Impreach, censure or nothing???

[DanISSELisdaman]

It would probably be better for the country to just dismiss it and get on with things that really matter, but there's no such thing as working with the democrats, because they don't want to give Trump a win on anything. More than likely, if he is acquitted, they'll drum up some other bogus charge and try to impeach him again, so I say have a Senate trial and call Schiff, the Bidens and the so called whistle blower and dig through their dirty laundry till they find the stink!

[Catonahottinroof]

I would do the same. I’d lay it all out and call every witness necessary to embarrass the other side. Maybe then the 2 sides will learn to work together despite the differences that exist.

It would probably be better for the country to just dismiss it and get on with things that really matter, but there's no such thing as working with the democrats, because they don't want to give Trump a win on anything. More than likely, if he is acquitted, they'll drum up some other bogus charge and try to impeach him again, so I say have a Senate trial and call Schiff, the Bidens and the so called whistle blower and dig through their dirty laundry till they find the stink!

[ukpumacat]

I would do the same. I’d lay it all out and call every witness necessary to embarrass the other side. Maybe then the 2 sides will learn to work together despite the differences that exist.

I'm sure you know this but even that won't change minds on either side. Dems believe he's guilty and nothing will change that. Reps believe he is innocent and nothing will change that. And everyone else isn't paying attention.

That's a broad paintbrush but mostly true.

[Doc]

What a clown show...seriously. It is entertaining as hell. We have involked Elijah Cummings dancing with the angels, "nobody is above the law" dozens of times (except if you are here illegally), we have "a tryant", a constitutional crisis, undermining an election (by Trump, not by the party trying to overturn one), obstruction at an UNPRECIDENTED level (by Trump but not Schiff), the destruction of the constutution (odd coming from the people who want to do away with the electoral college), involked the will of the founding father (those racist slave owners who statues need to be torn down- amazinghow respected they are now for their wisdom), they even brought civil right movement into it (the GOP). It like watching 300 apes taking a dump then slingimg poo at each other.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm sure you know this but even that won't change minds on either side. Dems believe he's guilty and nothing will change that. Reps believe he is innocent and nothing will change that. And everyone else isn't paying attention.

That's a broad paintbrush but mostly true.

No doubt.

The only exception for those in the middle would be to lay out the Biden's corruption.

Was it technically illegal? Probably not, but clearly it's selling access and influence peddling, and I'm all for exposing that on either side of the aisle.

And it could hurt Biden some in the polls if it casts a general doubt on him and his integrity. People will vote for him b/c he seems safe and he can beat Trump. If they can make him less warm and safe feeling, dirty him up, that will help. It may also help to get the word out that what Trump did wasn't even eyebrow raising compared to what goes on, with Biden bragging about his involvement with a prosecutor being fired.

My guess is none of that happens however. Neither McConnell or Graham are mud wrestling politicians. I won't be at all surprised to see the Senate dismiss the whole thing with one vote to not even hold a trial.

And there's a case for that, IF they then follow up working on real policy issues. Work with Trump on some kind of health care proposal, pass it in the Senate using their "special" rules to get a simple majority vote and send it to the House. But I doubt they do that either. They'll sit around in their beltway bubble wondering why Americans don't really much care for either party's leadership.

[CitizenBBN]

What a clown show...seriously. It is entertaining as hell. We have involked Elijah Cummings dancing with the angels, "nobody is above the law" dozens of times (except if you are here illegally), we have "a tryant", a constitutional crisis, undermining an election (by Trump, not by the party trying to overturn one), obstruction at an UNPRECIDENTED level (by Trump but not Schiff), the destruction of the constutution (odd coming from the people who want to do away with the electoral college), involked the will of the founding father (those racist slave owners who statues need to be torn down- amazinghow respected they are now for their wisdom), they even brought civil right movement into it (the GOP). It like watching 300 apes taking a dump then slingimg poo at each other.

