The most gut wrenching, and frankly embarrassing image thus far is the [Harry Bellefonte voice on]Tally-bon [[/Harry Bellefonte voice off]mocking the Iwo Jima image. I sure hope this is a central image theme in the next GOP election campaign, along with the images of the Afghanistan refugees falling off plane landing gear.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
Most unfortunate, Doc. But the woke military under Surrender Joe is fair game and, aside from the abandonment of our Afghan allies the worst result of his decisions.
I put this entire debacle on the media and those that voted for Biden. If they didn’t see something like this coming from a guy suffering from dementia then they didn’t want to see it.
Some tidbits some of you guys may not be aware of or might have forgotten:
It was Trump, not Biden that negotiated directly with the Taliban and excluded the Afghan government.
It was Trump, not Biden that arranged for the release of 5,000 Taliban from prison.
It was Trump, not Biden that wanted to invite the Taliban to Camp David on the anniversary of 9-11.
It was Trump, not Biden that refused to brief the incoming administration on the Afghan situation.
It was Trump, not Biden that boasted he didn’t need an exit strategy in Afghanistan.
It was Trump, not Biden that boasted the troop withdrawal he set in motion could not be stopped.
lol.
So does that excuse this debacle? Biden could do nothing to stop it? Nothing to address it now? It's all good, right?
Here's the thing. Saying Trump failed in Afghanistan doesn't mean it's OK that Biden has disasterously failed in Afghanistan.
Also, in the time since Trumps deal, the US had no losses (or maybe 1) to combat deaths in the past year. So it's not looking like that was a horrible deal. Things had actually stabilized at least during that time period.
Had Trump overseen this disaster I would be yelling for his head, and I'm fine to assess blame on Trump as well as Obama and Bush II for the failures of Afghanistan.
But this implementation is completely on Biden, as he absolutely could have ordered more troops to hold the country, reorganized the withdrawal, held Bagram AFB, etc. that was all on him, b/c his team thought the government would hold. They were deeply wrong, and now that's on him. Had Trump made the same call then it would be on him.
Confirmation bias. It's sure a popular thing to have these days.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Really, you want to support this guy?
Originally Posted by Catfan73
Sorry if I caused any cognitive dissonance. I’ll shut up.
Uh no. You didn't. You just can't see past the glasses.
FWIW I disagreed with Trumps approach in Afghanistan in several ways, though I did support having some kind of negotiated settlement or at least stalemate.
None of that changes the way the withdrawal has been handled, and the blame should be on whoever oversaw it. None of Trumps mistakes or Obama's mistakes or BUsh II's mistakes somehow abrogates Biden's responsibility for limiting US troops in such a way that they couldn't defend Bagram, didn't have time to destroy our weapons and facilities, didn't have a clue what was going to happen to the Afghan government, and didn't have any movement ahead of time to remove our citizens and allies.
The Pentagon has said outright that Biden limited how many troops they could have in country for the operation, so they couldn't hold Bagram. It's an extremely well fortified facility that would be ideal for this operation, but is large, and Biden wouldn't OK enough troops to staff it per the Pentagon. Is that on Trump too?
Biden just yesterday gave a horribly flippant answer to a reporter about what to do with Americans remaining in Afghanistan. So bad his staff cut off the microphone. that's being reported by the ABC correspondent, not Fox News. Is Trump responsible for Biden's horrible, horrible response to this unfolding disaster?
As the government fell it was clear what was happening. Is it on Trump that Biden refused to change direction or adjust to the changing conditions at all? that he stuck to a plan that clearly was falling apart within 1-2 days of happening? It took 11 days for Kabul to fall, plenty long enough for any POTUS to see the unfolding collapse, and then do something about it.
Is it now Trump's fault that Biden refused to change course and address the problem, even if the direction was set by Trump? He's had no problem reversing Trump on the border problem, but his hands were tied as Commander in Chief in Afghanistan?
Deflecting on this is just wrong, and frankly discouraging.
Trump had tons of flaws. We just elected a man so bad we have to find ways to still discuss Trump, so what does that say about Biden?
I'm well aware of Trump's flaws. Are you now seeing Bidens? If not then the dissonance is yours.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
The populace agreed with Trump, and Biden to get out of dodge there. They are having a huge issue with the execution though.
