No, there's no deep state

[CitizenBBN]

“[Trump’s] not ever going to become president, right? Right?!” Page texted Strzok.
“No. No he won’t. We’ll stop it,” Strzok responded.

Reminder, Strzok was in charge of the Hillary email investigation and was one of the first people put on the Mueller team, and was only removed after all of this became public.

IMO even more damning, the first text was released by DOJ/FBI to Congress, but the SECOND text, the reply, was NOT released to Congressional oversight and was redacted by the DOJ/FBI.

So not only did he say the FBI would stop a Trump Presidency, the CURRENT DOJ/FBI authorities decided to not disclose that to the lawful elected oversight to which they are supposed to answer.

But this isn't political. Oh no. It's all OK, now eat your Solient Green and shut up.

[KeithKSR]

Timing is key here too. Those texts came about the same time the FBI was placing a spy to try to entrap low level Trump campaign workers.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm honestly more concerned this wasn't disclosed to Congress. It was all requested, and we know they redacted information as mundane as the price of a conference table, so we know DOJ and FBI aren't answering to Congress honestly. We know they dont' think they answer to the PResident (any President since Nixon) either, so just who the hell do they answer to that was actually elected by The People?

Apparently no one. Rosenstein and the others clearly think they are appointed and that's that, they are the determiners of right and wrong and are above answering to the political "whim" of the actual citizens of this nation.

We have people with unlimited budgets, vast police powers, who answer to no one. I'm pretty sure we should all be worried, whether we think they have good intentions or not. The very structure is anti-American and unconstitutional and will only lead to the kind of corruption we see with at least these specific people, but also to the hubris of Comey taking matters into his own hands, etc.

[suncat05]

We are never going to get the entire truth, good or bad.
This report should have been presented as written in the final draft, WITHOUT all of the players and their damn lawyers being involved.
I am very dismayed by all of this. This report, as presented, just makes all of this even worse, and from what I've seen, it's nowhere close to being the entire truth.
I was afraid that this report was going to be "whitewashed" and "sanitized" , and my fears have been realized.

[CitizenBBN]

suncat, it is important to note the FBI had strong influence on reviewing this, and these are the same people who redacted information about a $70,000 conference table on the grounds it was a national security issue. Clearly the FBI thinks anything that embarrasses them is a matter of national security, and honestly that's probably not far from the truth. They think their image is so very important to the nation it must be protected.

I don't know if you can get much more crafted than this:

The report stated that investigators "did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that improper considerations, including political bias, directly affected [the Clinton email investigation]," but added that “we were concerned about text messages exchanged by FBI Deputy Assistant Director Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, Special Counsel to the Deputy Director, that potentially indicated or created the appearance that investigative decisions were impacted by bias or improper considerations.”

So there's no "evidence" political bias affected the investigation, but then there's this evidence that "potentially indicated" they were affected by political bias. WHAT????Essentially the report says both, that there was no "evidence" of political bias, other than this evidence in these texts of such potential bias. Very well crafted to get some of that evidence out there but without actually admitting there is evidence of political bias. Tough to do both at the same time, but that's what this does.

[CitizenBBN]

IMO what that really says, and I'm sure the FBI and DOJ had a lot of influence in this part, is that the OIG coulnd't find "documentary evidence" or "testimonial evidence" of bias.

That is to say, they didn't find an email or get a statement that said "hey, we need to make sure and go easy on this interview" or "we need to give Abedin immunity" to "protect Hillary and make sure she can win this election." Well duh! No, I would hope they weren't dumb enough to put actual admissions of their bias into department recorded emails.

These texts between page and Strzok were uncovered, but how many more conversations happened with nothing on the record, or on encrypted non FBI devices? OIG has no power to subpoena FBI agent's personal phones or records, so we don't know.

