http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mag...ay-nba-player/
Courageous. And I think the fact that he's a twin (who is apparently heterosexual) makes it even more interesting.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mag...ay-nba-player/
Courageous. And I think the fact that he's a twin (who is apparently heterosexual) makes it even more interesting.
Is it more brave/courageous to be gay when it's approved and defended by the medial, or pro-life when its ridiculed by the media?
Let's ask Amos n Andy...
Exactly. It's either courageous or opportunistic.Originally Posted by CGWildcat
In this society, it is always brave to come out, especially in an ultra-machismo environment like sports. Media coverage is irrelevant when one is subject to extreme prejudice on a daily basis on an individual and professional level.
I have no idea what a completely unrelated issue like abortion rights has to do with that so that comment just confuses me.
I apologize for the post. I viewed the article as courageous, and I didn't think it begged any questions of "comparative courage," but I nonetheless realize that this is a charged topic for a lot of people. Probably better to focus on the things that unite us as UK fans and not sow conflict. Mods should feel free to remove the post, and my apologies again.
I don't understand why anyone needs to "come out". You never hear anyone come out and announce they are straight. I could be wrong but it always appears to be an agenda thing when this occurs.
Yes. That is exactly my view. Why do people feel the need to make such an issue out of this stuff? Not that I don't know: "Here's an empty spotlight, with guaranteed treatment as a courageous hero by CNN and ESPN. Wanna stand in it?" I completely agree with the idea that people should be allowed to have the life they want, but if they want me to stand up and cheer, too bad.
Last edited by elicat; 04-29-2013 at 01:09 PM.
I'm in agreement with elicat.
Last edited by suncat05; 04-29-2013 at 01:11 PM. Reason: misspelled name
MOLON LABE!
Talk to gay people and ask them, it will make a whole lot of sense.
Not the same in the least. As Stu said, sit down and have a conversation with a gay person. It will make way more sense.
Last edited by ukpumacat; 04-29-2013 at 01:16 PM.
~Puma~
No, actually it won't. I was a graduate student at Yale in the early 90s (thus "Eli"). If it was ever going to make sense, it would have then and there. I assure you I have talked with very many gay people for many, many years. The whole quest for validation by "coming out" has never made sense to me and I suspect talking with one more gay person is unlikely to be the tipping point, though no doubt I will have that opportunity sooner rather than later.
How about just take a logical approach to it:
In life, we announce change. We don't announce status quo (unless there was a distinct possibility of change). UK doesn't need to announce Cal is coming back next year. He is already here. It is assumed he is coming back.
If he were to leave, that would be a change, therefore an announcement.
In the world we live in, "straight" is the status quo. It is considered the normative. It is what people (the vast majority) assume by default (I am not going to spend the time explaining or defending that; there are obvious examples with children, etc).
So, it doesn't need to be announced someone is straight. Its what is already assumed.
Being gay is not assumed. Its a change in assumption (and a lot of other things). Therefore, an announcement. Seems pretty easy to understand to me.
~Puma~
Couldn't he just as easily hold hands with his partner in public?How about just take a logical approach to it:
In life, we announce change. We don't announce status quo (unless there was a distinct possibility of change). UK doesn't need to announce Cal is coming back next year. He is already here. It is assumed he is coming back.
If he were to leave, that would be a change, therefore an announcement.
In the world we live in, "straight" is the status quo. It is considered the normative. It is what people (the vast majority) assume by default (I am not going to spend the time explaining or defending that; there are obvious examples with children, etc).
So, it doesn't need to be announced someone is straight. Its what is already assumed.
Being gay is not assumed. Its a change in assumption (and a lot of other things). Therefore, an announcement. Seems pretty easy to understand to me.
Cool as a rule, but sometimes bad is bad.
I'm not defending or explaining him writing an article in SI. I am explaining why people "come out". 99% of gay people who do, do that to family (as he did), not in a magazine.
And in that case, its very wise to talk with family first (ie "coming out"), before doing anything public. I can assure you that is what almost every gay person, family of a gay person, and counselors would tell you.
Maybe there will be a day years down the road where its not an assumption that you are straight. Maybe there will be a day that you don't have to "come out", and you can take your advice and just "be". Just hold hands with your partner in public, and there is no shock factor or relational damage done with your family.
Today is not that day.
Last edited by ukpumacat; 04-29-2013 at 01:35 PM.
~Puma~
So everytime there is something we can't assume, we should announce it?How about just take a logical approach to it:
In life, we announce change. We don't announce status quo (unless there was a distinct possibility of change). UK doesn't need to announce Cal is coming back next year. He is already here. It is assumed he is coming back.
If he were to leave, that would be a change, therefore an announcement.
In the world we live in, "straight" is the status quo. It is considered the normative. It is what people (the vast majority) assume by default (I am not going to spend the time explaining or defending that; there are obvious examples with children, etc).
So, it doesn't need to be announced someone is straight. Its what is already assumed.
Being gay is not assumed. Its a change in assumption (and a lot of other things). Therefore, an announcement. Seems pretty easy to understand to me.
The reason this is courageous and important is that he can now live his life as who he is and doesn't have to hide it. The reason he had to "come out"is because in the past society and probably a lot of his peers expected him to hide who he was, and now he doesn't. This thread I think illustrates to a T why this is important, to call finally feeling you can live life as who you are as "opportunistic" just shows why people like Jason have to come out. Hopefully someday this won't be necessary, but for now or is necessary as to help other athletes understand they can be gay and live their lives without hiding an important part of themselves.
Well said.
You asked why someone "comes out" if they are gay, but not if they are straight. I answered you in a logical and simple way. I also answered you in a way that is not predicated on someone's viewpoint on the topic (which is nearly impossible to do). Obviously, my answer did not suffice (shocker!), and I doubt I could explain it in any way that would change your mind. You are, of course, completely entitled to your opinion, as am I.
I have worked with and counseled many gay people, and it is very clear to me why they need to come out to family and friends. Very, very clear.
Last edited by ukpumacat; 04-29-2013 at 01:51 PM.
~Puma~
Okay, here's a logical approach: Live your life and quit being so d**n dependent. (That is all.)
Last edited by elicat; 04-29-2013 at 01:59 PM.
Philly, in NO way am I questioning your thoughts on the post. Please understand that. I live in Petaluma, CA, just above San Freaking Francisco. The "gay" factor out here is everywhere. It's a non-issue to me. I see it daily and quite honestly as long as anyone is a productive member of society and leaving me alone then go about your business. I used the pro-life simply as a comparative with all the talk of the Kermit Gosnell trial.
On another note, I had dinner with an UBER LIBERAL lady not long ago. We talked politics, beliefs etc. At the end of the night she said to me, speaking of herself, "I really thought I had an open mind but now I realize I really don't nor do a lot of my friends." Today she wrote to tell me she had coffee with other "uber lefties" (her words) and said, I can't believe how "right of center I really am of all their thoughts."
Last thing, Marina Navratilova "came out" in 1981....Collins is 2nd. He will probably lead the NBA in rebounds next year though.
I don't care what anyone's sexual orientation is. Just act like a civilized human being, that's all I want. If you're gay, good for you, live your life as you see fit and I wish you all the happiness in the world.
MOLON LABE!
Me too. I have had, for many many years, a number of GBLT friends. The frequency of disturbingly true stories that I have been told by so many of them (and seen confirmed with my own eyes on many many occasions) concerning how dreadfully they have been treated, either upon coming out or even prior to that, depending on the person, makes it an easy thing to understand.
I have been saddened to many times by situations told to me that involve being in constant fear for one's life, just for being SUSPECTED of being gay, bi, lesbian, or transgendered. Why would anyone want to live in fear for their life because of a simple human feeling like sexual identity?
