Why is it OK to consider all Russians spies but if you consider any Arab a terrorist

[Doc]

you are a Islamaphobe?

Is there any evidence Natalia Veselnitskay is a Russian spy? Granted the e-mails look foolish, and to be honest a bit childish but then its a Trump so I'd expect that. And while we are at it does anybody else see the massive hypocrisy and humor in the criticism of Trump for nepotism in utilizing his son for advice considering he was running against Hilary CLINTON?

[CitizenBBN]

I'm trying to figure out why there's no issue with a DNC employee going to the Ukranian Embassy to get opposition research that led to information on Manafort, all established in the press prior to any of this current storm, but this is somehow treasonous.

Pick a position on this, just pick it consistently is all I ask. If Russia is such a threat that the Trump campaign having even contact with them at any point in any way is deadly serious, then lets haul Hillary and Bill into the FBI for him getting $1 million in payments at the same time his wife was signing off on their purchase of US uranium reserves.

If foreign meddling is that serious OK, let's crack down on it. Do you know how much foreign lobbying there is in Washington? This lady who met with Trump Jr. was here for at least a year prior working on lobbying, and Ukranian officials actively worked with the DNC to hurt Trump.

Let me repeat that. Per Politico (Not a right wing pub), the DNC approached the Ukranian officials and they actively worked with the DNC to a) provide intel used to hurt Trump, and b) made public statements to try to undermine Trump.

Let's also get into career bureaucrats subverting the laws to influence elections and political outcomes, like Comey more than once against BOTH sides.

Just be outraged at the whole machine, not just outraged at the opposition. You don't have to look very hard to see there is way way more dirt there than just this little slice with Trump.

I'm 100% fine with coming down on Trump Jr., as long as Hillary and her minions are in the adjoining sails for their even more obvious collusions with foreign powers.

[Doc]

Not only that but also look within. The USA mettle in the Isreali elections, actively working against Benjamin Netanyahu while Obama as in office. This is no secret that the USA did this to an ally in the last couple years. And you want to talk Russian collusion, lets talk the "hot mic" with Medvedev




Keep in mind, Trump Jr was a private citizen and not subject to any rules that pertain to government employees.

[CitizenBBN]

It's fascinating to me we are outraged over Russia being involved in our election in what they saw as their own best interests, yet the US has not only directly meddled in elections of stable democracies like Israel, but in fact it's an absurdly long list of things we've done.

Remember Obama trying to put his thumb on the Brexit voting with his "back of the line" threat? Farage was right, it only helped the Brexit cause, but that was Obama directly trying to influence a democratic election. OK it wasn't hacking, but it was obviously in his view in the best interests of the US (really of his globalist ruling class) to get a certain outcome, and he tried to help get it.

the Sec. of State's husband gets a MILLION DOLLARS from Putin backed entities in RUssia, they are tied to the Canadian billionaire who is tied to them, we have a documented 8 page memo stating explicitly that Clinton is tied to a lobbying firm that is selling that access to foreign agents for tens if not hundreds of millions of dollar, and yet none of that apparently is "collusion" with a foreign power.

Just stick to the same standard for both sides. Want to haul in Trump Jr, better get a whole prison for all the Clinton people who have far more strong evidence of collusion with foreign governments from their own documentation to massive financial paper trails.

And BTW, I'm ALL FOR doing that. Absolutely go after any collusion with Trump, but only if you're willing to bring down the Clinton machine and the DNC, for which we have real documented conflicts of interest and direct collusion with foreign governments.

[CitizenBBN]

And I'm not trying to change the subject. I'm just sick of the bias of the media only nailing those who they oppose politically and letting those they support walk for the same or worse legal and ethical transgressions.

If Hillary was the GOP candidate they'd have her ass in prison by now, they'd be utterly destroyed from the media pressure. The only reason she and half of her aides and the DOJ aren't under indictment is the media is just going to refuse to bring the case to the American people no matter what they do.

[UKHistory]

I just read a damning article on the uranium sale from ny times.

She was unfit and Obama allowing that was a dereliction of duty. Foreign policy wise, they suck. Reading that, it is clear few patriots remain in government or have a command of the issues.

[CitizenBBN]

here's a piece on her involvement opposing sanctions against Russia at a time when Bill was getting that big check.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...ow-speech.html

The highlight of the piece is that Bloomberg was going to do a story on it, and in one of the leaked emails it shows that the DNC reached out and got the story quashed.

And that's my problem with the media. They are all over Trump like white on rice, but it's obvious this corruption and influence peddling and foreign influence runs deep and wide, and the media is selectively picking their stories based on being an outreach of the DNC, not an objective "Fourth Estate" trying to keep the government as a whole honest.

the media screams that Trump's tweets about "fake news" are "bad for democracy." What is bad for democracy is when the media goes in the tank for one side or the other and becomes a willing accessory to covering up the misdeed of the government and government officials. It has allowed this corruption to flourish.