So it says the obvious in the end: there was no smoking gun email laying around or some drawn up formal written down plan to execute, but the Strozk emails show there was at least an obvious potential for such bias to have existed. OIG just coudln't find "documentary or testimonal" evidence of it. There were no emails and no one talked, but if that's the standard for "so there was no crime" the mafia in this country should be on easy street.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW, I'm not sure Comey was politically motivated. Strozk obviously was, and I'm sure others, but Comey may just be an incompetent idiot. B/c he managed to tick off just about everyone on both sides of the aisle and in fact both sides are roasting him with this report with equal fervor.

but Strozk is obvious, and he ran the Hillary investigation. ANd if these texts hadn't been found he'd still be a very senior player on the Mueller team. A team where the vast majority of members have actually been donors to Democratic campaigns.

[suncat05]

Now we hear that 5 FBI employees are going to be referred for possible criminal investigations.
Just as I said before, some low level employees are going to be offered up as sacrificial lambs on the altar of so-called justice while the real criminals are going to skate with no repercussions.
And just like I told you guys before, you cannot trust these azzholes to police themselves, because they won't.
This entire situation is a farce.

[KeithKSR]

IMO what that really says, and I'm sure the FBI and DOJ had a lot of influence in this part, is that the OIG coulnd't find "documentary evidence" or "testimonial evidence" of bias.

That is to say, they didn't find an email or get a statement that said "hey, we need to make sure and go easy on this interview" or "we need to give Abedin immunity" to "protect Hillary and make sure she can win this election." Well duh! No, I would hope they weren't dumb enough to put actual admissions of their bias into department recorded emails.

These texts between page and Strzok were uncovered, but how many more conversations happened with nothing on the record, or on encrypted non FBI devices? OIG has no power to subpoena FBI agent's personal phones or records, so we don't know.

So it says the obvious in the end: there was no smoking gun email laying around or some drawn up formal written down plan to execute, but the Strozk emails show there was at least an obvious potential for such bias to have existed. OIG just coudln't find "documentary or testimonal" evidence of it. There were no emails and no one talked, but if that's the standard for "so there was no crime" the mafia in this country should be on easy street.

Interpretation, the IG felt that political bias was a factor, but could find no direct evidence. On the other hand, the Strzok texts indicate there was bias in the Trump case.

[Doc]

I prefer Soylent yellow since Im a vegan.

That basically encompasses the level of interest and faith I have in the Meuller investigation. The farse that it was about Russian interference in our election when in reality it was a effort to go after Trump is one thing but then add the relative ignoring of a MAJOR national security breach by the Secnof State, something far more serious, only highlights the selectivity, and the length and side branches....Ive lost all interest

[bigsky]

National politics are corrupt. State politics are corrupt. In what situation would thinking people trust members of two parties who have deiven this country 21 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT?????!!!!

Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump. It’s not funny; it’s like our country crapping the bed and ignoring that we’ve lost control of our body functions.

[kingcat]

no matter what the report had contained the reaction would be the same imo. The odds weigh heavy that the report is spot on and the rest is just covenient and expected spin.

These five members of the so called “deep state” had an opinion. That does not preclude them doing their job thoroughly. The fact is that the Republican Party controls most every facet of govt and if there is anything there they would find it. So maybe most of it it was fake news all along presented as alternate facts

[bigsky]

Feeling free to have your “get Trump” opinions part of your official publicly discoverable FBI email chain is sufficient competent evidence of allowed and approved bias, in my opinion.

[kingcat]

Feeling free to have your “get Trump” opinions part of your official publicly discoverable FBI email chain is sufficient competent evidence of allowed and approved bias, in my opinion.

Approved is a reach. And it somewhat depends on if they are referring to facts not yet made public.
Maybe you will agree with their opinion, if not how it was expressed, at some point.

[CitizenBBN]

The fact is that the Republican Party controls most every facet of govt and if there is anything there they would find it. So maybe most of it it was fake news all along presented as alternate facts

You really think the GOP controls the government? 98% of government employees are Democrats, and yet in 500 days they are all packed up and gone or loyally doing as ordered by the new administration. Sure.

Saying they have an "opinion" is about as tepid a description as you could have used. Saying "we'll stop it" (a Trump presidency) is a long way past simple opinion. That's not opinion. "Insurance plans" aren't opinions.

