Syria

[UKHistory]

With regards to the Kurds, the paid the price in blood.

[UKHistory]

I doubt he got played so much as he's hard headed and just doesn't listen to differing opinions. That's not good either, but I doubt Erdogan talked him into anything b/c he was rattling his economic saber right away.

Turkey wanted this when Mattis resigned. Trump gave the order and we didn’t even pack.

Just a horribly disgraceful move. Chamberlain did better.

[CitizenBBN]

Turkey wanted this when Mattis resigned. Trump gave the order and we didn’t even pack.

Just a horribly disgraceful move. Chamberlain did better.

Chamberlain did better? Really? A pile of sand with no oil doesn't really compare to handing over the Sudatenland to Hitler. I do agree it's not wise to encourage Erdogan, but our problems with him are far more difficult than the Kurdish problem. Namely that he's threatened to build his own nukes if we withdraw ours.

I agree it was the wrong decision, said so the second it was announced, but The truth is the actual outcome for the US is pretty insignificant whether we stayed or left. It's a region with almost no strategic value even in the Middle East.

I'm sure Trump saw it in simple terms. We don't want to be there, The Turks will come in and yes will stabilize the area, and we go home. I don't agree that's where the thinking should stop, but I wouldn't read more into it than that.

And in fact, we were in a stalemate where we keep troops there forever in order to keep this from happening, or until a viable Syrian government could form, which seems unlikely for years to come.

For me the relatively small troop commitment may be worth it, but Trump isn't wrong on the broader point: why are US lives being used in these ways all over the globe when other people can't solve their own problems?

Trump is basically an isolationist, and there's a case to be made. We inherited the job of the world's policeman from the Brits when they quit, but it's not clear the job is worth it. The pay is lousy (see his rants against NATO et al for not paying their own way), it costs American lives, and in many cases we don't get anything back for it.

If we're protecting ports that create trade then maybe there's a "worth it", but ever since the Gulf War we've been stuck in the Syria/Iraq region and gotten no farther with it than the day we got there.

Its a big break in thinking with traditional DC world, but Trump isn't wrong.

"Horribly discraceful" is IMO over the top, and comparing him being worse than Chamberlain is definitely hyperbole. I get your point, but this is the kind of over the top hang wringing that seems to come out with Trump and IMO isn't helpful for really analyzing what is going on, domestic or foreign.

I think it's a mistake, but not the biggest mistake I've seen prior administrations make in foreign diplomacy, If anything at least it saves American lives overall versus risking them, and that does count as a big plus for me personally.

[dan_bgblue]

CBBN I do not disagree with you very often and I may not be disagreeing here either, but I honestly think he made the right move to pull out. Lots of folks are bemoaning the plight of the Kurds and trying to paint the US in a bad light for leaving them to fight their own battle. History says that the Brits and French pulled out on them right after WW1 and the treaty of Severs did not even consider them important enough to carve out a piece of Syria and Turkey to build them a homeland. We do not want to see the side of the Kurds that make up the PPK and the terrorist activities they undertake in Turkey.

As I said in an earlier post in this thread. the middle east is a screwed up part of the world. Shia and Sunni hate each other which leads one country to hate another. Iranis hate Iraqis, who hates the Turks, who hates the Syrians, who hates the Jordanians, who hates the Israelis, who hates everyone else in the ME. And we have not even mentioned the Egyptians, Saudis, those in the Emerites, the Yemenis, Omanis, the Afghanis, the Pakis, or the Russians. All this hate takes place in an area about the size of 4 Alaskas. The hate has been going on for thousands of years with wars fought over land, over religions, and probably water, wealth, women, camels, and food. Now they all hate each other because that is what their ancestors have done for thousands of years.

I am sure it makes sense for Trump to fix this, right?

[CitizenBBN]

Dan, I can't argue with your position.

There's no solution short of propping up a Kurdish state and losing Turkey from NATO, etc. The French and English made the same calculation we did: the Kurds aren't a valuable enough ally to lose others that hate their guts.

And I'm for generally getting out of the region and all the other regions. So I can't really argue with you.

I'd have left the Kurdish troops in place simply b/c their numbers are low, but then again I don't know what's going on behind the scenes in Turkey, and given the politics we don't see I may have made the same choice as Trump.

We don't really know what the Turks laid on the table with us. They've been buying weapons from the Russians, clearly an overture they want something from us, and maybe this was it.

So maybe I make the same choice even politically.

I do think the timing is poor for Trump at home, but it's funny how when other politicians do what they think is right regardless of politics they are lauded, and Trump is condemned. Give Trump his due, he does what he thinks should be done, damned the torpedoes.

And that's a big key to his support. Any other president would at least be criticized b/c of policy, Trump is questioned as to his motives.

[CitizenBBN]

And if the agreement holds, and Turkey takes its chunk of land and the Kurds stay behind the line, honestly that's about the best solution we've had since Iraq collapsed.

If Trump can make this stick it's not a bad solution, and one that requires fewer American lives.

[dan_bgblue]

Mitch thinks Trump's actions in Syria are a grave mistake

I feel much better about my opinion now.

[CitizenBBN]

Lindsay Graham is easing up some on the issue. Seems to like the idea of a deal.

I get your position and Trump's. We're endlessly putting troops here and there to not so much solve problems as forestall solutions we don't like either politically or morally. It has gotten old after taking on that job in 1945.

[dan_bgblue]

I hope that when logical thinking people get over the media supported idea that the USA ran off and left a bunch of innocent kids in the wilderness surrounded by rabid wolves, we will come to a reasonable conclusion one way or the other.

[Doc]

I hope that when logical thinking people get over the media supported idea that the USA ran off and left a bunch of innocent kids in the wilderness surrounded by rabid wolves, we will come to a reasonable conclusion one way or the other.

Agree. The narrative that the Kurds came to the USA's aid is incorrect. More like the USA went there and it was mutually beneficial...but clearly more beneficial to the Kurds. ISIS and Turkey were both their enemies and content on destroying them. Disn't happen thanks to America.