Potentially lots of illegal voters? You Betcha

[CitizenBBN]

Good article covering some procedural details in California, and how easy it is to have illegals voting.

The problem with California is there is no separate verification of citizenship on voter registration, said Charles Bell, Jr., a partner with California-based Bell, McAndrews & Hiltachk, LLP, a law firm that specializes in election law. Applicants can check a box affirming they are citizens, and this is not checked against any other government database such as federal immigration records.

...

“Throughout my 27-year career with [Immigration and Naturalization Service] and ICE, I arrested hundreds of illegal criminal aliens who had voter registration cards,” Arnold said. “They would often admit they voted, but they were rarely prosecuted for illegally voting.”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...-to-fraud.html

It covers some of the details, not all of them, but some at least in Cali, kinda interesting.


I have ZERO doubt illegal aliens are voting. Too many of these states have wAY too many holes in their system. The only question is how many illegals are voting. Is it 30K or 300K or 3 million?

FWIW my guess is out of 11 million illegals that a lot of them do. if 57% of eligible Americans vote and among illegals it's just half of the legal American voters who participate that's still 25-30% of 11 million or 3 or so million, right at Trump's number. It's honestly not insane. High maybe, but not insane.

[UKHistory]

Perhaps. But hard to imagine why individuals who are so uninterested in applying for citizenship would participate in national elections.

This is especially true when you look at overall percentage of the population that does not exercise its voting rights.

My concern is that this voting fraud issue raised by Trump is an extension of a multi-pronged approach to limit the voting rights of the American people.

From the voter ID issues, to limiting access to DMVs, same day voting registration, the voting rights act of 1965 and the gerrymandering of districts all appear to be efforts to deny the franchise to Americans.

Trump's issue is far more personal and far more dangerous. He takes a personal affront to the fact that a significant number of Americans didn't vote for him and fear his presidency like no other.

I also think that by starting this idea early, Trump is positiioning himself to not even have to run for re-election but rather determine that elections are fraudulent and that he has no choice but to remain in power.

[suncat05]

With Communist anarchists like Soros contributing money to the cause, I can see lots of illegals being induced to vote. And how it's done probably takes several different forms, whether it be cash or other indirect monetary methods, but there's no doubt in my mind that this subversion of American elections is happening.

[Doc]

Perhaps. But hard to imagine why individuals who are so uninterested in applying for citizenship would participate in national elections.

This is especially true when you look at overall percentage of the population that does not exercise its voting rights.

My concern is that this voting fraud issue raised by Trump is an extension of a multi-pronged approach to limit the voting rights of the American people.

From the voter ID issues, to limiting access to DMVs, same day voting registration, the voting rights act of 1965 and the gerrymandering of districts all appear to be efforts to deny the franchise to Americans.

Trump's issue is far more personal and far more dangerous. He takes a personal affront to the fact that a significant number of Americans didn't vote for him and fear his presidency like no other.

I also think that by starting this idea early, Trump is positiioning himself to not even have to run for re-election but rather determine that elections are fraudulent and that he has no choice but to remain in power.

I tend to agree with the bolded statement. However its a double edge sword. I never got how the requirement to show ID somehow discourages people from voting. To those who are so interested in voting, how difficult is it to get adequate ID? The argument against voter ID is that somehow people can't get an ID. Well if you're that committed to voting, then be a citizen, prove your a citizen and get an ID show that you are one. At face value, the objection to voter ID isn't the folks who are legally eligible to vote will be disenfranchised because obtaining an ID is as easy as voting. There are multiple ways to show proof of citizenship. I suggest the objection is that those who want to vote multiple times or more likely get people who likely would not vote or are not interested in voting hence are not willing to put in the effort to get an ID, won't be able to persuade them to vote for THEIR candidate.

[dan_bgblue]

My opinion on this subject is very simple, and maybe simple minded as well, To be able to cast a vote in any election for public governing officials in this country the voter must be a citizen of this country. No exceptions should be granted for anyone regardless of any circumstances. No city, county, or state law should be able to change that "law" for national elections. If a city wants to pass an ordinance that resident non citizens, tourists who happen to be passing thru on election day, or kangaroos can vote in city wide elections, that is fine with me as I can easily find a way to move away from that city or work to have the idiots that passed that ordinance voted out of office in the next election. I can not easily find a way to leave my country.

There is no requirement placed upon me as a citizen of this country to vote in any election, but if I want to vote I have to follow the procedures to do so. My wife and I moved 3 1/2 years ago, and to be able to vote in any coming election, we had to register at the new poling place. We did that because we wanted to be able to legally vote in future elections. I think that us having to do that is a small price to pay to ensure that votes are cast by citizens and not cast by persons paid to vote in a flawed system that makes me question the legitimacy of the outcome of the election.