Their "opinion" of trump is clearly as negative or more than yours an History's. Can they do their job? Sure, and I'm sure some or many did, but clearly some felt they were in the position to save or destroy "the Republic". They, like you, really think Trump as President is the end of America. that's a very strong view to have and then get objectivity.

That doesn't even touch on the texts relating to them investigating someone they thought would be their next boss.

It put them in a very difficult situation, and if there were no suspicious activities then that's OK too. but the OIG report specifically calls out several odd decisions. First, FBI never tried to get emails from the devices of Clinton's key staff, and even the IG says their explanation wasn't satisfactory. They also lacked much of a reason as to why her staff was given immunity, and why two potential witnesses were allowed to sit in on her interview.

If you read the report details it's clear he couldn't PROVE bias, but he strongly suspects it.

But forget all that. How about the fact that the FBI didn't disclose some of those key texts to the Congressional oversight committees? That on its face is a failure of the FBI to conform to the laws of the land. Congress has a right and obligation to review that information, and clearly it was redacted not b/c of national security or sources but b/c it made the FBI look bad.

They knew the "we'll stop it" text would be a firestorm, so they didn't let Congress see it. At the same time they don't think they answer to the White House either.

Doesn't it concern you that a large bureaucracy with nearly unlimited powers of prosecution doesn't think it has to be accountable to anyone?

THAT is the deep state. YEs currently there's a lot of Anti-Trump in it, but when Trump is gone the DOJ/FBI will still be here, and will still think they are above answering to the elected representatives of The People.

that's the definition of a deep state. So no, I think this IG report shows glaringly that these "alternative facts" are deadly accurate facts. The DOJ and FBI are intentionally trying to circumvent oversight by any of the three branches of government, hiding everything from these embarrassing and questionable texts to what they spent on a conference table. If they're willing to violate the law to hide this stuff, what else are they hiding?

Take off the Trump glasses and look at the bigger issue here. This is only about trump for the next 3 to 7 years, but the real issue is our government has been hijacked by people who answer to no one. the fact that they politically happen to agree with you shouldn't be very comforting.

[Doc]

The fact is that the Republican Party controls most every facet of govt and if there is anything there they would find it. So maybe most of it it was fake news all along presented as alternate facts

Where did you ever get that idea? That is so far from accurate it's bizzare. Sure, there is a GOP as president and both houses of congress are GOP controlled but the grass roots of the government is staffed by democrats. Anybody who works in the government will verify that. My wife monitors what I post on facebook because of the people at her government job. I have had to remove or been forbidden to post certain images based on who she works with since they don't hold the DEMOCRAT line of thinking and she does not want to deal with the aftermath.

[CitizenBBN]

Here's a perspective of a former FBI agent:

It was the hope of many of my current and former colleagues in the FBI that Inspector General Horowitz would be courageous enough to unmask Comey and his inner circle for what they were – rogue officials who played by their own rules, leaked with impunity and allowed their personal political biases to impact one of the most important investigations the FBI has ever conducted.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/...nst-trump.html

The article does a good job hitting on some of the real issues in the IG report that are getting glossed over. here's one that should raise real concerns:

Charts included in the report depict over 300 phone calls to five separate reporters from FBI employees. These employees accepted gifts of every description, including meals, drinks, sports tickets and golf outings.

If you're out there leaking to reporters, the only reason to do so is to have an influence outside of the investigation, i.e. a political impact. We're not talking 1-2 calls to maybe clarify something that's gone rampant with speculation but us untrue, but 100s of calls with multiple actors getting chummy with reporters.

That's not "having an opinion". That's having an opinion and taking action in violation of FBI procedures and rules in order to act on that opinion. They were willing to break those rules for their opinions, what other rules got bent or broken? What other information have they not shared with Congressional oversight?

This whole thing stinks bad. There are just too many "questionable" calls in the investigations, too many people with near rage in their attitudes about Trump, too many people who thought Hillary would be their boss, too many leaks, etc.

And it stinks bad well beyond Trump. Trump will pass and fade into history just like Obama. What will not fade is this post Nixonian notion that the DOJ and FBI are somehow independent agencies answerable to no elected or judicial authority, and they seem to be jointed by our intelligence apparatus as well.

That should be scaring the hell out of people on both sides of the Trump debate, b/c there's your real threat to the nation's future.

[kingcat]

What scares me is the fact that there is guilt and admitted guilt on a federal level relative to our national security and Trump supporters are angry that the investigation is moving forward.

That is unprecedented, and dangerous because this is not a biased investigation and everyone
(deep inside) knows it. The"possible" results are what angers Trump supporters.
Because, no matter what lengths some in this administration might have gone to does not matter because, for most, the results are worth any cost.

Mr. Mueller is and has been the right man for the job. I think he is "untouchable"..a modern day Elliot Ness.

That is how history will read if my strong conservative friends cant find some rational and tangible bias..and so some are grasping at any straw that can be, or has been manufactured by the current government..

This investigation will finish and some will be prosecuted. even for what amounts to treason as it should be.. We all hope that the President is not involved directly in any malfeasance.
The truth will win out in the end whatever that may end up being

But I want to know for sure..and I'd hope everyone would say that.

Regardless, the guilty will pay and I know my friends are happy about that part of things, surely

[CitizenBBN]

What scares me is the fact that there is guilt and admitted guilt on a federal level relative to our national security and Trump supporters are angry that the investigation is moving forward.

I'd love for that investigation to move forward. Are they finally going after Hillary again? I hadn't heard.

What guilt are you referring to that is admitted?

And no, the guilty won't pay. that much seems clear so far.

And as for means justifying the ends, that's the Left's specialty. Did Trump smash phones and delete emails under federal subpoena?

If Trump or whoever is guilty fine, but I want equality before the law more than I want any law selectively enforced. don't bust one guy for pot while you let another go free. either they both get busted or both walk.

What I see is a spectacularly unequal enforcement of the laws, one being made into an extreme stretch just to get any shred of a crime, and the other a cavalcade of crimes going untouched. Mueller has charged Manfort with witness tampering. OK, then what is the FBI letting key witnesses sit in on Hillary's interview? What is it when they destroy a number of devices under subpeona and destroy records? Isn't that evidence tampering on the same scale? Why is Huma Abedin not under the same scrutiny as Manafort? I'm all for BOTH of them being investigated, but not just one when the other with the same questions walks free.

Equality before the law is far more important than the actual laws on the books, b/c one is a banana republic farce and one is the rule of law applying to all the people.

I don't care about the individual outcome. As I said Trump will be history in time no matter what Mueller does. That's a given of our system. I do care that our central goverment in Washington clearly is operating without a leash to the People of this country.

I could make the same claim with you you make with me, that you are only all for Mueller and this bureaucrat run process b/c you happen to like the current target. If this were a bunch of conservatives with conservative opinions all out there after Obama you might be singing a different tune.

Me, I care about the lack of oversight with an agency that since Nixon apparently thinks it answers to no one. That's the "deep state", and regardless of target it is alive and well.

[kingcat]

I could make the same claim with you you make with me, that you are only all for Mueller and this bureaucrat run process b/c you happen to like the current target. If this were a bunch of conservatives with conservative opinions all out there after Obama you might be singing a different tune.

Not if patriotism and loyalty to this country are at stake.

If anyone has accepted the illegal support of Putin and Russia reelated to our election process, they should be tried and convicted of treason. That goes for Obama, Trump, or Hillary..and their subordinates
And anyone who prefers outside interference by our enemies to the democratic process representing the citizens of this nation, they should historically be considered treasonous also.

But if and when charges might be brought against those you mention I will not take the stand that you are.
The reason there are no such charges is not that the poor republican party is too weak to act in light of the "deep state" boogie man.......it's that there is no adequate proof to bring such charges. Only innuendo and political spin which Mueller is sifting through to get at the truth in this instance.
Nothing there? Then nothing to fear.

I love you man. But you are 100% wrong here I truly believe.

Perhaps as wrong as I have ever seen you..

Not because you believe Trump has been treated unfairly or is innocent, but because you do not care to know the truth or pursue justice. Instead implying there is no justice to be had under the laws of the United States of America.


Gotta' run for a few hours

[Catonahottinroof]

I think the justice problem you run into in this situation is the the justice pursued or meted out now has a political component to it that cannot be missed by an unbiased opinion. That is not really justice, is it? It borders on deep anarchy for a better choice of words than deep state. There is a level of law breaking done by a few who wield political power that will never see justice in any form, while anyone who is not part of that political apparatus is crucified for a similar action. That’s not just a figment of my imagination, as there are cases that point this out directly and indirectly.
This situation with Trump is becoming more and more like Whitewater every day. Nothing that came along in Whitewater could be found to hang Clinton up on, and this will be the same thing.
If a charge ends up coming to fruition, it won’t have diddly to do with Russian influence or attempts at swinging the election. It will be something far different, for political purposes just as Clinton’s was.

Not if patriotism and loyalty to this country are at stake.

If anyone has accepted the illegal support of Putin and Russia reelated to our election process, they should be tried and convicted of treason. That goes for Obama, Trump, or Hillary..and their subordinates
And anyone who prefers outside interference by our enemies to the democratic process representing the citizens of this nation, they should historically be considered treasonous also.

But if and when charges might be brought against those you mention I will not take the stand that you are.
The reason there are no such charges is not that the poor republican party is too weak to act in light of the "deep state" boogie man.......it's that there is no adequate proof to bring such charges. Only innuendo and political spin which Mueller is sifting through to get at the truth in this instance.
Nothing there? Then nothing to fear.

I love you man. But you are 100% wrong here I truly believe.

Perhaps as wrong as I have ever seen you..

Not because you believe Trump has been treated unfairly or is innocent, but because you do not care to know the truth or pursue justice. Instead implying there is no justice to be had under the laws of the United States of America.


Gotta' run for a few hours

[CitizenBBN]

Not because you believe Trump has been treated unfairly or is innocent, but because you do not care to know the truth or pursue justice. Instead implying there is no justice to be had under the laws of the United States of America.


Gotta' run for a few hours

Don't presume that I don't want justice. I just know the difference between the pursuit of justice an the arbitrary application of laws for gain.

If this investigation were going after what you listed, what you think it is about, I'd be all for it. But then it would be going after the cash payments to Bill when hillary was secretary of state from a bank run by Putin's financial empire. It would be pressuring Podesta and his brother just as hard as it is Manfort. It would be squeezing Huma Abedin about her emails implying pay for play as hard as it is squeezing Cohen.

If that were happening then great, we have a real investigation into wrong doing and foreign influence and maybe we can clean some things up.

But what we have here is politics, and I'm not naive enough to think that's rain coming down my back.

As for charges being the only proof of wrong doing, Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion. They couldn't pin a single murder on him, or even illegal booze. in the end at this level who is convicted often has little to do with who is wrong, just who is more powerful.

I'm not defending Trump in this if you notice. Or Manafort, etc. Never have, not once.

What I have observed is that the laws are being applied in a very biased way. It doesn't mean Trump is innocent of anything, but I am old enough to know that a) everyone is guilty of something if you look hard enough, and b) who gets prosecuted in this country at this level has very little to do with who did the most wrong.

[CitizenBBN]

In the end, Washington DC doesn't want its sleazy underbelly put out there for the people to see. No way. Foreign influence? corruption? DC is up to its eyeballs in it.

Everyone in DC is tied to someone with foreign influence. The Clinton's are up to their eyeballs in it, but they all are drinking from that trough.

As much as you don't see it, I'm not pro Trump. I'm Anti-Washington. You see a pursuit of justice, IMO b/c you were convinced by "your side" he was all these evil things long ago, but I see a struggle for political power.

I guarantee you, with the money and power involved, I'm right. This was never about justice, any more than it was with Clinton. Follow the money. It's always about money and power.

Only us simple folk out here in the wasteland believe in things like justice.

[bigsky]

Patriotism would dictate revolution. I have wanted it peacefully: balanced budget amendment, sunset of washington bureaucracies, limited powers in exec and legislative federal govt, roll back of military excess, stronger individual rights protections, protection of private property.

