Horrible - 50+ dead in Orlando nightclub shooting spree

[kingcat]

Money is becoming the god of this nation? Money has been the god of this country since people paid for kidnapped workers turned into slaves. Money has been the god of this country since coal miners were paid in script and the 8 hour work day was called a communist plot by the New York Times.

Money has been god for a long time.

A point well taken.

But the advent of cable news, and other political programing has interfered with the American way of life. We are blatantly manipulated via the media by corporate power and serve their agenda as a nation.
And that agenda is to divide people and provide programming which appeals to each segment, and dilute the strength of our nation..the will of the people.

Republican versus democrat, liberal versus conservative, and now even race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.. are fair game. And things that once were not worthy o,f or expedient for public discussion are used to divide us even further.

What the end game is I don't know, yet corporate power is to be feared in any modern society. But when our thoughts and emotions are manipulated daily, there is no way back from it that I see. Opinions don't matter, only the desired discussion.

Terror is an adjective. There can never be a successful war waged against it and there is no rational way to discuss doing so. The media, using our willingness to argue over it has empowered it, and imho intentionally so.

[Krank]

http://www.newswest9.com/story/32213...gbtq-community

[CitizenBBN]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...lame-game.html

Krank there's no doubt this guy has more messed up layers than an onion, but a big part of WHY he was so messed up was directly tied to the message of radical Islamists.

Heck, his own father released a video condemning gays. we KNOW he's followed the preaching of imams calling for the "merciful killing" of homosexuals.

Was he possibly gay and just couldn't square that with hismelf, his father, his faith or whatever? Yeah, sure that's possible, but it's not exactly a surprise or insight that the instruments of terrorism are often mentally deranged and confused and driven by personal situations.

Recruiting into the Nazis or a group like ISIS preys very specifically on those situations, finding young men who feel lost, disconnected, hopeless, persecuted and giving them purpose and power.

But that doesn't mean this isn't an act of terrorism or isn't tied to ISIS.

Look at this contradiction: You posted an article saying even those who only tolerate homosexuality are in part responsible for a culture that encourages these horrors. OK, then what does that say about Imams and radical religious leaders and ISIS about their role in it? Surely it's VASTLY greater when they go around preaching that gays should be murdered in the name of God.

yet we're supposed to ignore that and say this wasn't driven in large part by those groups? If they weren't then those of us who are just tolerant are surely off the hook, and if they are responsible then that's for sure an act of terrorism.

That's the beauty of terrorism, esp. in the modern era. It doesn't require ISIS to make subversive contact with people, have operatives and handlers, funnel money and weapons to moles behind enemy lines and then instruct and activate them.

Oh no. Now all they have to do to be effective is get their message out to those disenfranchised, hopeless, confused, imbalanced lost souls through social media and videos and let them handle the rest.

An act committed at their behest and encouragement is still an act of terrorism, not a hate crime. If he called 911 to say he just hated gays then OK, but he called 911 to pledge himself to ISIS. Sure he hated gays, and maybe in part b/c of his own issues with his sexuality, but it was his hooking up with radical Islam as his way of dealing with that which moved him from misguided self hatred to full blown terrorist.

that's how modern terrorism will work, but in truth I guarantee if you go back and research the rise of the Nazis you'll see the same exact pattern, disaffected youth who already have a lot of self identity issues being recruited by a powerful message of purpose and hate.

[CitizenBBN]

http://www.newswest9.com/story/32213...gbtq-community

I have more than a few issues with the stance of many organized religions on the issue of homosexuality, but in this case that hasn't been the source of politics and division.

IMO the united way to view this is to see it as an act of terror against America, the divided way is to start claiming that "tolerance isn't enough" of an embrace of a given lifestyle.

I think this one person picked a gay target b/c of his personal issues on the subject but also b/c of the message of pure hate spewed by radical Islam on the subject, but the last one picked his co-workers in San Bernadino, the one before that picked a marathon in Boston, and the next one may pick something else. But all were influenced heavily by the far reaching media message of radical Islam, which is exactly their plan.

If the Southern Baptists starting preaching to go murder gays, and then someone who went to one of those churches who may have struggled with his sexuality went and did it, no one would say this was just a one off hate crime of a confused man. They'd be calling for any and all actions needed to silence that kind of preaching.

well why aren't we calling for any and all actions to stop that message when it comes largely from foreigners who are also calling on everyone to kill Americans in general?