[suncat05]

And I keep telling you guys that there's a storm coming. And when it comes it's going to be a very bad storm. And unfortunately, I believe we're almost there.
Discount me if you like, but when it happens you will not get the truth from the MSM. Oh, you'll hear all kinds of things that won't be the truth, but it will be spoon-fed to the masses as if it's the Gospel from God Himself. And the masses will gobble it up and believe it as if it is the word of God. But it won't be. It'll just be more lies and made up stories to get the masses to get into the cattle trucks like all good cattle will do.

[suncat05]

And for all of what I just said above being said, we have to remember "who" is saying this stuff with regards to this terrorist stuff.
If you guys will indulge me here.......the jail for the county I work in is one of the several in south Florida that is used specifically for housing ICE detainees who are going through their USCIS adjudication process. In the course of working a lot of overtime since the beginning of the year after last year's general election, I can tell you all that most of these people are here illegally, and yes, that does make them criminals. But not everyone who comes here from places like Syria or the Sudan or Somalia or Iraq or Afghanistan are terrorists. Absolutely not. But they are here illegally, hence their detention.
Many others that are here from other places came in during the last eight years of the "open borders" policy from the last Administration. Again, they are criminals because they entered our country illegally. But very few are terrorists. How do I know this? I talk with them. Some I talk with a lot.
Most of these people just want a chance at a better life. That's all. And I have no heartburn with that. But they have to obey our laws and come here legally. It's that simple.
Now, in some of my conversations with these people, you find out things like who may be mentally ill. All you have to do is listen to them talk. The few terrorists that get through do the same thing. They will tell you who they are, where they're from, and why they're here. All you have to do is listen closely.
Most Arabs or any other people from the Middle East are not terrorists, but the terrorists are amongst them. THAT is why we have to be so vigilant in how we protect ourselves from them. Yes, they're here and they intend to do us harm. But we have to be watchful and careful so that we can catch them and put them where they belong so that we can't be harmed by them.
So, just like not all Russians are spies, not everyone that is Arab or from the Middle East is a terrorist.

[UKHistory]

Like I said Obama and Hillary and others seem very swayed by Russian money and the naive belief that the Cold War is over.

Forget Benghazi. That is nothing compared to the uranium deal. That is unconscionable.

Ukraine is an ally that has been invaded by Russia. Our enemy. Paint Hillary in a horrible opportunistic light as she deserves it. But multiple allies were informing the US of Russian efforts to imapct our election. The Ukraine sharing info on manafort is good for the nation.

Our nation has played around with other countries' elections covertly and overtly for along time. Long term it is not a good idea to manipulate another country.leveling the playing field again the Russian influence may be appropriate but it takes us down a dark road.

That said, regardless of how we mess we th other countries, I don't want our country to be messed with. In this regard I admit I am hypocritical. Drop a bomb on Hiroshima to save America. Horrible thing that probably was the right call.

The richest in this country have followed policies that have worked to erode the middle class. Neither party has truly worked to help all Americans. And the loss of our middle class is the end of our democracy. Serfdom would come back with no ability or a greatly reduced mobility for the rest of us to improve our quality of life

It is a testament to the frustration our citizens that we had such a choice between these two. Neither trump or Hillary are fit to lead. Trump is unfit and unqualified. At least with regards to Putin, Hillary did condemn the Ukraine ���� invasion.

Trump has criticized our allies and said not a bad word about mr KGB. I got a problem with that. Putin is the most formidable Russian leader since Stalin. He has run circles around every US president this century. And trump is financially indebted to this guy.

Are all Russians spies? No. Not all. But the richest businesses and many of the lawyers who do business in the west do so under the control of the Russian. Government. And one naturalized American had been an honest to goodness spy for Russia was at the meeting.

The president is in my view the kremlins candidate bought and paid for. Everyone close to this president ha slide about their connections to the Russians. This is scary to me.

Hillary and bill are corrupt. Yes. They were. They are. They will be. Right now they are not in position to harm the country. This blowhard is.

No every Russian is a spy. Not every Arab is a terrorist. But the richest Russians are connected to their government.

[CitizenBBN]

Ukraine is an ally that has been invaded by Russia. Our enemy. Paint Hillary in a horrible opportunistic light as she deserves it. But multiple allies were informing the US of Russian efforts to imapct our election. The Ukraine sharing info on manafort is good for the nation.

Lots of good stuff to discuss in your post History, which I'll try to get to, but I wanted to touch on this. Also I want to be clear how much I respect your views, so I don't want you to read my interest in discussing this with you as a negative in any way.

i find this view interesting, b/c you make the distinction that when the Ukranians get involved in our elections by sharing info they have on a candidate that you want to know about, that's OK.

IMO that's a very dangerous standard on several levels, including for your own position on Trump.

First and foremost, the Russians provided the US voters with information that LOTS of us wanted to have, which exposed the DNC as trying to rig their nomination process as well as levels of media collusion and manipulation.

IMO having Americans see our politicians for what they are, duplicitous power mongers, was good for the country. OK, they only picked one side, but so did the Ukranians. Did the Russians act in their own interests? Sure, but do you think the Ukranians were doing any different?

It's not OK when foreign meddling and influence and information manipulation is good for your political side and bad when it helps the opposition. I don't think you believe it is, but the point is that a lot of Americans were quite happy to have the corruption of the Clinton machine exposed even a little.

(Slight aside, we're still not really sure the DNC release was the Russians, but the point stands)

Now, if the Ukranians released that info to the Obama administration maybe you've got a distinction, but they didn't do that. They released it to a DNC operative and treated it as opposition research. They wanted to make sure it was public and didn't work through proper governmental channels. that's directly using their intelligence and agencies to influence the outcome of our election to what they perceived as their benefit.

So the DNC goes to a foreign government, meets in their embassy, and gets intel on the other candidate they can use against him. Maybe you think exposing that activity was good, but then you have to hold Trump Jr. harmless for his meeting b/c had there been any real real intel on Hillary that too could have been something Americans would like to know.

You're down a very dangerous road here, and honestly one that I see the Left accept with readiness: that the ends justify the means.

It's OK for government X and political party Y to get together b/c that exposed something you think needed to be exposed, but when government P and party Q get together and expose info you don't want released that's undermining democracy.

Either it's OK to get political intel from a foreign government and let the chips fall where they may politically, or its not. If it's OK when one side does it and we like the outcome but bad when the other guy does it and we don't, then you can kiss this system of democracy goodbye b/c now we no longer care about HOW we got what we want politically, just that we got it.

And that's the biggest failure in this Great Experiment. We've forgotten that it's the means that matter, not the ends.

[UKHistory]

Citizen,

You are my friend. I value and respect your opinion very much. Feel free to prove me wrong.

The Atlantic has a good article that on the Ukrainian issue. I am unsure if it is accurate in terms of what transpired totally.

Ukraine had been invaded by Russia. Ukraine is a recent ally I amtypin limited sentences on a iPad so I am not as detailed ask would prefer to be.

I liken this situation with the Ukraine to Czechoslovakia after Hitler's annexed the sudantland but before he took the whole country. If the Czechs knew a British politician was supportive of Germany, they might well have tried to raise the alarm.

Obama administration wAs impotent and inexperienced in terms of foreign policy. He was an appeaser in many respects. I am in the unenviable position of trying to defend a horrible woman. But the competition is a charlatan who spews hate and who most importantly is financially beholding to a foreign power. Hillary and bill have their hands out. The foundation clearly made her unfit. The emails too.

But trump in the disguise of America first is really making America alone. Trump appears far more comfortable with dictators than democratically elected leaders.

He also seems to fail to understand that while NATO should pay more, carrying the load allows us to have a greater voice at the table. NATO is vital. I am glad he decided that the most important alliance in world history is still relevant.

Trump's moves on foreign policy regarding Russia is scary. Uranium is bad-I was mourning our loss to whisky and dealing with family issues so I missed it.

The meetings, the back channels, and the financial investments the Russians made in trump business ventures makes the president beholden to not just a foreign power--a nation who is out for world domination.

Now let me say something that might sock some. Generally I think the president is full of bullying excrement and arrogance. In his mean comments there is a grain of truth.

America doesn't wear the white hat. We aren't the good guys. Our hat is closer to antique white or ghost gray. Russia's hat is coal black.

But trump's view that America and Russia are both killers is true. That said, our ideals are better. Our aspirations are better. With some financial limits on campaigns we can be closer to what we should be.

Trump doesn't appeal to our inner angels. He is a bully and standing with a bully is sure bet to fall with a bully. Putin is not so much a bully as he is a thug. Thugs back up their threats. Bullies just pick on the weak.

Last November was a time with Americans had no real good options. Not sure how this will play out but we need statesmen.

I know politicians seem pretty bad. But the only profession I know where people think Inexperience is a plus is in government. Can you imagine any other important job being given to someone with so little experience. I get the appeal of a outsider.

However think of someone who selects the shoe salesman who likes wearing a white coat and stethoscope to perform surgery on him over a snooty doctor with poor bed side manners.

The relationship trump has with the Russians and his poor relationship thus far with countries closer to us is dangerous.

[Diana Welch]

"Why is it OK to consider all Russians spies but if you consider any Arab a terrorist". Actually, this is a wrong perception. But we cannot stop people thinking that way, what we should do is not to complicate things anymore by not spreading this kind of humor.

[Doc]

There was no humor. To liberals, any contact with a Russian is collusion, unless that contact involves a democrat. The Clinton's Russian contacts are repeatedly justified even though she helped curtail sanctions that allowed Slick Willie to pocket a cool $500,000 in speaking fees...yet lil Donnie meets with a Russian lawyer and its collusion. Meanwhile any broad bushing of an Arab by those who want to protect the country are accused of profiling and being homophobes. Why no cries of Russophobia?

[Diana Welch]

Well, Clinton has a different way on how to negotiate or how to point out differences with other countries. As long as the it's different to her point of view, well you are a bad and meanie political leader. It is not about being a democrat or whatsoever, it is about on how you will deal with other leaders, their culture and their belief. Meet halfway for the greater interest not impose a sanction because you want to.