[KeithKSR]

Kentucky has a voter ID law, Inhaven't seen any claims of disenfranchisement. You have to have an ID for just about everything, no reason any adult wouldn't have an ID.

California allows illegals to possess driver's licenses. They then use those licenses to obtain a voter registration.

Illegals are encouraged to vote by liberals, and they bus them to the polls to get them to vote.

[UKHistory]

What liberals are encouraging illegal aliens to vote?

Where is your proof that liberals are busing illegal aliens to the polls.

People use the word liberal like it is worse than pedophile

I'd rather be a liberal, and I ain't one, than a fascist who has no problem sexually assaulting women. I'd rather be a liberal than a demagogue who resembles Mussolini more than the weakest American president.

[CitizenBBN]

I'd rather be a liberal, and I ain't one, than a fascist who has no problem sexually assaulting women. I'd rather be a liberal than a demagogue who resembles Mussolini more than the weakest American president.

I just don't get how Trump is perceived as a fascist. Franky I wish we'd have a real fascist out there that was close enough to the US news stream that people could really see what one is like. Trump just nominated an anti-government guy for SCOTUS, limited regulations, etc. that's not a fascist.

The idea that he's ruling in some dominating manner is also just not true. Trump puts in a temporary moratorium on some immigration from 7 nations with ongoing massive terrorist issues, and he's a tyrant. Obama with the swipe of his pen and no approval reversed a 50 year policy of TAKING Cuban refugees and decided to deport them all and that's not even enough to get a raised eyebrow. Huh? Who is the tyrant again?

Trump is an egotistical, boorish, uncouth person, no doubt. But the image of him as a dictator is to me nearly comical after Obama's executive overreach, Bush II and the Patriot Act, etc. We've seen massive concentration of executive power for decades, which so far Trump hasn't in any way expanded and in some ways has reversed, and he's the dictator? No, he's just an unlikable guy, but he's no tyrant.

If you want to see fascism very much in the mold of the Brown Shirts of the Nazis, then watch the Leftist riots to intimidate and shut down opposition, like at Berkeley last night. that is EXACTLY what was going on with both the National Socialists and the Communists in Germany. that's fascism, using the threat of violence and intimidation to shut up anyone who opposes your views.

That is the definition of what is going on with the extreme Left these days. Notice I didn't say "liberal", to distinguish between traditional liberals and this new breed of extremists who are every bit as myopic, violent and willing to do anything as the extreme right leaning militia groups . There are just vastly more Leftists willing to go out and burn things and assault people than there are people on the right willing to grab their guns and go live in some camp in the hills.

Fascism is as fascism does. I see nothing in Trump or his supporters that says "fascism", from his desire to LIMIT government and diffuse power to the unwillingness of his supporters to resort to violence and intimidation, and I see almost nothing BUT that now among the leadership (appointed and self appointed) of the Democrats and the liberal community in general.

IMO good liberals need to reject this crap the same way good conservatives needed to reject Jerry Falwell back in the 1980s. People burning crap so they don't even have to hear the words of someone with a different perspective is NOT liberalism and is not liberty.

[CitizenBBN]

Perhaps. But hard to imagine why individuals who are so uninterested in applying for citizenship would participate in national elections.

This is especially true when you look at overall percentage of the population that does not exercise its voting rights.

That's a good point, and one with which I have generally agreed, but part of my point was to address that thought process as well.

In this last election nearly 60% of eligible voters did in fact vote. That's high, but say it's 40%-45% is more typical (actually it appears to hover around 45-50%). OK, let's assume that among illegals that it's much lower. If it's half of the non-participation rate of eligible voters that's still 20% or somewhere around 2 million illegal voters. That's a ton of people.

Why would they vote? Well, let's remember that a lot of that 11 million illegals aren't people who got here last week. Many have been here a while, they have been here long enough to have views and follow politics, and if they do then why wouldn't they form opinions about which political leaders would be best for them and their families?

After all they have quite a stake in politics, in some ways more than the rest of us, not less. IN this election in particular they had a LOT at stake. You may not vote for Trump or Hillary if you just dont' care, but what if you are illegal and you think you may get deported or your family or that you may not be able to get other family here? Wouldn't they have MORE incentive to have just voted illegally in this election?

Why wouldn't they vote, at least some of them? There's no big penalty to doing so in these states, and none in several. ON a lot of issues they would have even more interest than most, why wouldn't they form opinions on which candidate would most help their family? If they've lived here 5, 10, 20 years NONE of them have ever raised up their heads to have opinions on local or state or national issues?