If this were Christians inspiring this sort of action the LGBT community would be out of their minds, ready to rewrite the Constitution to stop the message, but when it comes from a radical Islamist movement it somehow isn't the primary thing we should focus on?

[CitizenBBN]

Not a big follower, but Dr. Ablow makes the point rather well IMO, esp. drawing on the Nazi analogy.

The fact that he may have deep seeded psychological reasons for WHY he embraced this ideology does nothing to change the fact that the ideology is in fact a danger to our nation and our people as proven by the results of his actions.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...l?intcmp=hpbt3

[badrose]

A point well taken.

But the advent of cable news, and other political programing has interfered with the American way of life. We are blatantly manipulated via the media by corporate power and serve their agenda as a nation.
And that agenda is to divide people and provide programming which appeals to each segment, and dilute the strength of our nation..the will of the people.

Republican versus democrat, liberal versus conservative, and now even race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.. are fair game. And things that once were not worthy o,f or expedient for public discussion are used to divide us even further.

What the end game is I don't know, yet corporate power is to be feared in any modern society. But when our thoughts and emotions are manipulated daily, there is no way back from it that I see. Opinions don't matter, only the desired discussion.

Terror is an adjective. There can never be a successful war waged against it and there is no rational way to discuss doing so. The media, using our willingness to argue over it has empowered it, and imho intentionally so.

Cable news would not have been necessary had the networks not become in lock-step in line with the liberal agenda after 2 terms of Reagan and 4 years of Bush I. The gloves came off and CNN joined in.

No term limits combined with corporate dollars corrupted politics beyond recognition on both sides. Nearly impossible to get back what was once a viable system that actually had American citizens' best interests at heart, even if there were different ideas on how to do it.

[kingcat]

Cable news would not have been necessary had the networks not become in lock-step in line with the liberal agenda after 2 terms of Reagan and 4 years of Bush I. The gloves came off and CNN joined in.

No term limits combined with corporate dollars corrupted politics beyond recognition on both sides. Nearly impossible to get back what was once a viable system that actually had American citizens' best interests at heart, even if there were different ideas on how to do it.

That's one viewpoint. And no one can argue that either side is beneath the other at their worst.

yet another is that the gloves came off with Rush and Republican party in damage control mode when Bill Clinton promised to do the impossible and balance the budget in his first term.
And before we give credit where it isn't due, the existing republican plan was a ten or twelve year plan.
Damage control also to expose the accusations that the democratic president would seek to remove ALL guns from the American people as right wing propaganda which proved untrue.

His success and subsequent record setting popularity sent his opposition into a frenzy, launching the most expensive investigation in history into every facet of his public and private life only to find a sad sexual encounter in the White House.
And from Senator Kerry labeled as a traitor, Obama a foreigner, etc, etc.. that type of politics has continued with the heartfelt support of most of the grand ole party.

It just depends on who one asks. But regardless which side one is on, the current political hate is definitely blinding, dangerous, and Un-American.

[PedroDaGr8]

Speaking of polarization of congress. A data science student at Harvard has created this visualization showing how congress has become more polar over time. It visualizes the voting patterns of congressional members. It shows how in the 80s, the two parties were relatively close together. With many members crossing party lines. As time goes on, you get a more bimodal distribution with only a few crossing the boundaries. Basically, it goes from a government of compromise to a government of which party has the most votes. You can debate the cause but honestly, the results are clear.
http://imgur.com/a/Wmoex#0

[CitizenBBN]

No President in our lifetime has ever balanced the budget. Not one, not one year.

They claim a "balanced budget" thanks to tricky wording and accounting tricks. Not counting transportation funding b/c it's an "investment", calling something that reduces EXPECTED future debt a "cutting of the debt", not paying up Social Security and pension funds, those kinds of sneaky things. Any private company claiming a balanced budget using their tricks would be arrested for fraud.

That's coming from someone who thinks Clinton was one of the better Presidents of the era. He was, but he didn't balance the budget, and neither did anyone else.

Debt wise, we're plummeting towards the sun, the fact that some Presidents slowed the rate of plummet doesn't mean much in the end. Until we actually stop and turn around it doesn't do us any long term good.

[CitizenBBN]

As for the rancor, the reason for it is simple: the two main ideologies in the country are at a time when they are very far apart in their beliefs.

No conspiracies, no blame, it's just simple fact that at different points in US history the two main groups have been closer together and farther apart on the direction the country should take. The farthest apart point led to a Civil War. Another big gap was during the New Deal, another in the 60s, but we're in a very deep one right now.