The sheer level of hyperbole and outright lying is stunning.

Pelosi invoking the spirit of the Founders and referencing God and prayer more than the Pope was particularly stunningly full of BS. I'm trying to think of a single policy she's supported which would be judged well by the Founders, and like you I'm pretty sure the Democratic party as a whole isn't really big on those old, nasty white privileged slavers as a group.

I'm just not sure who that message was for really. It sure wasn't for the Democratic base, which by and large isn't religious and certainly doesn't look to the Federalist Papers for guiding wisdom in this era. It wasn't for conservatives, who know she's completely full of it even though they do pray more often and believe in the wisdom of the Founders. Was it for independents? Libertarians? Who?

These claims of Trump as a tyrant, a king, etc. Man alive.

Obstruction of Congress? Seriously? What POTUS hasn't refused some request of a Congress with opposing party control since the beginning of the nation? The Congress is still waiting on the documents for Fast and Furious which weren't turned over by the Obama administration even after the DC circuit ordered their release.

Seriously, what PResident doesn't meet these standards for impeachment? What POTUS hasn't invoked privilege at least once in his term?

What President hasn't made foreign policy decisions for his own political benefit? Really? Every other president has been selfless and true in every decision? Go back and do some reading if anyone thinks that's true.

If "obstruction" is now simply not doing whatever Congress asks, and if any foreign policy act that influences an election is now impeachable, we won't have a POTUS hold office for a full term ever again.

[Catonahottinroof]

I think the majority of that is accurate. However, the right was humbled after Clinton’s impeachment. My hope is a similar outcome this time.

I'm sure you know this but even that won't change minds on either side. Dems believe he's guilty and nothing will change that. Reps believe he is innocent and nothing will change that. And everyone else isn't paying attention.

That's a broad paintbrush but mostly true.

[CitizenBBN]

I think the majority of that is accurate. However, the right was humbled after Clinton’s impeachment. My hope is a similar outcome this time.

It's certainly possible, and for the same reasons.

It's not something that polls capture well, b/c it's not a specific "I'm voting for A b/c of X" kind of thing. It's the broad perception that your current Representative is just part of the Beltway, not worrying about things that help their constituents. Doing that to impeach a guy you may have voted for on top of it is not a good recipe.

It also does the one thing Dems really don't want done in those districts: ties their local rep to the national party politics. The Democratic party at a national level has nothing in common with most of those swing district voter's beliefs. They win those seats by doing like they tried with Amy McGrath here in the Bluegrass.

They put her up b/c she's a veteran, and they portray her as being a passionate public servant, running b/c she heard the call, and they stay way away from the party platform other than broad talk about health care, the opiod crisis, etc.

They don't want her to be seen as "a vote for Pelosi" b/c Pelosi can't win dogcatcher in a red state. These kinds of things help tie those local reps to her and the national party, and that's not good for them.

Dems in pink districts and Repubs in baby blue districts both have to play hard on local politics and stay away from the national stuff.

This is how this hurts them. Not in obvious ways you get in poll questions but in broad feelings towards candidates IMO.

[Doc]

If "obstruction" is now simply not doing whatever Congress asks, and if any foreign policy act that influences an election is now impeachable, we won't have a POTUS hold office for a full term ever again.

My concern, and a nonpartisian one, is that the impeachment bar is now so low that impeachment will be the rule of the day, and meaningless. By the standards set by Schiff, Nadler, Schumer and Pelosi, Obama could have been impeached numerous times. Sicking the IRS on conservatives was clearly impeachable abuse of power. Obstruction of Congress on Fast and Furious also impeachable. FiSA abuse? Impeachable.. " I will have more flexibility after the election", also impeachable. Dems pulled this crap with federal judges, changing the requirement to a straight majority. How did that work for them? Gorsuch and Kavanaugh both appoved because of that rule change. GOOD JOB. Democrats don't learn that what is good for the goose is goood for the gander. Personally I hope the GOP does not play tit for tat and impeach the democrstic president, but I would not blame themif the did, and did it just out of spite

[CitizenBBN]

My hope, both as a conservative and American, is that this hammers the Dems in the House elections. If both the GOP and the Dems lost the House after pulling one of these partisan impeachments maybe future politicians would heed the message more.

If they do this and get away with it politically then we'll see even more of it, and it's insane. This isn't voting to condemn a President you dont' like, this is the most severe Constitutional step available for one branch to overrule the other. It was meant to be reserved only for cases of a President going utterly off the rails.

It's the "break glass in case of emergency" option, the one where you burn your own crops to stop the oncoming army. Nothing Trump has done, or nothing Obama did, etc. has risen to that level.

The POTUS claiming privilege and ignoring Congress happens all the time. It either gets settled politically in a negotiation, sometimes with the assistance of the judiciary, and otherwise is solved in the next election.

[CitizenBBN]

Random thoughts from the day:

1) Supposedly Trump damaged national security, despite the fact that even anti-Trump witnesses all had to concede that Trump has been more supportive of Ukraine than the previous administration. So he did more to thwart Russia, and somehow simultaneously endangered national security in a pro-Russian fashion. Brit Hume's insight on this was great.

2) Nadler terming another Representative's speech "Russian propaganda" proves the gloves are off and this country is heading towards something that makes mugging MAGA hat wearing people look like firm handshakes. I was stunned a Chairman would do that.

3) Tulsi Gabbard must have the most chaffed buttocks in America sitting on that fence so hard. What kind of gutless wonder are you to vote "present" on impeachment?

4) We've just impeached a President for temporarily withholding aid that was actually given and calling for an investigation that never happened. Shakespeare's "Much Ado About Nothing" has nothing on this one.

5) Pelosi, who has dressed in black and called on the Founders, God and the tooth fairy this week in her claims this isn't about politics and is a defense of the Constitution, has decided to not send the articles to the Senate until she can somehow insure a "fair trial" in the Senate. My copy of the document says the House impeaches but the Senate conducts the trial.

Nancy, the Senate stood by while you decided how you would conduct your part, including some seriously questionable procedural maneuvers. Now it's up to them to decide how to do theirs. What hubris, what hypocrisy to claim this isn't politics.

6) IMO the Dems even claiming this isn't politics is going to hurt them on its face. People aren't THAT stupid, everyone knows these things are ALL about politics, on both sides. To claim so vociferously and with such faux piety that they are somehow doing the work of the Lord, the Founders, and maybe Lincoln makes them look so completely phony, and I think that hurts them.

[Catonahottinroof]

People who don’t learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Many of the same democrats who sat in on the charging phase of Clinton in the 90s were front and center today....

Random thoughts from the day:

1) Supposedly Trump damaged national security, despite the fact that even anti-Trump witnesses all had to concede that Trump has been more supportive of Ukraine than the previous administration. So he did more to thwart Russia, and somehow simultaneously endangered national security in a pro-Russian fashion. Brit Hume's insight on this was great.

2) Nadler terming another Representative's speech "Russian propaganda" proves the gloves are off and this country is heading towards something that makes mugging MAGA hat wearing people look like firm handshakes. I was stunned a Chairman would do that.

3) Tulsi Gabbard must have the most chaffed buttocks in America sitting on that fence so hard. What kind of gutless wonder are you to vote "present" on impeachment?

4) We've just impeached a President for temporarily withholding aid that was actually given and calling for an investigation that never happened. Shakespeare's "Much Ado About Nothing" has nothing on this one.

5) Pelosi, who has dressed in black and called on the Founders, God and the tooth fairy this week in her claims this isn't about politics and is a defense of the Constitution, has decided to not send the articles to the Senate until she can somehow insure a "fair trial" in the Senate. My copy of the document says the House impeaches but the Senate conducts the trial.

Nancy, the Senate stood by while you decided how you would conduct your part, including some seriously questionable procedural maneuvers. Now it's up to them to decide how to do theirs. What hubris, what hypocrisy to claim this isn't politics.

6) IMO the Dems even claiming this isn't politics is going to hurt them on its face. People aren't THAT stupid, everyone knows these things are ALL about politics, on both sides. To claim so vociferously and with such faux piety that they are somehow doing the work of the Lord, the Founders, and maybe Lincoln makes them look so completely phony, and I think that hurts them.

[DanISSELisdaman]

My concern, and a nonpartisian one, is that the impeachment bar is now so low that impeachment will be the rule of the day, and meaningless. By the standards set by Schiff, Nadler, Schumer and Pelosi, Obama could have been impeached numerous times. Sicking the IRS on conservatives was clearly impeachable abuse of power. Obstruction of Congress on Fast and Furious also impeachable. FiSA abuse? Impeachable.. " I will have more flexibility after the election", also impeachable. Dems pulled this crap with federal judges, changing the requirement to a straight majority. How did that work for them? Gorsuch and Kavanaugh both appoved because of that rule change. GOOD JOB. Democrats don't learn that what is good for the goose is goood for the gander. Personally I hope the GOP does not play tit for tat and impeach the democrstic president, but I would not blame themif the did, and did it just out of spite

This is the true danger of all of it!

[CitizenBBN]

This needs to be Trump's campaign on this issue:

After the event concluded, the president tweeted a picture of himself with the words, "In reality, they're not after me. They're after you. I'm just in the way."

[dan_bgblue]

This needs to be Trump's campaign on this issue:

After the event concluded, the president tweeted a picture of himself with the words, "In reality, they're not after me. They're after you. I'm just in the way."

Outstanding, and the picture of him needs to show him in clothing that looks like he has been attacked by a rabid bear.

[CitizenBBN]

Outstanding, and the picture of him needs to show him in clothing that looks like he has been attacked by a rabid bear.

Seriously, it should be his slogan, or at least secondary to Keep America Great.

For the negative ads, the ones you run in black and white, that's the focus,

"They're not after me. They're after you. I'm just in the way". That's how you close those ads, then you go to a full color shot of Trump at a rally with "Keep America Great".

It's marketing gold. It ties in perfectly with the "Deplorables" comment and the obvious message from the coastal elites and their media that people in the flyover are stupid and wrong and just need to do as they're told. The condescension is palpable, people here know it, and this plays right to it.

[CitizenBBN]

Alan Dershowitz, Who I continue to point out is one of the great LIBERAL minds of our age, and lifelong Democrat, on this absolutely unfathomably unconstitutional move to withhold the articles of impeachment from the Senate:

"It is difficult to imagine anything more unconstitutional, more violative of the intention of the Framers, more of a denial of basic due process and civil liberties, more unfair to the president and more likely to increase the current divisiveness among the American people. Put bluntly, it is hard to imagine a worse idea put forward by good people," he added.

"Denying him and the American people that fundamental right might serve the temporary interests of the Democratic party, and academics who support it, but would do violence to the rule of Constitutional law that is supposed to serve all Americans, regardless of party or ideology."

But since this is Trump, he doesn't deserve rights.

As I've said, it's the reckless and emotion driven response to Trump that is the real danger to our nation. He's just a man, not a demon from Hell. Suspending all of the precedents, rules, procedures and laws of the land to simply "get him" is the real danger. People have become unhinged at a man based mostly on his personality and not his actual deeds, and they've lost sight of our principles in the name of those same principles.

[CitizenBBN]

Mitch only helping himself in Kentucky at this point, as he is very deft at these things.

"Some House Democrats imply they are withholding the [impeachment] articles for some kind of leverage," McConnell said. "I admit, I'm not sure what leverage there is in refraining from sending us something we do not want. Alas, if they can figure that out, they can explain."