What has Biden executed well? Please anyone name one thing?
B/c no sane person would agree to "we're going to leave Afghanistan, but we're going to so in a way that we pull out almost all of our troops first, leaving 15,000 or so Americans and 20-50K Afghan allies to basically catch as catch can, and we're going to leave several million metric tons of materials, equipment and supplies behind as well.
This was done on a shoestring, and done on a timeline the US military could never meet with the troops that were approved.
Any right thinking person would think we would either destroy or remove any equipment that was not being used by the Afghan military, that most all of our citizens and allies who wanted to leave would be long gone before we began scaling back the actual troops, and that it would be a staged withdrawal to make sure the Afghan government was able to maintain some kind of rule.
We should have started by ceding sections of the country over to Afghani control and oversight, and if those fell we would have an obvious answer as to the situation.
This was done completely back asswards. We left all at once basically, hoping the Afghan army would then fight. We didn't leave enough troops to either oversee the withdrawal OR to respond in case the situation went south quickly as it did.
It is the definition of "flatfooted".
Biden is saying we will hunt down these terrorists. How exactly? we don't control Bagram Air Base, so we have no base of operations in the country. None. We didn't do like we did in Korea where we established a govenrment but also kept a presence, or in Japan. No we are pulling out EVERYONE, and closing the embassy. There is no way to then go in and hunt down these terrorists.
And now NO ONE in Afghansitan, or much of anywhere else, is going to help us, b/c we left our Afghan allies, hundreds of thousands of women, and even our NATO allies absolutely hung out to dry.
Hell, we didn't even coordinate this with the British and other nations with troops there, who had no choice but to pull back. Go read British media sources on this debacle. Parlaiment called an emergency session.
People think Trump undermined NATO an our alliances? He didn't leave NATO and allied troops to fend for themselves as terrorists came over the hill.
No sane person, presented with a poll question "do we leave Afghanistan",, would have said "yes" if the rest of that question described the way we are now leaving. Americans want their troops home and to stop being the world's policeman, but they would never agree to this disaster and they would never agree to abandoning Americans and our allies in such a stark and incompetent fashion.
And Biden's answer so far has been to shrug, make snarky remarks and avoid the media like they had a disease that makes Covid look like cooties. the failure of the plan is only exceeded by the failure of our response to that failure.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Pointing fingers at Trump or anyone who wanted to leave Afghanistan is ridiculous, as it creates the absurd assumption that this mess was somehow a given, inevitable if you were going to leave. That has so far been Biden's position.
that is crap. Even if the country was going to inevitably fall, which I think was very true, that only means that you then know you had better plan a whole lot better and have everyone safely out and equipment destroyed. So if you think this was inevitable then it only worsens the case against Biden.
The Brits and other nations should have been gone by this point, so they were not exposed, leaving only their last combat troops as needed to assist. Certainly all our people should have been gone.
No, wanting to leave has nothing to do with this mess, which is mostly about HOW we left.
The only thing Biden and Trump have in common ownership here is that, with the fall of the country, we will see renewed terrorism around the world. But it's not at all clear Trump would have pulled out like this, and absolutely not clear he would have stood by to watch the nation collapse and not changed course. He could have, but it's irrelevant to Biden's failure to act.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
The British prime minister was quoted in their news papers as saying that they would never be put in this position by the Americans ever again. He is pissedAnd now NO ONE in Afghansitan, or much of anywhere else, is going to help us, b/c we left our Afghan allies, hundreds of thousands of women, and even our NATO allies absolutely hung out to dry.
Hell, we didn't even coordinate this with the British and other nations with troops there, who had no choice but to pull back. Go read British media sources on this debacle. Parlaiment called an emergency session.
People think Trump undermined NATO an our alliances? He didn't leave NATO and allied troops to fend for themselves as terrorists came over the hill.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
Our allies are flipping out at how this is being handled too.
The media hasn't covered it, but Biden has done more damage to NATO an our allies, esp. the Brits, of any President in a long time.
People wrung their hands over Trump's words, but nothing comes close to Biden's actions an the damage he has done.
At the very best he's a lame duck in foreign policy, other nations will never trust him, but unfortunately this will damage our credibility for decades to come.
And nothing is better proof of how badly this was handled, and that it isn't on Trump's policies, that the Brits and others were left holding this bag. We had no backup plan, no coordination with our allies, nada.
Cluster F*** is the only way to put this mess. Americans, allies, our NATO allies, Afghan supporters, all just tossed to the wind so Biden's team could tout that he got us out of Afghanistan in time to celebrate it on 9/11. Maybe they can hold the ceremony at Andrews AFB while he reviews the coffins of the dead. Yes that's harsh, but I'm so disgusted by this, as is every veteran I know, I think they would feel the same way.
He should resign. He is mentally incompetent and not capable of being President. Hell his people are telling him who to call on in pressers, cutting off his mic when he answers wrong. He's not POTUS any more than you or I. The people running him however are dumber than him.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I’m not sure I can hold him completely responsible for this because he’s mentally deficient at this point. His handlers are likely calling the shots, but Joe will take the blame. Plausible deniability when he eventually takes the fall.
Susan Rice will blame the whole thing on Trump, or failing that, and it does fail, she will find an obscure movie maker to blame.
Surrender Joe is not following the Trump plan, nor has he been shy about ditching every other policy. It’s beyond credible to blame this botched surrender on Trump.
In the words of Obama, “Don't underestimate Joe's ability to #&*# things up”
Biden didn’t use Trump’s withdrawal plan. He didn’t use any of the withdrawal plans suggested to him by the military, State Department or Intelligence. Biden used his own plan, because he knew better than any of those other people.
Interesting comments from former VP Pence at the end of the article on the disappearance of current VP Harris.
Linkage
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
She must be in rehab because she has definitely disappeared.
If you are referencing Kamala, after boasting about being the last one in the room on decision making for Afghanistan, when things went sideways she allegedly said she wasn’t taking the blame and left DC.
Press and VP are just imploding from within.
I would also say their relationship is not good.
It was Trump that was responsible for 11 deaths in Afganistan last year, it was Biden who was responsible for 13 in one day!
It was Trump that got the troops in Afghanistan down to 2,500 when he left, Obama and his VP Joe Biden lowered it to it at 8,400 when Trump took office. Trump was withdrawing troops at a reasonable rate while making sure our assets (both personnel and ordinance) were protected. It was Biden who flicked the lets screws this up switch as much as we possibly can and left both personnel and equipment in the country.
The facts are Obama was lowering the troop levels. In 8 years he took the number of troops from 50,000 to 8,500. Good move on his part. Trump continued the exit plan on a reasonable timeline. He had a goal date of March 1st, but it was a target and not a set in stone one. Of course Biden ignored that and elected to maintain at that level and then suddenly bug out in a massive exit. Not a reasonable continued decline where you get your people and equipment out first, then the military. Nope, he elected to abandon the most secure site for exit (Bagram) and evacuate out of a central airport in Kabal which is far more difficult to secure. And he did it without making arrangements for the removal of massive amounts of weapons and technology. But to top it off, he manages to GIVE the names of American citizens and Afghani people who aided us to the Taliban under some moronic concept that this stone age terrorist group we have been in battle with for decades will simply let them pass thru the check points designed to coral in people they want to capture.
Last edited by Doc; 08-27-2021 at 03:40 PM.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
You guys are giving Biden too much credit for being in charge of the exit plan. Do we really think Biden put any thought into this? Wouldn’t he rely on his commanding officers as to when and how we are doing in regard to making the deadline? I just don’t understand how the greatest nation in the world with the best military and some real brilliant people can come together and allow this to happen. Sure it falls on Biden but man he doesn’t seem to be sharp enough to blame.
Go Cats!
That’s the full reason this looks like a Biden plan, he is an idiot!
And actually does not care about anyone and demonstrates that with each decision.
Biden ignored the advice.
https://www.wibc.com/blogs/hammer-an...n-afghanistan/
Man we watched a 9/11 doc series and it’s crazy how much of a mess the Afghan/Iraq issues are. Esp the afghan invasion and Guantanamo bay stuff. Our government regardless of what side you choose seems like a complete and utter mess. Very hard for me to trust anything that is being said honestly and I’m guessing most of america feels this way.
Go Cats!
I watched that too (National Geographic channel). Good series. Not a bunch of political documentary....just video and personal stories told by those involved. The raw footage is excellent
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
Very good and eye opening to those of us that were too young to pay close attention 20 years ago.
Go Cats!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks