OT: Jason Collins Announcement

[BigBlueBrock]

If I walked into a women's locker room and went into the showers and started showering with the women that were in there showering I would more than likely be arrested and at the very minimum be thrown out with force. What's the difference if a man that is attracted to men like I am attracted to women walks into a men's locker room and begins showering with other men?

Just a question......... I personally would feel as uncomfortable as I imagine a woman would feel if a guy walked into her shower.

The sexual dynamics of all-male locker rooms are completely different than theoretical coed locker rooms. Unless you mean to tell me male locker rooms aren't already one of the gayest places on the planet. I mean, they've been showering with him for years already and suddenly, now that they KNOW he's gay (if any of his teammates didn't already know), it's an issue? Please. Asking this question displays a fundamental misunderstanding of how human beings are around their own sex vs the opposite, at least as far as men's behavior goes.

That isn't to say that his teammates don't have a right to feel uncomfortable showering with him and if they CHOOSE not to do so, that's fine. But Collins shouldn't be forced to shower alone simply because he's now an outed homosexual. If his behavior remains within the limits of what already happens in men's locker rooms, then there shouldn't be an issue.

And if, one day, we as a society grow out of the current rape culture that has existed for decades, then you'll see coed locker rooms and showers. Unfortunately, we haven't gotten there as a society, yet.

[Edward100]

My friend(s), I see we have different opinion on this subject. I will leave this conversation with this thought, “Each person will have to answer for the choices they make on any given subject throughout their life be it good, bad or otherwise. In the end we all reap what we sow be it good, bad or otherwise. Thank you and have a nice day.

[BigBlueBrock]

My friend(s), I see we have different opinion on this subject. I will leave this conversation with this thought, “Each person will have to answer for the choices they make on any given subject throughout their life be it good, bad or otherwise. In the end we all reap what we sow be it good, bad or otherwise. Thank you and have a nice day.

What does this even mean?

[bigsky]

In the end we're all dead.

[Edward100]

Big Blue Brock, I’m implying that no matter what we do in life we have to live with the circumstances created by our actions/choices. To agree or disagree on any subject is everyone’s right. A man kills 23 girls and is caught. He is sentenced to be hung by the neck until dead. His actions/choices made by him merited the sentence he got. He has to be accountable for his actions/choices.

Sowing and reaping is a natural fact. You plant corn seeds and you harvest corn. You can’t plant corn seeds and expect grapes. The same principal can be applied to ANY action/choice. Weather we agree or disagree has nothing to do with this statement.

[BigBlueBrock]

Big Blue Brock, I’m implying that no matter what we do in life we have to live with the circumstances created by our actions/choices. To agree or disagree on any subject is everyone’s right. A man kills 23 girls and is caught. He is sentenced to be hung by the neck until dead. His actions/choices made by him merited the sentence he got. He has to be accountable for his actions/choices.

Sowing and reaping is a natural fact. You plant corn seeds and you harvest corn. You can’t plant corn seeds and expect grapes. The same principal can be applied to ANY action/choice. Weather we agree or disagree has nothing to do with this statement.

That's all dandy. But what in the blue frick does any of that have to do with who a person likes to boff? Are you saying that having sex with those of your own gender is something for which a person would have to pay in the future? How? Why? Who is exacting a price for someone's sexuality in this scenario, pray tell?

[badrose]

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

I'm a Christian and I'm afraid we've really missed the boat on this. We're supposed to be the salt of the earth through being the embodiment of those two verses. It is way too easy to condemn, judge, and legislate than love convincingly enough to make a difference in others' lives. I've been guilty of all of that and hypocritical at the same time. Jesus defined 'neighbor' as pretty much everybody and nothing at any time disqualifies. Loving means getting to know, without judgement or condemnation, caring, being patient, non-sexually affectionate (if that is your nature), finding common ground, making yourself approachable and available, careful not to hurt, and trying to put yourself in their position. All of this puts you in the position to allow others to see the peace that goes beyond their understanding and they would naturally ask you where it comes from. At that point you are free to share and explain. Understanding God's grace allows us to do these things from the heart and not worry about whatever response we may get in return because we are compelled to love and forgive just as God continues to love and forgive us.

More later...

[BigBlueBrock]

Good post, badrose. I'm an agnostic theist, but if more Christians were like you and more interested in spreading the teachings of Christ (i.e., love, peace, good will, kindness, no judgment, etc), as opposed to the intolerance of the Old Testament, then we'd be in a much better place as a society.

[bigsky]

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

I'm a Christian and I'm afraid we've really missed the boat on this. We're supposed to be the salt of the earth through being the embodiment of those two verses. It is way too easy to condemn, judge, and legislate than love convincingly enough to make a difference in others' lives. I've been guilty of all of that and hypocritical at the same time. Jesus defined 'neighbor' as pretty much everybody and nothing at any time disqualifies. Loving means getting to know, without judgement or condemnation, caring, being patient, non-sexually affectionate (if that is your nature), finding common ground, making yourself approachable and available, careful not to hurt, and trying to put yourself in their position. All of this puts you in the position to allow others to see the peace that goes beyond their understanding and they would naturally ask you where it comes from. At that point you are free to share and explain. Understanding God's grace allows us to do these things from the heart and not worry about whatever response we may get in return because we are compelled to love and forgive just as God continues to love and forgive us.

More later...

You've grown wise, young Padewan. Neighbor was the possibly dead guy in need of help by the side of the road...

[badrose]

You've grown wise, young Padewan. Neighbor was the possibly dead guy in need of help by the side of the road...

You guys need to be careful. I ain't done yet.

BTW the neighbor wasn't dead. He was presumed dead by the priest, and Levite because it was considered "unclean" for them to touch him if he was and thus didn't bother to check and see in case they might actually have to go out of their way to help him. Jesus knew his audience well.

[bigsky]

Big Blue Brock, I’m implying that no matter what we do in life we have to live with the circumstances created by our actions/choices. To agree or disagree on any subject is everyone’s right. A man kills 23 girls and is caught. He is sentenced to be hung by the neck until dead. His actions/choices made by him merited the sentence he got. He has to be accountable for his actions/choices.

Sowing and reaping is a natural fact. You plant corn seeds and you harvest corn. You can’t plant corn seeds and expect grapes. The same principal can be applied to ANY action/choice. Weather we agree or disagree has nothing to do with this statement.

If you get right down to it, the doctrines emphasizing "whosoever believeth" ignore works. And "foreordained" and "predestined" remove choice.

The two precepts badrose quotes provide a guide for living in the material world, not imagining a vengeful Jehovah picking winners and losers.

[bigsky]

You guys need to be careful. I ain't done yet.

BTW the neighbor wasn't dead. He was presumed dead by the priest, and Levite because it was considered "unclean" for them to touch him and thus didn't bother to check and see in case they might actually have to go out of their way to help him. Jesus knew his audience well.

The Samaritan risked it all; in this life and "the next". Now, go and do likewise, eh?

I get it. Just doesn't need all the other to get there.

[ukpumacat]

I’m implying that no matter what we do in life we have to live with the circumstances created by our actions/choices.

I think we all agree with that. Where we disagree is that you (and others) believe it is a choice to be gay, and I (and others) do not. Therefore, your point is moot in this discussion (from my perspective). A gay person will not live with the "choice" to be gay any more than I will live with the choice that I am a dude. I didn't choose it. I just am. I was born and I had a penis. Didn't choose it, just did. And when I was old enough to look at a girl in my class, that penis got excited. I didn't choose for it to behave that way when I saw a girl, it just did (and I had to cover it up with textbooks). And when I looked at boys, it didn't move. Didn't choose it that way. It just did.
Now, it is my choice who I look at and how often. Its my choice who I have sex with. Its my choice if its protected or now. And all of those choices have consequences. But, if you locked me down and made me watch 2 dudes humping (against my choice), my penis would still not move. Because I am straight. Didn't choose it. Just am.

