asked was tougher. Can you admit the entire Russia/Mueller thing was a political concoction? that's the one that most of my liberal friends have to swallow hard on.

But it was. First, every politician in Washington has ties to foreign lobbyists. Hillary's campaign manager's brother is a registered foreign agent for Heaven's sake, it's everywhere. It was well known Russia was running bots etc. in the election, but there was no tie to Trump and they knew it.

Then we spend $50 million with all that prosecutorial power and find nothing. not a single case of collusion, even by the lower ranks.

And people still cling to it as if it's true. It was never true. It was a political construct pushed by the politicians and media to undermine Trump and tie him up politically.

If they wanted to investigate obvious ties to foreign powers they would have gone after the CLintons, who took hundreds of millions for a foundation they ran, with an 8 page letter from one of their handlers admitting to influence peddling, with cash payments from Russian interests for Bill Clinton speeches, and with Uranium One being approved. Not to mention destroyed emails and devices, etc. IF ever there was a case to investigate we had one, and nothing.

All of this is politics. Pelosi doesn't give a **** about the homeless of San Francisco, Newsom doesn't care if your holiday sucks or not.

The reason Trump and Bernie rose to prominence is b/c people are figuring out that our established elites don't are about us and are just speaking platitudes on both sides. The Tea Party, Bernie's rise, all of it is a POpulist revolt against the ruling class, b/c on both sides that ruling class is selling us out.

It's not left v. right, it's top v. bottom.

Which is why I'm a libertarian. B/c it diffuses the top from having power over us.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Where there are problems, let's fix them.

All Voter Fraud Matters

[ukpumacat]

Btw, Andrew Guiliani has Covid. He was part of Trump's legal team that has been holed up in a small meeting room. It probably explains why Rudy was sweating profusely (not kidding) in yesterday's clown show. He likely has it as well. Which means their entire legal team was exposed. And anyone else in that tiny room for the press conference yesterday.


https://www.axios.com/trump-giuliani...source=twitter