Already fighting over the money, sad isn't it.
I hate to hear this, he was amazing and one of my favorites.
Parkinson's is a terrible disease. Never was a fan because of what he did but I hate he had to live with this disease. Had a friend in Paducah die from it and have another friend recently diagnosed
Ditto jazydOriginally Posted by jazyd
How very, very sad. I always remember him when I was a 5 or 6 year old kid. Every Saturday Night there was an amatuer boxing show on TV. My dad would always have us watch as there was a guy he worked with whose kid was a fantastic boxer. Of course it was Cassius Clay. I was a fan his entire career.
The night he beat Sonny Liston was Feb 25, my parents anniversary. We took a battery operated radio to a candlelight dinner on the top floor of the Stouffer's in downtown Louisville. My mother insisted. We had outstanding service the entire night as every person on the wait staff came by to serve us. It wasn't always easy being a fan. The name change, the CO status in the draft were extremely radical at the time. his Mom, Odessa, had a tough time with it, too. She was proud to have given him the name of a prominant Kentucky abolitionist.
Parkinson's is an awful way to exit this world. may he go in peace.
Great fighter but turned his back on his country. Not a guy I admire at all.
Fortunately, this apparently is not true based on comments from his daughter.
http://msn.foxsports.com/boxing/stor...li-says-020313
I was really wondering if this would be pointed out.
And when I first started reading this thread is was all this love.
Right there with you Kacat and thanks for pointing out the truth you are spot on as always.
Many die and he ran, not a hero or someone to admire in my mind.
He was true to his faith and that took conviction most of us do not have. He did not denounce that faith once his penalty was paid and lived his life until this day by the same tenets. I respect and admire that conviction.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
The whole of the man, or any man, should not be judged by one difficult decision made and stuck to. Ali was always one of my fave athletes and personalities in sports. As a kid, I really liked that he was a Kentucky guy and just happened to also be... THE Greatest.
Great fighter.
I can give partial forgiveness for his refusal to serve. I disagree with it strongly but at least he stood trial and didn't run hide in Canada or in San Francisco. Civil disobedience requires you take your punishment, and he did at least in part. A poorer man would have probably just gone to jail and not been able to appeal, but a white man refusing would have gotten less than 5 years too.
I cannot overlook his embracing of a racist hate group every bit as despicable as the KKK. At a time when there was a choice between the pro-integration, nonviolent movement of MLK and the violent, black supremacy hatred of Elijah Mohammad and Malcolm X, he chose wrong. Very wrong.
An interesting life though. It came full circle with Elijah Mohammad breaking with him, Ali lamenting having broken with Malcolm X and going from both to Sunni Islam and then supposedly to Sufi Islam, from winning the gold medal with pride to tossing it in the Ohio river to lighting the torch again in the Olympics, from walking away from millions in his stances in the 60s to embracing Don King money making ventures like the Rumble in the Jungle.
If you put a picture in the dictionary next to the word "enigma", it would be his.
Last edited by CitizenBBN; 02-03-2013 at 11:04 PM.
Had it just been refusal to serve he wouldn't have been so controversial. Still would have been, but it was a) his basis for refusal, and b) his embracing of racism prior to refusal that so amplified him to the point where you either loved him or hated him.
His basis for refusal wasn't, as is often said now, that he was against war. He explicitly said he was against wars not declared by Allah. Islamic wars were fine but he refused to serve in "Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."
So it wasn't a stance of non-violence, it was a stance, essentially, of "this isn't my war". As he said he saw this as an imperialist war by "white slaveholders". Now we've gone from being against any war to getting to pick and choose which war you join as a citizen. Doesn't work that way.
Like I said, unlike most everyone else who "objected" he at least followed the law and stood trial. I respect that, but not the basis of his objection.
I can get worked up about his embracing of Nation of Islam, an ideology I find offensive to the very nature of Man as much as that of the KKK or any group that thinks God has given them license to be better than other humans with different skin color. In fact you could take the literature from the NOI and KKK and swap the names of the groups and not tell the difference. Deep racism, and Ali was its most visible proponent for many years.
I can't get too worked up about his refusal to serve b/c he did follow the law and not run and hide.
Mostly I don't care too much about that aspect b/c it's overwhelmed 1000x over by my hatred of Johnson and Kennedy and McNamara and all those who sent 58,000 Americans to die there needlessly. I wouldn't even bother to go take a nasty look at Ali's grave. I'd dig up Johnson and the rest tomorrow and hang what's left.
Citizen being one who served in Vietnam and in the worst time, the TET Offensive, I don't blame anyone for going to Canada or doing what Ali did. It was a simple waste of human life, a war that had no end in victory, a war that could not be won. JFK got us in there and Johnson made it worse. So I agree with your statemeny "Mostly I don't care too much about that aspect b/c it's overwhelmed 1000x over by my hatred of Johnson and Kennedy and McNamara and all those who sent 58,000 Americans to die there needlessly.
I think I have the right to say that, of those 58,000 I have friends.
I blame those who went to Canada b/c of you and so many more who served. They could have done what Ali did. They didn't drag people to Vietnam in irons, you could refuse and be sentenced to jail time. Civil disobedience isn't about avoiding the consequences, it's about making an example of accepting the consequences.
But we basically agree, my hatred for them and similar groups pales to my hatred of those who caused it.
Well we'll just agree to disagree, each to their own. It was simply a waste of human life in the worst way. Going to Canada was a sign of the times, burning draft cards the same, but the treatment we received when we came back was much worse than anyone leaving the country. Most all of us just did what we were told to do, no questions asked, looking back I was a PDSD, I looked for fights with anyone with slant eyes, that is long removed from me now. I look at that war and think what the hell were we doing there, there was not a good reason, none!! It's over for me other than it should have never been; I just don't fault anyone who found a way to not go there. I was not drafted, I joined and for the overall growth of me as a person it was a good thing, I grew as a person and also came to realize what life and death looks like. People make choices and no matter what they are we all walk through the same door when life shuts down, no matter how much money, how important you were, it comes to an end and all the money, the fame, the life style is worth nothing. Life is nothing more than a vapor, a last breath, a journey in a short period of time, an ending that has no escape, it's like a movie and in our later days it is the last scene.
What a beautiful post, CT.
I was not old enough, at the time, to really know what was going on, in terms of the political details, when it came to Ali and only had a vague grasp of the protests, etc. Had I been of age, I would have explored the option of "conscientious objector" and I would have been jailed, especially having no specific religious orientation (although I feel quite strongly that my Agnosticism is every bit as valid as any religious belief system).
These are difficult choices and it was a difficult time. Our nation grew by leaps and bounds as a result and I hope you know that your service is greatly appreciated.
Peace (it's not just a word).
Yeah, no difference in those two things...
I'm no mod, but it seems like maybe this thread would be better over at The Front Porch as it has gone seriously off topic.
~Puma~
Actually there can be a lot of difference between the two. I try to be a religious person but if someone threatens things I love I am no pacifist. I do know people that are true pacifist and there is not enough money in the world that would get them in a ring to fight someone else. So puma there can be a lot of difference in the two.Yeah, no difference in those two things...
I'm no mod, but it seems like maybe this thread would be better over at The Front Porch as it has gone seriously off topic.
Last edited by ukblue; 02-04-2013 at 06:57 PM.
We don't really disagree, certainly not very much. The whole thing was a pointless waste. I also put those who treated returning veterans as they did way ahead of those who dodged the draft. People who avoided going are last on my contempt list for the war. It's a long list.
My family never fully recovered from it. I hope there's a special place in Hell for Johnson and the whiz kids.
As for Ali, it's his racism I can't stomach.
Barber Shop is where it's heading. Going to leave a reference here for a bit so people can find it, but yes it's now a conversation better suited for that board.Yeah, no difference in those two things...
I'm no mod, but it seems like maybe this thread would be better over at The Front Porch as it has gone seriously off topic.
Krank thanks for you kind words, I look at life as everyone has a dollar to spend, it's your dollar, spend it how you want and at the end of the day the truth will be revealed, pretty simple really. No Chuck we are not that far apart, to be clear I don't support those who dodged the draft, I just don't hold it against them. Jane Fonda and people like that IMO should have been jailed for treason, I won't watch any movie or anything she has to do with, she should have been deported at the least, she is not an American. Freedon of speach is one thing, treason is another.
Tells you how much I visit the political board...didn't even know what it was called.
~Puma~
Ummm...I'm confused.Actually there can be a lot of difference between the two. I try to be a religious person but if someone threatens things I love I am no pacifist. I do know people that are true pacifist and there is not enough money in the world that would get them in a ring to fight someone else. So puma there can be a lot of difference in the two.
~Puma~
You're a wise man my friend. Far wiser than I.
I know. You seem to think that Ali's religion and pacifism are related. Strange when you step back and consider that he's a muslim.
Last edited by ukblue; 02-05-2013 at 06:08 PM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks