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11-19-2020, 04:55 PM #31
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Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
Obama did something much worse. He used the power of the government to secretly spy on the opposition. This was the 2nd time he used a government agency(IRS) against political opposition. The fact that this isn't completely and utterly unacceptable to some just proves to me that there is a chasm that may never be bridged. If you (they) won't speak out about these morally reprehensible actions I'm afraid we are headed down a path were things will escalate in contentiousness until there is no turning back.
I do think it is somewhat of a clown show. I also think the key point here is that the election process isn't transparent and efficient but for a handful of states has merit. Every state should have a transparent and efficient process that we can all have faith in. Trump doesn't have to concede and can certainly wait for certification. For the (D)s to claim the high road here is absurd.
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11-19-2020, 05:09 PM #32
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
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11-19-2020, 05:15 PM #33
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
Of course I am, stand on your own and earn the respect.
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11-19-2020, 05:22 PM #34
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
I'm not declaring any high road as democrat. But I am as an American.
This country is not a farce as her enemies claim..nor a nation where "We the People" is just saying to keep it's citizens in check.
Now, many republicans are eating their own to prop up Donald Trump's conspiracy theories and wild claims and willing to support anything he does and condemn anyone he might condemn along the way. Without any proof needed.
And because one man, who we know fires or brings pressure to bare on anyone who might disagree with him, claims America is a cesspool's of deep state corruption and rigged elections...many choose to trust him over our nations government and support electoral retaliation against a completely unproven accusation to maintain power against the will of the people. When if another nation accused us of the same it would be met with united hostility and likely sanctions along with ongoing mistrust. And if they personally interfered with that process would probably meet swift military action
Contesting an election is one thing...spewing vile accusations at the legitimacy of this country's voice is another. Shame if that line in the sand of patriotism is not drawn.
And all it requires of anyone is am, If true..dont go there Mr. President. ..which I have not heard.Last edited by kingcat; 11-19-2020 at 05:25 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
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11-19-2020, 05:24 PM #35
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
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11-19-2020, 05:25 PM #36
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11-19-2020, 05:30 PM #37
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11-19-2020, 05:30 PM #38
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
It’s my damn tax money, Stu you are very delusional, I understand where puma is coming from but not you at all.
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11-19-2020, 05:32 PM #39
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
I see you arm and arm with the squad, a great group of dems!
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11-19-2020, 05:37 PM #40
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
You see the irony of this I hope, having been convinced with no evidence whatsoever of Trump having colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election?
As for the "deep state", no one would be more believing or fearful of such a thing than our Founders. The whole goal of our system was to disperse this power they have accumulated in Washington b/c it's basically a given that they will be corrupted by the power.
I knew long before Trump came along that there was rampant self interest dealing and corruption in Washington. Foreign governments didn't give hundreds of millions to the Clinton Foundation b/c they care so much for Haiti. The second Hillary was out of power they all stopped by complete coincidence despite Haiti being just as bad off as ever.
I don't "trust [Trump] over our nation's government". I just don't trust government at all, and neither did Thomas JEfferson or John Adams or Patrick Henry or Thomas Paine.
Neither did George Orwell, Ray Bradbury or a host of others. So I'm in very good company.
What's interesting to me is you trusted Adam Schiff and others who accused Trump of collusion, with no produced evidence whatsoever, and we now know they flat out lied, and yet we're supposed to just blindly keep on trusting our leaders. Why? They lie all the time. They're pandering hypocrites, Trump included. Why would we trust any of them?
Trump isn't creating this distrust, any more than he created this populist shift. He's not the cause, he's the result. People shouldn't trust government, and after the Russian hoax it's no surprise that many on the right trust it even less than before.
I never trusted it, and don't trust big corporations either. Power corrupts. It's that simple.People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
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11-19-2020, 06:30 PM #41
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
They aren't "talking points", and there is your condescension showing again. We aren't being told to say these things and repeating them like lapdogs. If Trump hadn't questioned a single vote I would believe the same exact things I believe about our process, etc.
These "talking points" have been issues for our process long before Trump came along.
As for the deflecting thing, you guys want to have a trial with some pretty narrow rules of evidence. The truth is what Trump is doing is far more legal than the Russia hoax method of challenging an election, and in the end this is nothing bout a delay and even an annoyance.
He's suing for recounts. OMG, it's the end of democracy!
Just like how questioning the judiciary when Trump does it is the end of the world, but calling for court packing is all perfectly OK.
As for Trump, it's inaccurate to look at his actions in a vacuum, though that has been the position of his enemies all along.
"Oh my God, he's undermined the Supreme Court and Democracy by criticizing their decision".
"Uh, every President has criticized the Supreme Court from time to time, from Obama to Madison".
"You're just trying to deflect from what evil thing Trump has done."
No, we're trying to put Trump's actions into actual perspective.
What you want is a trial where we try Joe for shooting Tom, but we can't submit into evidence that Tom was breaking into Joe's house at the time. "This is about what Joe did, not what Tom did." Uh huh.
The Democrats staged a 4 year attempt to undermine a legitimately elected President by casting doubt on his loyalties and outright claiming the election was the result of foreign influence and deep corruption at the highest levels of our elected offices.
Not one lamented how that would hurt democracy or our institutions.
Now we need to sit that aside and focus on how Trump has taken that playbook and is running the same kind of plays. Of course except Trump is following the law while the FBI and others did not.
When Trump criticized the judiciary it was the end of the world. Now the Dems call for court packing and it's somehow not the same at all.
This is the same thing. When the Left undermines an election with nonsense it's OK, when Trump does it we need to just talk about Trump.People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
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11-19-2020, 06:31 PM #42
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
I in no way mean to lump everyone into a group. Remember I am not just talking to my friends here I am talking to three family member and my partner in the cd's production, as well as others I am acquainted with. And the few pundits and followers of "The Donald" In as generalized way as is possible in a discussion where we disagree.
The first four I mentioned are Qanon followers.
Not everyone here, or elsewhere, is being singled out in any way. In most instances I don't have proof of how convinced anyone is of anything they might post.
Nor whether they may have drawn such a line as I mentioned but will not mention it here, because it isn't met presently.
I do feel strongly about this, but let's again try not to read each other too harshly on such a sensitive subject. We can disagree without overt anger if we try.
I respect an opinion even if I think it very wrong. But I of all people know how easy it is to consider yourself being attacked, when your view is the intended target.
A tough distinction to make.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
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11-19-2020, 07:47 PM #43
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
The first four I mentioned are Qanon followers.seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
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11-19-2020, 08:06 PM #44
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
It’s my tax dollars too being spent in KY.
Do you not understand that for every dollar that Kentuckians pay in taxes, they receive two dollars back?
If there are people that complain about how their tax dollars are being spent, it should start and end with the people in states that are subsidizing states like KY.
Your tax dollars don’t do anything outside your state.
That shouldn’t be something difficult to understand.
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11-19-2020, 08:11 PM #45
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
They are talking points and void of fact. And, once again, you are perceiving condescension with simply not standing for BS.
I made a point in another thread last week about watching Fox News. There are persuasive positions on the right, but they are SO diluted with lies.
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11-19-2020, 08:14 PM #46
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
That makes zero sense to me Dan. I was making a point that I believe everyone understood. I did not bring any issue of theirs or Qanons to this board.
My point, which it seems you overlooked, was that everyone responds on an issue having been influenced by their everyday life and the people they know. And they should not take it too personally.
Something I believe we should all aspire to comprehend. But I guess it did not work.
It was an effort at moderation that you have an obvious problem with (poor as it might be), and nothing related to discussing issues. Meant to help, not to hurt.
I'm always interested in what you have to add to this or any discussion.Last edited by kingcat; 11-19-2020 at 08:26 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
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11-19-2020, 08:45 PM #47
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
As I look back on it, my post above which was meant to help (since I added to the argumentative atmosphere myself)...and I digress. It is perhaps the most longwinded attempt to say something simple in the history of writing.
Forgive me
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
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11-19-2020, 08:51 PM #48
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
I don't watch Fox News. OR any spoonfed news drivel.
They aren't talking points, as I learned about them in the study of US history and from the simple common sense of being able to see how to game a system.
And yes that's your condescension. You don't engage with the issue with analysis, you dismiss, mostly with logical fallacies.
There are numerous obvious ways to cheat in an election. I don't know how much it can be done in sheer quantity, but the failure points are obvious and I've railed against them since long before Trump arrived.
In fact poor backward Kentucky is one of the few states to have at least a decent election system in place, since many counties are automated, ID is required and you have to be registered to vote in your district.People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
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11-19-2020, 08:52 PM #49
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11-19-2020, 08:56 PM #50
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
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11-19-2020, 09:21 PM #51
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
lol
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
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11-19-2020, 09:55 PM #52
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11-19-2020, 09:57 PM #53
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
I give Mitt credit here. Granted, he’s independently wealthy, in a safe seat and loved by his state. So it’s easier for him to speak out than others.
But, he’s a genuine conservative and it’s nice to see someone say it on that side of the aisle.
https://twitter.com/mittromney/statu...447573504?s=21
Ps. Joni Erst did today as well. I genuinely think that presser jumped the shark for a lot these folks. We will see others speak out in the next few days.
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11-19-2020, 10:04 PM #54
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
Sasse speaks out now as well. Keep em coming.
https://twitter.com/foxreports/statu...065878016?s=21
“We are a nation of laws, not tweets.”
Haha. He is not a fan of the man.Last edited by ukpumacat; 11-19-2020 at 10:06 PM.
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11-19-2020, 10:11 PM #55
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
You beat me to it was just about to post the same thing.
These are strong and accurate words. It's not just "threat to democracy" hyperbole.
To minimize or deny what is happening in these current times shows a real lack of understanding and knowledge of history. To imply that this is just another partisan era of politics, just another ego is, or this is not as bad as this or that really shows a lack of ability to comprehend the severity and consequences of the division and how one person can influence. It is beyond trying to understand how we got here and more about how we can, over time, get to a better place.
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11-20-2020, 10:04 AM #56
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
We can start with this.
I have acknowledged on here from the outset that what Trump is doing is political. I do think there is fraud in our election system, and thought it way before Trump was on the scene, but I don't know how much.
But what Trump is doing is definitely political.
Can you now acknowledge that the entire Russia/Mueller investigation was also purely political, that it was conceived for political purposes and also undermined the legitimacy of a duly elected President for pure political purposes?
I criticize the GOP on here frequently, and I know almost all of what we see from both parties is just political theater. Liberal leaders don't lie awake at night worried about the homeless sleeping in the streets, and conservative leaders don't toss and turn over the national debt. They just worry about winning and staying in power.
If we can stop buying their puppet show, and stop with the demonization of anyone who dares disagree with our ideology, then we can probably make some progress on narrowing that division.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, and not everyone who disagrees with me is a Communist. We can start there.People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
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11-20-2020, 11:25 AM #57
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
Chuck, I thought the impeachment was stupid when it happened and have posted this for a while. For a few reasons. Yes, like you said, it was politically driven. But more than that (from my pov which was not your point)...it was politically stupid.
The House knew there was zero chance the Senate was impeaching him. So the entire point was political theatre. To get back at him. I thought it was terribly conceived and I thought it was harmful to Democratic causes. And I think it hurt down the ballot in this election.
I also disagreed with how they handled the Kavanaugh hearing. I am all for (and was with Kavanaugh) investigating sexual misconduct. I am not for public spectacles that are done purely for political reasons. That was a clown show. And all it did was further divide the country.
I am simply not a fan of Pelosi or Schumer and haven't been for some time. I am also not a fan of Mitch.
This division did not start with Trump. And it won't end with him either.
Last thing...as much as we can agree on some election changes...I would love to see some primary changes. We have a system that drives candidates to their extremes and rewards the most extreme. This is going to get worse, not better.~Puma~
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11-20-2020, 11:48 AM #58
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
You and I have agreed on both modern impeachments.
But the question I asked was tougher. Can you admit the entire Russia/Mueller thing was a political concoction? that's the one that most of my liberal friends have to swallow hard on.
But it was. First, every politician in Washington has ties to foreign lobbyists. Hillary's campaign manager's brother is a registered foreign agent for Heaven's sake, it's everywhere. It was well known Russia was running bots etc. in the election, but there was no tie to Trump and they knew it.
Then we spend $50 million with all that prosecutorial power and find nothing. not a single case of collusion, even by the lower ranks.
And people still cling to it as if it's true. It was never true. It was a political construct pushed by the politicians and media to undermine Trump and tie him up politically.
If they wanted to investigate obvious ties to foreign powers they would have gone after the CLintons, who took hundreds of millions for a foundation they ran, with an 8 page letter from one of their handlers admitting to influence peddling, with cash payments from Russian interests for Bill Clinton speeches, and with Uranium One being approved. Not to mention destroyed emails and devices, etc. IF ever there was a case to investigate we had one, and nothing.
All of this is politics. Pelosi doesn't give a **** about the homeless of San Francisco, Newsom doesn't care if your holiday sucks or not.
The reason Trump and Bernie rose to prominence is b/c people are figuring out that our established elites don't are about us and are just speaking platitudes on both sides. The Tea Party, Bernie's rise, all of it is a POpulist revolt against the ruling class, b/c on both sides that ruling class is selling us out.
It's not left v. right, it's top v. bottom.
Which is why I'm a libertarian. B/c it diffuses the top from having power over us.People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
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11-20-2020, 12:13 PM #59
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11-20-2020, 01:15 PM #60
Re: Donald Trump committing voter fraud?
Btw, Andrew Guiliani has Covid. He was part of Trump's legal team that has been holed up in a small meeting room. It probably explains why Rudy was sweating profusely (not kidding) in yesterday's clown show. He likely has it as well. Which means their entire legal team was exposed. And anyone else in that tiny room for the press conference yesterday.
https://www.axios.com/trump-giuliani...source=twitter~Puma~
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