Says it pretty plainly. There's no leverage here. If I'm Mitch I tell Pelosi to sit on the articles till next November for all he cares. Don't meet with her, don't have your staff chat, nada. The house has its role, the Senate has its role, and the Senate absolutely does not answer to the House in this situation.

Politically this is a GOP winner to sit and wait her out, b/c you can just keep moving forward and it does you no harm at all. Meanwhile the Dems look hypocritical and weak and it makes the whole thing look just as political as it is.

I must admit though, watching these machinations is interesting.

[dan_bgblue]

Trump also highlighted the quote that, for my money, is the matching bookend to Schumer’s “six ways from Sunday” prophecy. This one came from Rep. Al Green from Texas, who said last May he was “concerned if we don’t impeach this president, he will get reelected.”


Can’t have that. Whatever it takes, can’t have that.

[Catonahottinroof]

I think that is a good bit of the left’s hysteria with Trump. He’s beatable with a good candidate, not a bat$hit crazy candidate with loon ideas. Unfortunately, the Democrats don’t have a good candidate at the moment.....

Trump also highlighted the quote that, for my money, is the matching bookend to Schumer’s “six ways from Sunday” prophecy. This one came from Rep. Al Green from Texas, who said last May he was “concerned if we don’t impeach this president, he will get reelected.”


Can’t have that. Whatever it takes, can’t have that.

[Doc]

Mitch only helping himself in Kentucky at this point, as he is very deft at these things.

"Some House Democrats imply they are withholding the [impeachment] articles for some kind of leverage," McConnell said. "I admit, I'm not sure what leverage there is in refraining from sending us something we do not want. Alas, if they can figure that out, they can explain."

Says it pretty plainly. There's no leverage here. If I'm Mitch I tell Pelosi to sit on the articles till next November for all he cares. Don't meet with her, don't have your staff chat, nada. The house has its role, the Senate has its role, and the Senate absolutely does not answer to the House in this situation.

Politically this is a GOP winner to sit and wait her out, b/c you can just keep moving forward and it does you no harm at all. Meanwhile the Dems look hypocritical and weak and it makes the whole thing look just as political as it is.

I must admit though, watching these machinations is interesting.

I am no Micth fan but have to say he is playing it perfectly

[Catfan73]

I still think Mitch is playing it about as horribly as he possibly could.

On the bright side for the GOP, Biden probably just signed his letter of resignation saying he wouldn’t be opposed to a Republican Veep. It’s probably down to Sanders and Warren.

[CitizenBBN]

Nah, this is exactly what Mitch should do. Proud of him. Just ignore it and let it set there. Like he said, what leverage is there in refusing to send the Senate something they don't want in the first place?

Meanwhile he just keeps on pushing those judicial appointments through.

Anyone expecting Biden to not have a long series of bad statements and later "clarifications" hasn't watched his career very close. He's a walking machine of bad comments.

IMO his worst comment of the week was saying he'd ignore a Congressional subpoena to the impeachment trial. Isn't that exactly what Trump is being impeached for, obstruction of Congress? So with Biden we can save time and just impeach him BEFORE he's elected.

Of course what it shows is how silly the charge is to begin with, as every President has at times refused Congressional subpoenas, and they either go to court or negotiate a deal, but no POTUS has ever just saluted and done what he's told, and Biden's comment proves just how silly it is as a charge.

[CitizenBBN]

And Trump at least has a case re the subpoena. There is executive privilege, separation of powers, etc. Biden is just a normal citizen right now, and has no basis to refuse.

And if they do call witnesses, him and Hunter are relevant. The most underused argument against all this is pretty simple: Trump is the chief LEO of the land, and if there is probable cause for him to call for an investigation, then he's done absolutely nothing wrong. The fact that Biden may have been a political rival in some future date wouldn't provide any protection as that doesn't give you immunity.

If there's cause to call for their investigation, and it's pretty clear there's enough to at least call for an investigation, then Trump's actions, while benefiting him politically, are also justified.

If someone is sheriff and they think the other guy running for the office is running drugs, they can't investigate that even if they have some cause?

A VP's son, who is by all accounts not all that accomplished, suddenly gets a $500-$600K per year position on the board of directors of a company for which he has no knowledge whatsoever, and that company is closely tied to a foreign government that is under the direct policy control of that VP daddy. Come on guys, please. Can we at least all agree this was nothing but the buying of access? Now if Joe didn't do anything wrong then fine, but at a minimum it's clearly buying access. They put Hunter on there,and later a friend of the Bidens, to help gain access and curry favor with Biden.

It's how DC works, and it's pretty blatant. Add to that Biden's bragging of getting a Ukranian prosecutor fired and there's already probable cause to at least request an investigation, and if that's the case then Trump has done nothing wrong, even if it was of benefit to him as well.

[Catonahottinroof]

I do find it fascinating that the left would hang Trump if possible over pointing out Biden’s own “quid pro quo”.

[CitizenBBN]

Those on the other side see it as somehow changing the topic, but it is not.

If Trump had a legitimate reason to want to investigate Biden, then there can't be a high crime. The POTUS is absolutely within his power to investigate people or call on foreign powers to investigate people, even if that investigation does also benefit him politically.

Obviously no POTUS is screaming for investigations of political allies, donors, etc., but they aren't required to, nor does being a rival give anyone immunity.

The same is true of Congress. The party in power investigates the other party, not their own. there weren't going to be hard hitting hearings on Fast and Furious with Dems in charge, likewise they would never have investigated Iran Contra had it been Carter in office. Same for the GOP.

So sure politics is part of this, but Iran Contra was a legit investigation and not abuse of power even though it was clearly politically motivated.

But if the investigation itself has legitimate grounds, it's OK. Same BTW for Trump's thing and FISA, the question clearly being if it was legitimate and had some kind of evidence or cause..

Frankly, there's a lot more evidence to want the Bidens investigated over Ukraine than there is evidence to investigate Trump and Russian collusion. Large sums of money we KNOW changed hands with the Bidens, with Trump all they had was apparently some speculation over drinks in a bar.

I have no doubt Trump wanted Biden investigated to show the DNC and Dems are dirty with foreign money and influence, given for 3 years that's been the attack on him by those same people, but that's not a crime if it's also true.

[Catfan73]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/29/opini...der/index.html

Thought this was interesting. Although if Mitch is a Russian asset like WaPo says, it’ll never happen.

[CitizenBBN]

Everyone who disagrees with the Left and their media propagandists is a Russian asset. lol. Ironic given that they are closest to the Russian ideology than anyone.

Surprisingly you don't have to be a traitor or agent of a foreign power to have the gall to disagree with the Democratic party. Mitch is a Republican with a Republican President. So, and stay with me here, he's pretty dang likely to find ways to support the President.

Likewise the House is decidedly not Republican, and is thus likely to find ways to hurt the President if they can.

It used to just be called "politics". Now it's a Russian plot. Crafty those Ruskies. I think it all started when they got James Bond to drink Vodka martinis. The infiltration started there, and now we have this mess.

[CitizenBBN]

And no, there is no chance they use a secret ballot. First they have to get the articles, which is still iffy. Second Mitch will likely put a vote to dismiss before the Senate with no trial if he has the votes, and the whole thing blows away.

But if Trump insists on a trial, and he might, then I assure everyone it will be as pro-Trump as Mitch can make it and get away with it, just as the House process was as anti-Trump as they could be and get away with it.

It's politics, that's how the game is played.

[Catonahottinroof]

I have a feeling Trump will insist on a trial simply because of his penchant for getting back at those who ridicule and embarrass him. He will see that as his chance to do so.