IMO you only need look at things like the Milagro Bean Field Wars to see that there is clearly a vein of politics, a strong one, running through the immigrant community, both legal and illegal. In states like California there are often issues on the ballot or candidates on the ballot that DIRECTLY impact policies towards immigrants and illegal immigrants, why on Earth would they not try to have a voice in those decisions?

So while at first blush maybe we'd all say "why would they vote", IMO that's a naive view once we walk through their real world situation. Once we see them as regular folks with the same hopes and dreams and concerns for how government policy may impact their lives IMO it's impossible to think that the vast majority just go along working in the fields and kitchens of America and don't participate in elections or political thoughts.

Now in some states they likely do NOT vote b/c it would be hard to pull off, but if you live in a state where you can just show up on election day and cast a ballot with no proof of who you are, why would you not?

These are people just like us, and like us I see no reason to think that they all just turn down the chance to influence the direction of the nation at a local, state and federal level.

[CitizenBBN]

Also we can't just ignore the anecdotal example cited in the article that shows that an ICE guy has found HUNDREDS of illegals who had voter cards on them physically, can we?

If this guy is telling the truth, that just one guy over one career personally found hundreds of illegals with voting cards, then it's not hard at all to project hundreds of thousands to millions out there who are illegal but who vote at least sometimes.

There are reports as well from people who said they saw their friends who they knew were green card holders at the polling place voting. They aren't here illegally, but the election system in some states is so unsecure that they decided to go vote anyway. They are likely educated professionals, but they aren't citizens, and there they are voting.

In states where people can just wander up and vote without any real verification I can't imagine there isn't a lot of illegal voting, by aliens, by felons, by dead people (through the also very exposed absentee ballot system) and by people voting multiple times.

The only question IMO is if it's enough to sway elections, and I'm betting it is in at least some cases.

[DanISSELisdaman]

In a tight election, if it happens in only one state, it could sway the election. I'm sure it not only happens, but that it happens on a much bigger scale than most would imagine. I think that's the very reason that Hillary and democratic party was so dumbfounded when Trump won. The fix was in and it just wasn't supposed to happen. The problem was, rural Americans were fed up with the BS they have been force fed the 8 last years and turned out in bigger numbers than the DNC thought they would.

[jazyd]

Anyone here can ask Mick about voting illegally and it isn't just those that aren't citizens.

Its those who want more freebies from the government.

Its those that are driven to voting booths for a pack of cigerettes which happened under Clinton.

Its black churches busing their members from voting place to voting place, it happened in Ark for sure.

We have black democrats in jail in Miss for intimidating voters and commiting voter fraud.

in Philly when Obama ran the first time, the New Black Panthers were shown threatening white citizens who wanted to vote

Democrats have no problem busing illegals to vote or promisng very little to get them to vote.

In our school superintendents race last time a democrat lady won, she bought off the black pastors in our county and many of us knew it.

Why is making someone have an ID such a bad thing, they aren't going to write a check in my store w/o an ID, and all my credit cards say PHOTO ID necessary before that care is used.

Facism, try California like Citizen said, the real trouble makers there were paid by Soros, that was easy to see what was happening but the students went right along with it and the police did nothing as school property was destroyed.

Another conservative speaker was attacked today by protestors.

Free speech, not with democrats and liberals. Agree with them or else.

How in the world did Franken get elected? Some of his questions are assinine. When he asks if the nominee enjoyed meeting him, he should be lucky it wasn't me. I would have told him hell no but I was forced to.

About Trump so called assault on women and admitting it. I am waiting to hear him admit he assaulted any women. I did hear him say he grabbed women by the ..... because they..the women..ALLOWED it because he was an celebratiy. They invited it.
And those women who accused him that came out of the woodwork suddenly..anyone think they got paid...well what happened to all ltheir bravery when Trump said he was going to sue them all after the election. They were not heard from again. Just another dirty trick by democrats. And what he said on that tape, I have heard worse than that from women I worked with and yes one did grab me by the crotch. I cut her hours the next week.

Its easy to figure out why illegals vote. ONe, as citizen said they have been here a long time and state have told them they can vote so they do. Second, it can earn them freebies..a friend of mine has a SIL that is making a fortune off of doing dental work for medicaid and illegal children. Third, they get paid for doing it.

Trump is correct, there is a lot of illegal voting going on and nothing is being done on a national scale. Democrats laugh behind out backs because they are so par tof it, and repubilians are too stupid to acknowledge it.

The Kennedy election over Nixon was about illegal votes. There is no doubt in my mind there was illegal voting going on in Ohio in Obamas last election. A so called tea party republican tried to steal the election from Cochran 4 years ago here in Miss.