Interestingly the period this is probably most like is the turn of the last century, when we saw a lot of blowback and the rise of the first major Populist movement, the Bull Moose party, etc. What it reflects is that the two main blocks, a Left that is basically Democratic Socialist in the European tradition, and on the right a socially more fundamentalist block that is also for limited government, has a third block that is basically Libertarian that is split between them due to several factors.

So it's a time of great turmoil. The parties are due for a shift on their axis, and when that happens the time before it has a lot of this sort of conflict.

[kingcat]

The division is a made for TV sporting event and we as a people are being manipulated. But the war being waged is a propaganda war, and in our own country, yet the true goal (imho) is exercising and perfecting control over the minds of our citizens. Ideologies are presented in ways that divide us farther.

Some conspiracies prove true, and I think this one will also..

Was John Kerry a traitor, despite the claims of those who served under him to the contrary? Was Obama a US citizen despite claims he was not, and the guarantee of upcoming proof by Donald Trump?
And, in fairness, there are equal points to be made for the other side. But those have been made thousands of times in this forum.

The point is, it doesn't matter what is true to the American public if it suits our own acquired agenda (generally speaking). We love our FOX news, it's the only true news and we love our MSNBC, it tells it like it is. These are some actual statements I hear quite often and have read here in the past.
Even hardcore political blogs are now considered news outlets. Because we, again generally speaking, want so bad to believe them.

That is the sad state of things and the most present danger we face as a nation.

[badrose]

FWIW I don't watch the news. I read it on Drudge.

[badrose]

Two years into the Clinton administration the Republicans took control of House and Senate. From that point on Clinton was wise enough to go along with most of what reached his desk. Thank you, Newt, for making Clinton look good.

Now we have a flooding of illegal aliens and the Dems can't wait to get them eligible to vote. They've already taken money budgeted for helping our veterans in order to take care of them. If this happens, we can kiss everything that we once loved about our country goodbye. Hello, Police State.

[badrose]

Well, duh.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/poli...e84049057.html

[UKHistory]

Speaking of polarization of congress. A data science student at Harvard has created this visualization showing how congress has become more polar over time. It visualizes the voting patterns of congressional members. It shows how in the 80s, the two parties were relatively close together. With many members crossing party lines. As time goes on, you get a more bimodal distribution with only a few crossing the boundaries. Basically, it goes from a government of compromise to a government of which party has the most votes. You can debate the cause but honestly, the results are clear.
http://imgur.com/a/Wmoex#0

Pork barrel legislation really allowed folks to work together and support one another's local interests.

Another thing that can not be denied is that the Senate and the Congress were composed of the same kind of people Most were white men. I am not saying that was great or right. But I do think a common shared background allowed for easier communication for them than today.

There are many problems with most folks being the same but effective communication was not one of them.

There have been real periods of bitterness in Congress. The WWII and post war fraternity is long since gone.

Media spin on both sides painting members of each party as traitors is poor form.

But the biggest problem might have been the redistricting that has gone on. Some parts of the country will be more conservative than others but I do think Congressional districts get redrawn to the point that a Congressional rep may have a very one sided view throughout their community.

We need everyone's ideas and being open to different points of views. This allows for a middle of the road approach that promotes a more tolerant view of others.
LBJ and the war quickly followed on the heels by Nixon and Watergate began to poison the waters.

[KeithKSR]

Pork barrel legislation really allowed folks to work together and support one another's local interests.

Another thing that can not be denied is that the Senate and the Congress were composed of the same kind of people Most were white men. I am not saying that was great or right. But I do think a common shared background allowed for easier communication for them than today.

There are many problems with most folks being the same but effective communication was not one of them.

There have been real periods of bitterness in Congress. The WWII and post war fraternity is long since gone.

Media spin on both sides painting members of each party as traitors is poor form.

But the biggest problem might have been the redistricting that has gone on. Some parts of the country will be more conservative than others but I do think Congressional districts get redrawn to the point that a Congressional rep may have a very one sided view throughout their community.

We need everyone's ideas and being open to different points of views. This allows for a middle of the road approach that promotes a more tolerant view of others.
LBJ and the war quickly followed on the heels by Nixon and Watergate began to poison the waters.

Single party rule in many urban areas has driven the parties farther apart. Both parties have moved left, the DNC has moved much farther left at a greater rate than has the GOP.

[Krank]

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics...ulse-massacre/

"For the past few days, Manes has played the role of editor, community point person, and spokesman. After he got his staff working on a brand-new 72-page June 16 issue, he went on NBC to talk about how his community was mourning. Visibly shaken, he told host Tamron Hall, "It's been a very difficult time for those of us in Orlando's LGBT community. I don't even know if my friends are alive or dead. My parents called me this morning to see if I was alive. And then I was at the press conference this morning and someone asked me if her brother was alive. It's very personal."

Manes says this week's shooting is just one example that shows why dedicated resources are important for the LGBT community.

"There have been a lot of conversations over the past year as to whether there's relevance to any of this any more—even gay bars, because of the internet and the phone [dating] apps. But this is the backlash that we were all afraid of and this is the backlash that we're going to have to fight," he says.

"It's absolutely important that we have singularly gay voices talking to gay people who trust them. It's important today more than ever."

[Krank]

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society...BT-people-rise

"It is not unusual for gun sales to spike after a mass shooting, but in the wake of the Orlando, Fla., attacks, gun shops have begun to see a new demographic of customer: LGBT people...

..."It's sad that we must consider such things," wrote Gwendolyn Patton of the Pink Pistols, a LGBT self-defense organization, on her website following the attacks, "but when there are persons out there who mean us harm, we must find ways to protect ourselves within the law."

Founded in 2000, the Pink Pistols have a diverse membership, with 40 chapters around the country. Ms. Patton told Politico that its members spanned the spectrum of political ideology, from those who fervently dislike the National Rifle Association for past remarks it made about the gay community, to those who side with the NRA."

[Krank]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b057ac661b988a

[Krank]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-of-peace.html

[CitizenBBN]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-of-peace.html

that's a good read.

[KSRBEvans]

How divided are we as a country?

79% of Republicans see the Orlando shootings as an act of Islamic terrorism; 16% see it as an act of domestic gun violence.

60% of Democrats see the Orlando shootings as an act of domestic gun violence; 29% see it as an act of Islamic terrorism.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/192842/re...fferently.aspx

[Krank]

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...gay-bar-threat

"Two active-duty Marines are under investigation after a Facebook post threatening violence against gay bars, according to Friday reports.

The photo that led to the probe shows a uniformed corporal aiming a rifle with his finger near the weapon’s trigger.

“Coming to a gay bar near you!” the image’s caption reads...

...The person who allegedly posted the photo, the newspaper added, also wrote “too soon?” after the image’s publishing.

The incident follows last Sunday’s mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando that killed 49 people and wounded 53 others...

...“The Marine Corps does not tolerate discrimination based on sexual orientation, race, gender or religion,” I MEF said in a statement, adding officials will take “appropriate action” over the incident.

“This type of behavior and mindset will not be allowed, and it is not consistent with the core values of honor, courage and commitment that are demonstrated by the vast majority of Marines on a daily basis.”

[Krank]

http://www.businessinsider.com/lgbt-...16-6?r=UK&IR=T

"While the Otherside Lounge bombing occurred nearly 20 years ago, the incident has personally and professionally affected me both as a lesbian and in my role during my tenure with the Atlanta Police Department. I recall seeing the footage of the incident unfold in several news outlets, and watching in disbelief when a city official "outed" a victim, who subsequently lost her job as a result...

...I still recall the fear of going to my first gay club in Atlanta - was someone going to kill me? Would there be another bomb? You see, you're never really safe being LGBT+ in the South. You can be fired, you can be raped, you can be attacked, and you can be killed for being defiant enough to just exist...

...According to FBI crime statistics, LGBT+ people are still more likely to be the victim of a violent hate crime than other minority communities - and many such crimes simply aren't reported to the police, or aren't classified as hate crimes if they are. Disappointingly, it appears that the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009 has done very little to bring these figures down.

While the act shed light onto LGBT+ hate, it did very little to change public attitudes in the South. Police agencies included more diversity training, recruited more LGBT+ applicants, and introduced LGBT+ clauses in their standard operating procedures. And yet police still selectively targeted the LGBT+ community: recall the brutal 2009 raids on the Forth Worth Rainbow Lounge and the Atlanta Eagle Bar. This selective targeting of LGBT+ "safe places" has further heightened the divide between LGBT+ Southerners and the police."