Why does anyone deserve to be legally hated for freely and consensually choosing to have sex with who they want? Why has it been necessary for public service announcements to be broadcast to combat the shockingly accepted and always extremely negatively slanted "that's so gay!!!" phrase popular with children across the country?
The hatred of GBLT folks is obvious and all around us. I don't understand why it is not as obvious to others, although my guess is that many prefer to imagine that it is not as bad as they would like to think.
In any event, the fear is real and the idea that homophobia is not a very strong and real problem in our culture has very little, IMO, to do with typical "us vs. them" politics, the type that is so overly and lazily promoted that folks seem to relish buying into it more than questioning the relative logic of complex issues being boiled down to TWO extreme options, and more to do with REAL personal experiences that GBLT folks have had in their past, see everyday in their present, and hope to improve in their future.
I don't have a problem with their "agenda" because I know how difficult it is for them to simply live as equally respected citizens in this country. The homophobic masses have given them no choice but to have a political agenda. What minority has NOT had to develop one?
The majority of time a person comes out it is not for them; it is for the benefit of their family and friends. The family and friends (or teammates) are the ones who make it difficult to "come out" and are also the ones who need the "announcement".
It would only take one time for someone to be a fly on the wall when someone comes out to their family (depending on the situation), and you will very quickly discover why there is a need for it (before going public), and why it is so difficult. I have been there several times for it, and it can be gut-wrenching.
~Puma~
I guess I will go there, but the reason the people are coming out is to make it okay for everyone else to live as who they are. It is a sad state of affairs that in todays society this is happening, but in athletics until recently it was basically Martina Navratilova and that was it. I guess I see it similar to someone in the 60's asking the following:
"Why do they want to drink from our water fountains, their water fountains work just as good."
Now the gay people have it tons and tons better than the black people did during the civil right movement, but to me the fact that not all gays can be who they are and live life as free as everyone else means that people like Jason Collins have to "come out" to be role models for other gay athletes. I most certainly hope that some day no one has to "come out" and it can just be 90% of the time, just as it is for color of skin minorities.
Its FOOTBALL time in the Bluegrass...and some basketball talk!!!!
I wanted to make that point earlier, but wanted to avoid anyone feeling "attacked" on here for their viewpoint. I just think its interesting that Collins writes that article in SI, and some make an assumption that it is for money, promotion, etc., and no one (until now) considers that it is for the sake of other young, gay athletes. Glad you said it.
~Puma~
On a lighter note, as someone on twitter said.....now if we can just get someone from the WNBA to come out as "openly straight!"
Yes. It if you live in a community where a gay teenager has killed himself. You'll get the reasons for as many life affirming role models and accepting community statements as possible.
This is big sports news, but its big
Impact will be on people who might not otherwise survive their adolescence.
You know, I just yawn when I hear this type of stuff. So, someone who is an athlete is gay. What's the big deal? I've worked with people all my life who are gay. The only thing of value is the gossip it creates for those who will exploit it for their personal financial gain. That's all SI is doing. Blogs will be full of it for a week and then it dies. I think this was an attempt to get out in front of the NFL's "Big Announcement", which apparently is imminent.
I frankly think it is a shame that people can't live their lives in private as they see fit. I'm still not sure why our entire society now feels compelled to go public with their sexual preferences. It truly does not matter.
Last edited by MickintheHam; 04-29-2013 at 03:31 PM.
For the record it was Billie Jean Moffitt King who was the first in women's tennis. That was likely in the 70s. But, there have also been several retired male football and basketball players who have come out. There was a former NFL player who right after he retired announced his orientation. I believe it was David Kopay. From my perspective Gays have had models for a long time that they could pattern their lives after. And people who served to say it is ok. It just so happens none was an active player in MLB, the NFL, or NBA. In every other walk of life there have been role models for a long time.
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