[badrose]

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...er-president-4

[badrose]

Patriotism would dictate revolution. I have wanted it peacefully: balanced budget amendment, sunset of washington bureaucracies, limited powers in exec and legislative federal govt, roll back of military excess, stronger individual rights protections, protection of private property.

[CitizenBBN]

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...er-president-4

Good find.

Let me ask it this way. If UK and UL were being investigated by the NCAA, by the same team, and it was found that the senior people on the team were all lifelong UL fans and we had multiple, nah dozens and dozens, of texts between them all hoping for UK's ruination and UL to win the title, and when one of them said "UK won't win the title this year will they???" the other response "no, we won't let them."

Then that team announces that UL had done no wrong and UK was recommended the death penalty, would those defending these FBI/DOJ actors defend them as just having "opinions" that didn't necessarily bias their work?

[CitizenBBN]

Think we're against the way this investigation is being run b/c we're just biased? Clearly so, that's stated above pretty clearly.

How about if we're citing sources and statements I cite Alan Dershowitz, lifelong liberal Democrat and one of the leading civil rights authorities and scholars in American history:

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/06/1...s-constitution

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...e-investigated

From the Washington Examiner piece it's clear there are real questions about Mueller's tactics and ethics as an investigator, and he's not alone on his team. Yet, as Dershowitz says:

But these “Get Trump At Any Cost” partisans have rejected my call for an investigation, out of fear that it may turn up information that might tarnish the image of the special counsel who is investigating Trump. Instead they criticize those of us who point out Mueller was “at the center” of the Justice Department and FBI while this miscarriage of justice occurred. All civil libertarians should want the truth about this sordid episode, and Mueller’s possible role in it, regardless of its impact, if any, on the Trump investigation. Mueller should welcome an objective investigation, which might eliminate any doubt about his role in this travesty. But too many former civil libertarians are prepared to sacrifice civil liberties and the quest for truth on the altar of “Get Trump.”

So if we're weighing sources, John McCain, war hero and man censured by the Senate for the unethical use of his office for a donor, thinks this is all dandy. Alan Dershowitz, the nation's leading civil libertarian and a man who disagrees with nearly every single policy position Trump has taken, thinks this is highly questionable and those questions are being ignored b/c of people's blind hate of Trump.

[kingcat]

More equivalent to finding a racist couple of cops in a large city and then claiming the whole department is crooked.
And then refusing to agree with the department investigating a potential major crime because the minority is involved.

[CitizenBBN]

More equivalent to finding a racist couple of cops in a large city and then claiming the whole department is crooked.
And then refusing to agree with the department investigating a potential major crime because the minority is involved.

Not even close. First where have I or anyone indicted the entire FBI or DOJ? I think they are operating without oversight b/c the senior people wont' comply, but that's a failed analogy.

Second, what if those cops found using the N-word in texts, and their close long time associates, were the ones put in charge of the investigation of racism in the department? What if they were the ones investigating the black mayor on charges?

That's the analogy. We have proof of bias with multiple people working these investigations. Dershowitz himself has questioned Mueller as a prosecutor and FBI director, and his 2nd in command has been found to have commited various levels of prosecutorial misconduct more than once by a judge.

Your direction is sound, but if you get apples to apples you only end up making my case. No people or city or federal authority would accept an investigation into racial issues if the senior people were found having racist views. it would be thrown out, those people disciplined, and a new one started.

I have no doubt a lot of the FBI people are good hard working law enforcement officers, and in fact there are multiple statements by several former FBI people calling out Comey and Mueller and others b/c they feel these political people at the top have damaged the FBI.

Go talk to cops in big cities. They'll tell you that the chiefs and senior people are all politicians, that's how they got there. Most are appointed by mayors, they have to play the game. They aren't like the front line guys trying to just enforce the law and protect people and bust bad guys.

Same thing here. It's not the rank and file people in Washington who are the problem. It's the career political types who rise to those top levels who are the issue. Those people are as corrupt as anyone.