[Krank]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/g...afety-39958235

Gay Leaders Turn to Old Nemesis, the Police, for Safety

[Krank]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...f93_story.html


A year after marriage ruling, LGBT rights struggles continue

[Krank]

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/week-god-61816

"[Tuesday] on “The 700 Club,” televangelist Pat Robertson reacted to the massacre at an Orlando gay club by making the absurd claim that liberal LGBT rights advocates have aligned themselves with radical Islamists and are now reaping what they have sowed.

Robertson said that liberals are facing a “dilemma” because they love both LGBT equality and Islamic extremism, and that it is better for conservatives like himself not to get involved but to instead just watch the two groups kill each other.
“The left is having a dilemma of major proportions and I think for those of us who disagree with some of their policies, the best thing to do is to sit on the sidelines and let them kill themselves,” he told his audience."

[kingcat]

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/week-god-61816

"[Tuesday] on “The 700 Club,” televangelist Pat Robertson reacted to the massacre at an Orlando gay club by making the absurd claim that liberal LGBT rights advocates have aligned themselves with radical Islamists and are now reaping what they have sowed.

Robertson said that liberals are facing a “dilemma” because they love both LGBT equality and Islamic extremism, and that it is better for conservatives like himself not to get involved but to instead just watch the two groups kill each other.
“The left is having a dilemma of major proportions and I think for those of us who disagree with some of their policies, the best thing to do is to sit on the sidelines and let them kill themselves,” he told his audience."

..and I don't believe that is far to the right thinking. I am a moderate Democrat with no influence politically...and yet I am becoming physically afraid to speak my mind.
The propaganda machine is out of control and people are willingly blind to it. And the anger has already boiled over to a point that endangers our way of life.
A large segment of our country is ready to sacrifice liberty and freedom, for peace and security, and the American spirit of diversity and inclusiveness for absolutism.

As for Mr. Robertson, many times I thought Pat was having a word of knowledge on my dying Son's healing, only to finally hear that it was for someone else with a sever allergy or the like that God was healing on national TV. Yep i admit it, I believed many liars and false prophets back then.

That man will have to answer to many in God's kingdom, if he makes it. He has no moral platform to speak from however. A deceiver of many.

[Krank]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0ed0729a1a4c5

"I’m a Los Angeles-based medical doctor who, for the past 25 years, has specialized in treating the LGBT community. I’ve witnessed the ravages of AIDS, the physical and psychological trauma of violent hate crimes, and depression and suicide in a community specifically targeted for discrimination because of who we love...

...Now Orlando feels like a new “9/11 moment” for the LGBT community. While senseless mass killings have happened countless times before, this time the victims of the mass shooting, which was BOTH a hate crime and a terrorist attack, were gay people in what should have been a safe haven – a gay nightclub...

...PTSD is a condition that’s triggered by a terrifying event, either by experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include recurrent, unwanted distressing memories of the traumatic event(s), feeling emotionally numb, hopelessness about the future, always being on guard for danger, insomnia, irritability and difficulty concentrating...

...I’ve been literally overwhelmed by (heretofore emotionally stable) LGBT patients calling in with PTSD-like symptoms that I’m experiencing myself — despair, sleepless nights, hopelessness and fear.

Freshly re-traumatized, we in the LGBT community are now faced with a choice — cower in the shadows overcome with despair or become soldiers with a unifying cause. If we rise up as we did with AIDS and our fight for equality, I believe we will witness those feelings of despair dissipate. Better to fight – and maybe die — for a worthy cause than to be shot in a dark nightclub...

...A Facebook blogger rightly and defiantly declared, “You can wound us, kill us, attack us, propose bills to take away our rights. You can judge us, bully us, project your fears on to us, you can censor us, ignore us, but you will never stop us. We are a community of survivors. We have battled persecution from our families, our schools and our governments. We lived through the holocaust, and then a plague. We have always dared to let our dreams reach beyond us. Every time we got knocked down, we got right back up. That is just what we do.”

[bigsky]

It does seem like a 9/11 moment: just as Falwell/Robertson tried to blame Americans first with their "aclu and abortionists are to blame" so Barack Obama and the democrats have tried to blame america first with their "NRA and GOP" blaming. Instead of blaming a violent religion that espouses beheadings and death for homosexuals and apostates, and seeks political and religious tyranny over a wide geography and will engage in any atrocity to get it. I saw that Kareem Abdul Jabbar tried to equate the Westboro Baptist Church with the violence and geopolitical terror of radical islam. I have yet to see Westboro behead, take over any countries, drive planes into buildings, shoot fifty homosexuals, burn people alive, and a very long list of violent military and terrorist activities from the 8th century .