[jazyd]

Unless I have missed something here, no one has condemned Collins for what he is, but Christians have voiced their opinion about the sin which those that do not believe or have decided to only accept the teachings of their church that go along with how they personallly believe, have not accepted as a sin. The Bible teaches us to love the sinner but hate the sin. Those of us that are Christians and accept wholly the teachings of the Bible regard homosexuality as a sin and it has been state here. Unfortunately there are those that would rather criticize Christians for their beliefs and act as if only they and their beliefs are to be accepted.

Collins could choose to change, there have been many that have done just that.

[Krank]

Collins could choose to change, there have been many that have done just that.

The vast majority of those who have "been saved from" homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality, and transgenderism have found that they have been lying to themselves after, typically, not too much time. If the opposite were true, there would be a lot more testimonials from gay Christians, especially after a fair amount of time to test the two theories, who claimed long-lasting success in "converting" to heterosexuality.

I do not have statistics handy and, frankly, have to go offline now, but just wanted to mention that the phenomenon you mention has been studied thoroughly from a variety of angles and the one consistency is that one's sexual choice comes naturally, NOT as a choice.

Religious folks who DO deem ANY form of non-heterosexual behavior to be "sinful" and a sentence to eternal "hell" if they do not "repent" may not like that, but science and actual human experiences back that up with very rare exceptions, and even those usually are found to be in such turmoil that admitting to their biological reality is either too painful or would cause too much strife in their complicated personal, religious, and professional lives.

BTW, I would be very curious to know how the Biblical literalists who claim their knowledge and understanding of Judeo-Christian gospels is unassailable would identify hermaphroditic folks and who THEY choose to be with on a sexual/relationship level.

Any takers on that?

[BigBlueBrock]

Unfortunately there are those that would rather criticize Christians for their beliefs and act as if only they and their beliefs are to be accepted.

Well, one belief system begets intolerance and bigotry, whereas the other belief system is inclusive and doesn't judge a person simply because they are attracted to their own sex. Why should Collins choose to change who he is simply because the narrow-minded think he's "icky"? You use the Bible as your moral compass. I wonder, did you ever try to sell your daughter into slavery? Because, you know, that's perfectly OK according to Bible. Do you let women talk in your church? Because they're supposed to keep quiet according to the Bible. Do you hang a man for working on the Sabbath? Because you're supposed to according to the Bible.

Many many things are "sanctioned" by the Bible that society has long since recognized as being draconian both in principle and in application. It simply happens that homosexuality is one of the few remaining Old Testament "sins" some Christians use as justification for being bigoted and intolerant.

[BigBlueBrock]

And ya know, I wouldn't have a problem with some Christians continuing to believe that homosexuality is a sin so long as they kept it within their congregation and didn't use it as justification to legislate their particular theocratic morality and deny rights and privileges to LGBT couples.

[ukpumacat]

Sorry, this is a long post...feel free to skip down and read my summary at the bottom.
Not that it makes any difference to the conversation, but I am a Christian who believes the Bible. And I do not believe the Bible teaches it is a sin (no way I can explain that on here...but it is a gross mis-interpretation). So, let me comment from a Christian view (since I tried a logical approach):
Even if a Christian does believe its a sin, 1 Corinthians 5:12 is as clear as can be about how this issue should be handled by those who do believe it is a sin:
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?".
Somehow, that verse (and entire passage) has been completely ignored by the vast majority of the Christian community. If you have someone who has chosen to go to your church...sure, feel free to talk with them about what you believe they are doing is wrong. But as for those outside your church, what business is it of yours? That's Paul saying that.
By the way, the Bible doesn't teach us to love the sinner and hate the sin. That's a phrase that is used often by Christians, but is not found in the Bible. The Bible teaches us to love others and put them above ourselves.
For me, this issue was decided when I read how Jesus lived. And that is true no matter what you believe about being gay (sin or not). On one hand, He never said a word about it. That doesn't conclusively mean he thought it was not a sin, but its significant to me historically (which is a whole other can of worms).
Second, for those that do believe its a sin...You will not find many examples of Jesus walking up to anyone and telling them what they are doing is wrong. Or stopping them from doing wrong. And He knew. He knew better than anyone else. But that wasn't His approach or mission. He didn't lead from a power or political standpoint, and He didn't change people by telling them their behavior (or not) was wrong. He loved them. Served instead of ruled. He valued people just as they were.
And as I am sure you have heard a hundred times, the only people He clearly "Judged", was the religious people who told others what they did was wrong (you know, like the Pharisee who prayed and said, "God, thank you I am not like that guy (a "sinner")." He couldn't stand those people.
For me, as a Christian, its pretty simple. Which side of this fence would Jesus be on? How would He treat people, even if He thought they were wrong? How would He vote (Answer: He wouldn't)?
Summary: You can be a Christian, believe the Bible, and not believe its a sin.
Even if you do believe its a sin, its not any of your business what other people are doing outside your church.

P.S. Brock, you would probably like my church. Just sayin.

[ukpumacat]

BTW, I would be very curious to know how the Biblical literalists who claim their knowledge and understanding of Judeo-Christian gospels is unassailable would identify hermaphroditic folks and who THEY choose to be with on a sexual/relationship level.

Any takers on that?

[elicat]

This thread has become a UCC echo chamber.

[badrose]

And ya know, I wouldn't have a problem with some Christians continuing to believe that homosexuality is a sin so long as they kept it within their congregation and didn't use it as justification to legislate their particular theocratic morality and deny rights and privileges to LGBT couples.

I agree with that 100% Legislation changes nothing, sin or no sin, merely strengthens resolve.

[badrose]

BTW, I would be very curious to know how the Biblical literalists who claim their knowledge and understanding of Judeo-Christian gospels is unassailable would identify hermaphroditic folks and who THEY choose to be with on a sexual/relationship level.

Any takers on that?

Not a literalist. Context is everything. Probably would get chastized from my brethren, but I would say go with the way you lean, or check out both ways, pray about it, and pick one.

[jazyd]

But those like Brock want to legislate their beliefs or feelings, seems the 'progressives' always look down their nose or other things at those who choose to believe different than they do but somehow only those that are 'progessive' in their thinking know what the heck is going on. I always laugh at people like brock or just ignore them.

I also find it interesting as I said before about Christians who only believe what they want to believe in the Bible as long as it pertains to how they think. Homosexuality is a sin, just as many other things that we all do is a sin. It is not a natural act.

Now I could care less what Collins does or doesn't do, it is his life so live it like he wants but just don't go around trying to force his thought process on young children. Now, courageous what he did, heck no. If he had told the world 8 years ago he was a homosexual, it would be a little more courageous, now, nope too many love the homosexuals and their way of life and believe they should have extra benefits because of what they do in their beds. Courageous is jumping on a live grenade to save your military buddies, courageous is jumping in front of a bus and pushing someone out of the way to save their life, courageous is jumping in water to rescue someone trapped in a car under water, it is not telling the world you like men better than women.

As far as love the sinner but not the sin, no that exact wording is not in the Bible, good phrase, one evidently puma doesn't believe in. But tell me where the Bible and its teachings tell us we are to love sin, because if you can show me that, then why do we have the ten commandments. Why do we even have any teachings what so ever about sin? Why doesn't the Bible just tell us to have a great time on earth and we will see everyone in heaven? We are told to love one another, we are told there is sin in the world and that each of us is a sinner and we are to confess our sins. And we are told there is one way to heaven, and it isn't thru works. And in the Old Testament and the New we are told what homosexual behavior is. And while it is human nature to judge people on so many ways, we are also told that only One will have the final judgment. If puma is right then all who live in daily sin, never repent, and thumb their noses at the teachings of God thru the Old and New Testaments will end up in the same place as Billy Graham when they die. The person who murders a child is just as good as the homosexual, no difference according to puma.


Now what I think he did was this. He is 34, makes way too much for what little he does, such as averaging less than 2 pts and less than 2 boards a game and more than likely does not get a contract next year for his big salary since he will be a free agent this summer. But if he finally gets around to telling the world he is a homosexual there is no way the NBA can not give him a contract in spite of the fact he isn't needed any longer and any NBA team can get someone who can produce what little he did for half the lprice, someone like Josh H at min wage contract. Too many who know nothing about basketball would scream bloddy mary, including your progessive president, if this guy doesn't get a contract now and he knew it. He played the game, now gets a big contract next year for sitting on his butt at the end of the bench, might play 20 games if he is lucky. Smart guy. And all these players claiming it makes no difference to have a known homosexual in their locker room parading around naked, I dont' believe it for a second when it comes to reality.

Like edward said, we are each accountable for our actions but on judgement day, I would not want to be in the shoes of Collins or others who daily live in sin on purpose, who thumb their nose at God and the teachings of the Bible and who try to convince people they are Christians but it is okay to change the way the Bible is to their way of thinking. I have done enough sin in my life w/o worrying about things like that. I am a sinner, do it daily because I am weak, and i ask forgiveness each night and for strength to change.

I agree with that 100% Legislation changes nothing, sin or no sin, merely strengthens resolve.

[ukpumacat]

I appreciate your viewpoint Jazy. I don't agree, but I appreciate you sharing it.

[BigBlueBrock]

You know what? Not even worth the effort. Gay marriage will slowly be recognized as equal under the law across the country and there's naught people like jazy or Edward can do about it but piss and moan on message boards. I wonder if this is how it felt to argue on the side of equal rights and protections under the law for blacks in the 60s...

[dan_bgblue]

puma I did not want to quote your entire post so everyone would know which one I was responding to, so

Sorry, this is a long post...feel free to skip down and read my summary at the bottom.

Outstanding thoughts

[elicat]

It's amateur hour on the theology board, apparently.

[Padukacat]

Its not about intolerance, its about truth is it not? There is only one truth, and that truth could care less about tolerance. Its the method by which the truth is taught or debated which causes human beings to allow feelings to enter and muddy the waters.....as seen above by the judgements being thrown out by both sides. But in the end, there are not two right answers, there is only One.

[elicat]

How about some Wolfhart Pannenberg, just to bring the voice of someone who isn't making it up as he goes along into this discussion.

[jazyd]

Puma, I could not find the word rape in my Bible so according to you since it wasn't specifically mentioned, as far as we know since none of the writers mentioned it, by Jesus then it must be okay to rape a child or anyone else.

I Corinthians 6:9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor the idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor 'homosexual' offenders 10 not thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what so e of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our Lord.

Gal 5:16-24. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of sinful nature are obvious sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft, hatred.
, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of a God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
6:7-8. Do not be deceived. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction, the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Puma, that is from the New Testament and I am pretty sure it is very explicit and maybe your church doesn't teach that nor believes that part of the Bible. Paul didnt mince any words there. Just because they didnt come directly from Jesus himself doesn't mean He wasn't involved with that teaching as I am pretty sure Paul was teaching from what he learned.

From the Old Testamlent

Lev 18-22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable.
18-30. Keep my requirements, and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and donor defile yourselves with them. I am the lLord your God.

Since I accept the teachings of the Bible and feel they are Gods words given to us on how we are to live and treat people, I love the sinner but hate the sin.

You questioned whether homosexuality is a sin because Jesus didnt speak directly about it, so using your reasoning I can't find where Jesus said directly for a man not to rape a child so it must not be a sin since He had other things on His mind at that time.

I know those that have told me they are Christians but don't take the Bible as being perfect and that it should be a living word that changes as they wish, you seem to beone of those. That is fine, do as you want but you and others should not criticize those of us that that take these words as they are written and accept them. The Old Testament is clear about homosexuality and so is the New Testament. Unlike those like Brock I am not going to say you must believe my way or you are a kook. For those that are Catholic, and one I have ad long discussions in the past reading how he said he was so strong in his belief in the church, I smile when they write words here that they believe is okay that is in direct conflict with the teachings of be Catholic Church.

Colin's can do what he wants, he played a smart hand to insure himself a million dollar contract.