Irony in some of you.. willing to fire Cal and move on...buttt

[anderwt]

Refuse to Admit Trump is a goon and needs to go... how messed up is that?

[VirginiaCat]

Trump is not a good person. I could care less.

His policies and actions agree with what I believe in.

Enough said.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Wow, an actual admission that stoking insurrection is approved.

While I am appalled at the belief, I applaud the honesty and guts to admit it. So many others just dance around it.

[Catfan73]

Trump is still at it, last night he threatened more violence if he gets impeached again--which the House did today. He's like the neighborhood mobster talking to the shopkeeper...."We don't want no violence, now do we?"

[StuBleedsBlue2]

His words are dog whistles. How do we know? They tell us that they take their cues from him.

He wants this. He loves this. There is nothing more narcissistic than having loyal followers be willing to kill and die for you.

[CitizenBBN]

Trump is still at it, last night he threatened more violence if he gets impeached again--which the House did today. He's like the neighborhood mobster talking to the shopkeeper...."We don't want no violence, now do we?"

He's a putz, but the truth is the Congress missed an opportunity for real unity in this mess.

Had they called for a censure, it may have been close to unanimous, and been a seed that maybe we could have found some common ground going into a new administration.

Impeachment is just a punitive thing at this point, he'll be gone and out of office before the Senate can even vote (believe it or not even a POTUS in his situation gets some due process and defense in a trial), so it only accomplishes yet another venting of people's spleens.

What would really work, and I'll say that had this been Obama in charge I think he may have done it this way, is to call for a censure so we could all agree this has all gone too far, and ask for cooperation going into a new administration.

Of course politically that doesn't play to the hard core base, and that's all that politics has become now on both sides. It would have isolated the most extreme politicians and honestly helped the nation to rid ourselves of some of them on either side, b/c that extremism is what is driving this years long debacle.

Trump at the least deserves censure, and given that he is out of office in 7 days it would both send the right message and give the country some kind of chance to de-escalate the tension level. Impeachment does nothing to protect the nation from Trump (if you believe it is needed) b/c a) it's still iffy he'll be convicted, and even if he is it still b) does nothing to prevent him from using his mouth.

So the goal is political, to force Republicans to have to vote against it so in 2 years the Democrats can use it in ads. That's what this is about.

That's what ALL of this is about now. it's all about political maneuver for staying in or obtaining power. That's what it's always been mostly about, but now it has gone to Third World extremes.

You guys won't want to hear this, but you have your part in this mess too, by pushing the "stolen election" of 2016 with Russian collusion. Pelosi et al were very specific in calling it a "hijacked" election, etc., which didn't cause direct violence but caused this approach where you don't accept the winning candidate as the POTUS. They were lying just as much as Trump was about the scale of election fraud, and using it to undermine a legitimate election. Trump one upped everyone, but the tactic is appalling regardless of scale, and if we can't agree on that then this will only get worse. Using politicians lies to undermine either election is simply wrong and damaging, yet almost everyone seems OK to drink the Kool Aid their side serves while pointing and gasping at the guys across the road doing the same thing.

Then we get a year of #mostlypeacefulprotests, where literally buildings are on fire and people are describing it in positive terms.

This has been a long time building. Trump has gone beyond the pale no doubt, but all of this is unacceptable. It's not OK to encourage siege on a federal courthouse for months on end and call it a "protest", b/c eventually someone picks a bigger target.

this was a rare, extremely rare chance for real unity in this nation. It wouldn't be 100% but we would move past this 50/50 logjam we are in right now on at least this issue of the violence and language and vitriol and lies going too far.

This vote is about politics and the next election, just like everything in Washington. I hold out no hope people will realize they are ALL being played, on both sides, and turned against one another for short term political gain, which is why I basically retired from politics in my life. Here and everywhere. Ironically I did that a day or two before this latest outrage, but the outrages have been so many of late I was able to see this as pointless before it was driven home that yes it's actually pointless.

[ukpumacat]

He's a putz, but the truth is the Congress missed an opportunity for real unity in this mess.

Had they called for a censure, it may have been close to unanimous, and been a seed that maybe we could have found some common ground going into a new administration.

Impeachment is just a punitive thing at this point, he'll be gone and out of office before the Senate can even vote (believe it or not even a POTUS in his situation gets some due process and defense in a trial), so it only accomplishes yet another venting of people's spleens.

What would really work, and I'll say that had this been Obama in charge I think he may have done it this way, is to call for a censure so we could all agree this has all gone too far, and ask for cooperation going into a new administration.

Of course politically that doesn't play to the hard core base, and that's all that politics has become now on both sides. It would have isolated the most extreme politicians and honestly helped the nation to rid ourselves of some of them on either side, b/c that extremism is what is driving this years long debacle.

Trump at the least deserves censure, and given that he is out of office in 7 days it would both send the right message and give the country some kind of chance to de-escalate the tension level. Impeachment does nothing to protect the nation from Trump (if you believe it is needed) b/c a) it's still iffy he'll be convicted, and even if he is it still b) does nothing to prevent him from using his mouth.

So the goal is political, to force Republicans to have to vote against it so in 2 years the Democrats can use it in ads. That's what this is about.

That's what ALL of this is about now. it's all about political maneuver for staying in or obtaining power. That's what it's always been mostly about, but now it has gone to Third World extremes.

You guys won't want to hear this, but you have your part in this mess too, by pushing the "stolen election" of 2016 with Russian collusion. Pelosi et al were very specific in calling it a "hijacked" election, etc., which didn't cause direct violence but caused this approach where you don't accept the winning candidate as the POTUS. They were lying just as much as Trump was about the scale of election fraud, and using it to undermine a legitimate election. Trump one upped everyone, but the tactic is appalling regardless of scale, and if we can't agree on that then this will only get worse. Using politicians lies to undermine either election is simply wrong and damaging, yet almost everyone seems OK to drink the Kool Aid their side serves while pointing and gasping at the guys across the road doing the same thing.

Then we get a year of #mostlypeacefulprotests, where literally buildings are on fire and people are describing it in positive terms.

This has been a long time building. Trump has gone beyond the pale no doubt, but all of this is unacceptable. It's not OK to encourage siege on a federal courthouse for months on end and call it a "protest", b/c eventually someone picks a bigger target.

this was a rare, extremely rare chance for real unity in this nation. It wouldn't be 100% but we would move past this 50/50 logjam we are in right now on at least this issue of the violence and language and vitriol and lies going too far.

This vote is about politics and the next election, just like everything in Washington. I hold out no hope people will realize they are ALL being played, on both sides, and turned against one another for short term political gain, which is why I basically retired from politics in my life. Here and everywhere. Ironically I did that a day or two before this latest outrage, but the outrages have been so many of late I was able to see this as pointless before it was driven home that yes it's actually pointless.

I agree with much of this.

I don't think impeachment or no impeachment would make much of a difference with "unity" frankly at this point. Trump has done a pretty brilliant (politically) job of making himself an "outsider" and making every other politician (even those in office less time than he) part of the "swamp". So censuring him with a unanimous vote would be meaningless to most Trump supporters. That would just be the "swamp being the swamp".

Trump is immune to everything with his followers.

The only person that could make a significant difference in "healing and unity" right now is Trump himself. If he came out publicly and took responsibility for what happened and told his followers, "I lied about the election being stolen. I lost. Joe Biden beat me fair and square and he is the legitimate President."

THAT would do far far more than any other politician doing or not doing anything.

A lot of his followers still wouldn't buy it. It wouldn't unify them. They will say its a computer generated video and not Trump himself. But, it would help more than anything else could.

[ukpumacat]

And not everyone who voted for impeachment (or will in the Senate) did so for political reasons. The 10 Republicans who voted for it certainly didn't. Most of them will likely lose their seat due to it. But they did what they felt was right. It will be the same for those in the Senate who do.
If this split right down party lines as they almost always do....sure. But it didn't and won't. And those that are willing to sacrifice their careers to do something usually points toward what the right thing to do is or not.

It isn't just politicians who do what is best for them btw. The media of course is complicit in all of this as well. CNN and Fox both were obsessed with Trump in 2015 and hung on his every word (because he was nuts). Their ratings shot up because of him. So they just kept it up.
And then they continue to add more and more opinion shows in place of their "news" shows because it gets the better ratings. And those opinions shows are the biggest culprit to the division we see right now. People no longer debate issues.
Everything now is a sound bite and a side show.
And everything becomes about name calling and the other side being the enemy.

This board is literally one of the only places you will actually see real dialogue and real debate. Seriously. Everyone else lives in a vacuum where they are never exposed to other ideas or ways of thinking. We aren't great at it here most of the time but we are world's better than what most people get.

[CitizenBBN]

I agree with much of this.

I don't think impeachment or no impeachment would make much of a difference with "unity" frankly at this point. Trump has done a pretty brilliant (politically) job of making himself an "outsider" and making every other politician (even those in office less time than he) part of the "swamp". So censuring him with a unanimous vote would be meaningless to most Trump supporters. That would just be the "swamp being the swamp".

Trump is immune to everything with his followers.

The only person that could make a significant difference in "healing and unity" right now is Trump himself. If he came out publicly and took responsibility for what happened and told his followers, "I lied about the election being stolen. I lost. Joe Biden beat me fair and square and he is the legitimate President."

THAT would do far far more than any other politician doing or not doing anything.

A lot of his followers still wouldn't buy it. It wouldn't unify them. They will say its a computer generated video and not Trump himself. But, it would help more than anything else could.

Hey, if Pelosi would do the same thing re Russian collusion that would help too. Sure if Trump came out and did that it would be good.

BUT, since we know no politician is going to do that, and that most certainly Trump won't, this would have been a good start.

I think we first have to get rid of this "followers" thing. yes he has a hard core base that believe in Trump, but that's not the full 72 million that voted for him and you know it's not.

The vast majority of those 72 million are good, decent people who may disagree with the other half of the country on a lot of things, but they are not brainwashed or just believing this way b/c Trump lied to them, etc.

They believed in these things before Trump got his first toupe, and Trump is simply the only choice for them to support to try to see the country go in that direction.

The Unity has to come from both sides stopping this two dimensional propagandistic portrayal. Not all liberals are Antifa members, and not all conservatives are Trump "deplorables".

So the unity would have come from the Congress being able to all agree this has gone too far, and it has, on both sides. The Russia stuff was absurd, the first impeachment also ridiculous, and so is Trump's behavior in the election. Americans are sick of it, and a chance to actually agree on ANYTHING at this point would be good and healthy.

In fact, if you wanted REAL unity, you'd tied the censure to a condemnation of all violence being used in the guise of protest, and both party's leaders stand up and say "enough is enough, we are going to prosecute ANYONE from any political bent to the fullest extent of the law if they turn from free expression to violent intimidation."

Everyone should agree with that, but of course it will quickly devolve into "well no what our side is doing is not that bad, but what you're doing is unconstitutional/seditious/racist/immoral/etc.".

Which is why I'm done discussing it with people. Even on this board, full of totally normal average Americans, we see way too much of that tribalism and nonsense.

Like I've said here for 4 years, Trump is an asshat. There's not really any doubt about that even among most people who voted for him, any more than most who voted for Bill Clinton surely knew he was a creep or that Nancy Pelosi is a real bitch.

But if we can't back away from that and see past the propaganda they all spew then what's the point? Trump has totally ginned up this "stolen election" in exactly the same way Russian collusion was ginned up, and if both sides can't step back to see how these are all just two sides of the same coin then how can we get anywhere?

The Russian story was completely made up to de-legitimize Trump and foment anger in the voting base for the next election. Trump totally ginned up this widespread fraud to foment anger in his base presumably to get enough political pressure to either get Congress to overturn the election or to make sure he kept a stranglehold on the party for future elections or both.

And both had the benefit of all good lies: just enough truth. Sure the Russians used bots etc. to try to influence the election, and so did the Chinese on the other side, and the Koreans, and in fact as we've seen just about every country in the world is putting people on payroll in Washington to influence our policies. Likewise I have no doubt that bureaucracies overseen by politicians and run by a parttime equivalent of the DMV has some fraud, but I don't know how much. But there's enough to point to some and in fact some has been found in this past election.

Just not enough to prove Trump really won, just like there wasn't enough Russian facebook money to mean that Hillary really would have won.

Hillary lost b/c she's a terrible candidate. Trump lost b/c he's a terrible candidate. That's it. Done.

But if we can't see that Hillary and Pelosi and the rest using Russia is just as destructive to our nation as Trump and Guiliani claiming widespread fraud then there is really no common ground left, b/c frankly you can't get two better examples of the pot and the kettle calling each other black.

So I'm done. I have other things to do in the years I have remaining, and since no one is interested in listening much right now I'll follow the Serenity Prayer and focus on the things in this world I can change. I'll hope that people will step back and find some objectivity so they can see the lies of all politicians and finally realize we The People have a lot more in common with each other than we do with the ruling elites who pit us against each other, but I wont' hold my breath.

BTW, it's a tried and true strategy to rule people. Keep them all focused on each other being the enemy so they don't unite and have a real revolution.

[CitizenBBN]

And not everyone who voted for impeachment (or will in the Senate) did so for political reasons. The 10 Republicans who voted for it certainly didn't. Most of them will likely lose their seat due to it. But they did what they felt was right. It will be the same for those in the Senate who do.
If this split right down party lines as they almost always do....sure. But it didn't and won't. And those that are willing to sacrifice their careers to do something usually points toward what the right thing to do is or not.

It isn't just politicians who do what is best for them btw. The media of course is complicit in all of this as well. CNN and Fox both were obsessed with Trump in 2015 and hung on his every word (because he was nuts). Their ratings shot up because of him. So they just kept it up.
And then they continue to add more and more opinion shows in place of their "news" shows because it gets the better ratings. And those opinions shows are the biggest culprit to the division we see right now. People no longer debate issues.
Everything now is a sound bite and a side show.
And everything becomes about name calling and the other side being the enemy.

This board is literally one of the only places you will actually see real dialogue and real debate. Seriously. Everyone else lives in a vacuum where they are never exposed to other ideas or ways of thinking. We aren't great at it here most of the time but we are world's better than what most people get.

It's a false premise, b/c it forced a choice between murder and walking free when maybe manslaughter was the right charge. What they did is maybe more right than the other, but the most "right" option may be in between, the one that isn't almost completely split on party lines.

But basically I can't disagree, though I do think social media is replacing those shows. Most Americans still really don't watch the news like that, or only some. Print is surely dead, but things like twitter are absurdly simplified, even more than talk shows. it's the ultimate sound bite.

As for this board I agree. It's honestly not at all what I wanted for this forum. I lobbied to keep it when we moved the last time hoping we could discuss things at a more ideological level and not get mired in the day to day stupidity of actual politicians, but that hasn't worked out.

largely b/c of the entire Trump phenomenon, in which he acts bad so others feel justified in acting as bad or worse, so he then ups the anty and goes even farther. he's the ultimate troll, and he's done it extremely well. We've had news media say outright they don't have to follow the principles of journalism and their excuse (and it is an excuse) is that Trump is so bad. If he's so bad then in following the rules of journalism it would be easily shown, so there's no special reason to do so other than sheer hate of the fact that lots of Americans may not like him but they agree with many things he has to say.

I came over just to poke around and make sure things weren't completely Gawd-Awful here. I'll try to do that some so we can keep the forum, but as for wrapping myself up in these issues I'm going to pause with hopes of completely quitting. Like I said I think the Great Experiment cannot be saved at this point. I see ways to do it, but none that will happen. So I'll stop spitting in the wind.

[ukpumacat]

Brings up a good and valid question:

How many of Trump's voters do you think are more loyal to him than the party?

And "by the party" I more mean the future of those conservative causes which like or not is in the hands of the party.

A better way to ask it would be this. If every single Republican politician disavowed Trump right now...voted for impeachment. Called him a liar. Whatever.

What % of Trump's voters do you think would stay loyal to Trump in the sense of never voting for one of those politicians again?

I think that number is in the 20% range.

[Catfan73]

Impeaching him again obviously provides some political benefit—such as keeping him from holding federal office again—but he left the House with little choice. The timetable matters less than sending a message that this type of behavior from the executive branch cannot be tolerated.

[ukpumacat]

Fwiw, this is what I think would unite the country more than anything else:

- Trump gives a scripted speech where he tells his followers to stand down, etc (That just happened)
- Trump does not reverse course in 24 hours like he always does after said scripted speech (not having twitter helps)
- The Senate votes to convict Trump and adds the measure not allowing him to run again
- Trump gives another scripted speech saying Biden did not steal the election and is the legitimate President
- Biden pardons Trump

[CitizenBBN]

Impeaching him again obviously provides some political benefit—such as keeping him from holding federal office again—but he left the House with little choice. The timetable matters less than sending a message that this type of behavior from the executive branch cannot be tolerated.

This doesn't send that message, b/c it's a partisan vote that will be spun by both sides.

Like I said, this is vendetta, spleen venting, "sending a message". All the same thing.

B/c the real message to be send could be done with censure and condemnation of ALL of this violence, and then prosecuting a few hundred people to the fullest extent of the law.

Part of why this has gotten so out of hand is that it's been all but legal to riot for a year. Arrest and prosecute the people who committed crimes and you'd be surprised how much of it will stop.

Censure is exactly what you described, and getting that with broad bi-partisan support would send a stronger message than yet another partisan vote.

And your assumption that he wouldn't be able to hold office is only if the Senate convicts. It's not even really clear legally on a couple of fronts b/c he probably won't be in office when he's convicted if he is convicted, and if he is it's not clear he got anything like due process.

Censure could be done while he's still in office, and would show a united front against this kind of behavior. Most important it would do the most good for the nation in the long run by both sending your message and by doing it in a way in which we can all agree.

People have forgotten the entire concept of compromise. Now it's might makes right, it's just political might of having the slimmest of majorities, and then trying to impose will on the other side by any means necessary.

If you want to really stop Trump and all the future Trumps of this nation and the world, the way to do it is to respect the process that got us here, which is to try to have understanding and compromise and find common ground together.

Like I said, even most here aren't interested in that, they want punishment and wins. The right moral and political move is to reach out to the 72 million people who voted for Trump and say "can we agree on this being wrong and find a way to shake hands and stand together?" Censure would get very close to that.

And FWIW that was the right course with Bill Clinton as well. his behavior was unbecoming of a POTUS, and was wrong, but didn't rise to impeachment.

Now, had Trump won, and was going to be in for 4 years, that's a much different discussion. but Impeachment is primarily to remove someone from office so they cannot misuse their office. Trump will do that in 7 days regardless, so most of what impeachment gets you is moot, and you end up getting it largely along party lines which does nothing to bring us together.


Biden has called for unity. Hate to tell people, but unity requires reaching out, burying hatchets, trying to have understanding and, if not agreement, at least respect. It's not "let's be united by all agreeing with me."

[CitizenBBN]

Fwiw, this is what I think would unite the country more than anything else:

- Trump gives a scripted speech where he tells his followers to stand down, etc (That just happened)
- Trump does not reverse course in 24 hours like he always does after said scripted speech (not having twitter helps)
- The Senate votes to convict Trump and adds the measure not allowing him to run again
- Trump gives another scripted speech saying Biden did not steal the election and is the legitimate President
- Biden pardons Trump

Yep. Unity equals "do what I want and get on my side and then we'll be united." Just like I said.

You want what I think Merriam Webster would call "capitulation" with a side of "genuflecting".

There's nothing in there about Antifa or the year of violence we've seen leading up to this, or anything that address how those people who do follow Trump feel disenfranchised and marginalized. No, you just want them to be told to "stand down".

And this is why I'm done. B/c even you are just sitting in your echo chamber. Those people in that rally are just as angry and just as hurt as the people in Portland and Chicago. The Proud Boys are just as big a problem as Antifa.

There's nothing in your proposal that tries to find common ground or understanding, or unity. You aren't giving these people any more respect than anyone else. They aren't just mindless Trump stooges, they rallied to him b/c he speaks to their underlying issues.

You only want to unite on your terms. What you want is for those people to just change their minds or at least get to the back of the bus and not cause trouble. "Stand down" isn't the same as "what can we do to address your needs?"

And in truth, there won't be unity, b/c those on the left won't agree with any of their needs or goals, and vise versa.

But we could maybe have agreed on us fighting our fights without violence. Thus my proposal.

It's funny to me that when BLM riots it's all about trying to understand what they are so angry about, but when those people riot it's all about just getting them arrested and to not do that.

"Unity". Funny word. Doesn't really prescribe HOW we are to be united. Could be by force or coercion I guess. Certainly wont' be from understanding and respect.

[Darryl]

Chuck, I noticed Puma Did not mention Pelosi, Schumer and all the Democrats apologizing for all the lies they spread for four years.
How about Comey and the CIA cronies trying to take down a legally elected president
Rather convenient

Darryl

[Catonahottinroof]

It’s become senseless to discuss some things here because of that. Both sides are guilty too.

Chuck, I noticed Puma Did not mention Pelosi, Schumer and all the Democrats apologizing for all the lies they spread for four years.
How about Comey and the CIA cronies trying to take down a legally elected president
Rather convenient

Darryl

[ukpumacat]

Yep. Unity equals "do what I want and get on my side and then we'll be united." Just like I said.

You want what I think Merriam Webster would call "capitulation" with a side of "genuflecting".

There's nothing in there about Antifa or the year of violence we've seen leading up to this, or anything that address how those people who do follow Trump feel disenfranchised and marginalized. No, you just want them to be told to "stand down".

And this is why I'm done. B/c even you are just sitting in your echo chamber. Those people in that rally are just as angry and just as hurt as the people in Portland and Chicago. The Proud Boys are just as big a problem as Antifa.

There's nothing in your proposal that tries to find common ground or understanding, or unity. You aren't giving these people any more respect than anyone else. They aren't just mindless Trump stooges, they rallied to him b/c he speaks to their underlying issues.

You only want to unite on your terms. What you want is for those people to just change their minds or at least get to the back of the bus and not cause trouble. "Stand down" isn't the same as "what can we do to address your needs?"

And in truth, there won't be unity, b/c those on the left won't agree with any of their needs or goals, and vise versa.

But we could maybe have agreed on us fighting our fights without violence. Thus my proposal.

It's funny to me that when BLM riots it's all about trying to understand what they are so angry about, but when those people riot it's all about just getting them arrested and to not do that.

"Unity". Funny word. Doesn't really prescribe HOW we are to be united. Could be by force or coercion I guess. Certainly wont' be from understanding and respect.

Good lord.
First, I wasn't offering a suggestion. As in, that isn't what I would do. This wasn't my "proposal". I would not suggest Biden pardoning Trump. If he has committed a crime he should be held accountable for it.

Second, I was offering an opinion only on the impeachment. Not anything else. As in, what I actually think would work to somewhat move past this awful time in our nation.

I wasn't giving a grand opinion on how to heal or unite our country in general. Just how to get the two sides to move forward on this. Trump gets impeached and convicted. Biden impeaches. That would do it.

Of course I didn't bring up Russia or protests or riots or Supreme Court Justices or impeaching Clinton or crooked politicians or a million other things. This thread is about Trump and impeachment. My comments were on that.

My point was that something I think Trump would actually agree to and that Dem leaders would agree to that might actually make a difference in unity is what I said above.

Meaning, Trump dials down the rhetoric about stealing the election (which is what led to the Capitol insurgence anyways). And he agreed to them convicting him if Biden would pardon him.

I actually think Trump would agree to that. In fact, I am nearly positive he would. And Biden would come off looking like a uniter so he likely would to.

Would it actually "unite the country"?....Of course not. Nothing is going to do that. Nothing. My point was about impeachment. I didn't know we needed to bring up every single lie every politician has said in the past 4 years. That would take more than a thread.

[ukpumacat]

It’s become senseless to discuss some things here because of that. Both sides are guilty too.

Its senseless because It doesn't matter what happens and how many times you say something someone will just continue to post the same talking points (and yes, on both sides).
As in, I have posted about a dozen times how dumb I thought the first Russian impeachment was. To Chuck nonetheless. He point blank asked me and I answered. I thought it was stupid.
Did it matter? No, of course not.
It will just get posted and asked again and again.

I could care less if Donald Trump apologizes. I also could care less if Pelosi or Schumer do. But that isn't what this thread is about. Or wasn't until it was hijacked.
Every single discussion about Trump or the attack of our Capitol turns into a discussion about Russia or rioting.
That is what is convenient. Which, don't get me wrong....I get it. It sucks when the guy you voted for incites an attack on the Capitol. One can't really defend that so the only option is to try and change the subject.

[CitizenBBN]

Good lord.
First, I wasn't offering a suggestion. As in, that isn't what I would do. This wasn't my "proposal". I would not suggest Biden pardoning Trump. If he has committed a crime he should be held accountable for it.

Second, I was offering an opinion only on the impeachment. Not anything else. As in, what I actually think would work to somewhat move past this awful time in our nation.

I wasn't giving a grand opinion on how to heal or unite our country in general. Just how to get the two sides to move forward on this. Trump gets impeached and convicted. Biden impeaches. That would do it.

Of course I didn't bring up Russia or protests or riots or Supreme Court Justices or impeaching Clinton or crooked politicians or a million other things. This thread is about Trump and impeachment. My comments were on that.

My point was that something I think Trump would actually agree to and that Dem leaders would agree to that might actually make a difference in unity is what I said above.

Meaning, Trump dials down the rhetoric about stealing the election (which is what led to the Capitol insurgence anyways). And he agreed to them convicting him if Biden would pardon him.

I actually think Trump would agree to that. In fact, I am nearly positive he would. And Biden would come off looking like a uniter so he likely would to.

Would it actually "unite the country"?....Of course not. Nothing is going to do that. Nothing. My point was about impeachment. I didn't know we needed to bring up every single lie every politician has said in the past 4 years. That would take more than a thread.

Puma,

First I apologize for my tone. To be clear, you are about the most reasoned poster on these issues on this board, and I respect and appreciate the thoughtfulness of your positions.

I didn't mean to characterize it as your overarching way to fix America, but I do think my point is still valid that what you, as a liberal, think would heal this impeachment part of it is basically for the other side that disagrees with you to capitulate completely. Then, upon doing that, the leader of your side, Biden, would show some benevolence.

That's not a completely fair characterization, and I know you to be a reasonable man who isn't "drinking the Kool Aid" as it were, but do you see my point in this?

To be clear, that gets YOU past impeachment, but it won't get "Trumps followers" past it. It may get them to 'stand down', and if he says he lied about the whole thing they will be disillusioned, but that is NOT unity.

That is simply demoralizing your opposition until they, as I said, capitulate.

To me its like saying the solution to the violence and unrest of the 60s and Civil Rights movement would be for MLK to just give a speech saying he's wrong about equality and black folks need to go back to sitting in the back of the bus.

Obviously MLKs cause was righteous and Trumps is at best purely political, so I'm not making any moral equivalence, but I am making an equivalence in terms of the impact it would have on the group in question. Black people didn't decide they needed to be treated equally b/c MLK just told them to one day, and thus you get rid of MLK (as someone eventually and tragically did) and the movement goes away. Likewise Trump could disavow everything he's said for 4 years and it changes not a THING in how his most ardent followers feel, thus it will not create any unity.

It creates calm perhaps, for a time until someone else can rally those feelings into action, but not unity.

[CitizenBBN]

Its senseless because It doesn't matter what happens and how many times you say something someone will just continue to post the same talking points (and yes, on both sides).
As in, I have posted about a dozen times how dumb I thought the first Russian impeachment was. To Chuck nonetheless. He point blank asked me and I answered. I thought it was stupid.
Did it matter? No, of course not.
It will just get posted and asked again and again.

I could care less if Donald Trump apologizes. I also could care less if Pelosi or Schumer do. But that isn't what this thread is about. Or wasn't until it was hijacked.
Every single discussion about Trump or the attack of our Capitol turns into a discussion about Russia or rioting.
That is what is convenient. Which, don't get me wrong....I get it. It sucks when the guy you voted for incites an attack on the Capitol. One can't really defend that so the only option is to try and change the subject.

I know you thought it was stupid. You're pretty much the only liberal on this board who has thought so.

But the point is not that it was "stupid". The point is that it undermined democracy in the same way Trump has done so, and you have been REALLY not OK with that. Now, Trump took it much further with much more intensity, but both approaches fundamentally told their "side" that they were really supposed to be in power and the other side cheated and stole it from them.

That was a very dangerous precedent 4 years ago and now that tree is bearing some very ugly fruit. Trump would have likely done this anyway, but there's a lot of truth in the adage that if you keep taking an eye for an eye pretty soon the whole world is blind.

When those who are outraged over these events show even SOME of the same outrage for the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who lost their jobs and businesses and stores this year while the media had the gall to call the riots "protests" and "mostly peaceful" etc., then I'll feel like there's a chance we can make progress and find common ground.

That isn't hijacking or changing the subject, it's showing that we've gotten past partisanship to look at the basic problem that the nation is being so strained that we are resorting to increasing levels of violence. These kinds of events are coming again whether Trump is around or not so long as we continue with this "we won, elections have consequences, now let's ram our beliefs down the other side's throat" mentality.

But it's not to "hijack" a thread. That's a base response IMO, b/c I saw you on another thread do exactly the same thing and didn't respond b/c I'm trying to not get too involved in this stuff. If I get a minute I'll go dig it up b/c I found it striking given that you often use this approach when someone compares or provides context.

The thread evolved. It happens all the time. We ended up talking about unity, or I did, and my point is that unity requires us to have some mutual understanding.

It's a good tactic to only focus on "the issue at hand" without context or perspective bc it lets you define the parameters, but it's a ploy, not really staying on topic. What it leads to is a vacuum where for 4 years people have tried to paint Trump in the worst possible terms where, sadly for our nation, he's out in front on some real offenses but not by very much.

And I don't defend Trumps actions when they have no defense, and this one has no defense. Like I said I think censure is the right response given the circumstances, but clearly it deserves a response.

But I get to be bemused at the fact that there is so much hypocrisy in all of this, and to point that out I must contrast this to other events, and to discuss where to go with it I must discuss why it happened. That isn't changing the subject at all.

[CitizenBBN]

It’s become senseless to discuss some things here because of that. Both sides are guilty too.

Not really just here, but anywhere.

The only approach that BOTH sides will hear is one that fairly points out the wrongs on all sides. the last 4 years has been a travesty of leadership on all sides.

Trump was the subject of a real collusion that did real damage to our system, for all but the last two weeks more damage than Trump had done.

Trump responded and upped the bet and now has done even more damage.

But the response isn't to step back and say "wait, we need to all step back from the ledge". No the response is to be punitive. Wasn't a lot of call for punitive from those same people when it was Antifa marching around demanding the overthrow of the government or the killing of police, and now those who did call for it all year need to call for it again, b/c it's the same situation albeit with a lot more gall.

That's why I'm past trying. I've tried on here for 4 years to find a way to get some bigger picture perspective on what's going on in our nation and the real threats we face.

Trump is ephemeral. He will be gone, and others will take his place as well as Pelosi's, McConnell's, etc. They aren't the issue. The issues are much bigger and the only way to address them is to stop this tit for tat.

It reminds me of feuds between nations or cultures that go back centuries. As a good Star Trek Next Gen episode points out the truth: at some point the sides forget why they even started fighting and it becomes so personal they simply cannot stop hating each other.

Pelosi and Schumer gladly promoted the idea of a stolen election to help themselves, and Trump gladly did the same, and then took it to all new lows. But had this been reversed and it was say AOC in a race and lost, would anyone think she would be above at least telling people to go protest the outcome? Maybe she doesn't go as far as Trump, but in her case maybe she does. They're all doing it, it's just a matter of degrees.

In the end we're having a debate between the gang leader who killed someone and the serial killer who killed even more. They're all guilty and they all belong in prison, we're just debating which wing.

[ukpumacat]

Puma,

First I apologize for my tone. To be clear, you are about the most reasoned poster on these issues on this board, and I respect and appreciate the thoughtfulness of your positions.

I didn't mean to characterize it as your overarching way to fix America, but I do think my point is still valid that what you, as a liberal, think would heal this impeachment part of it is basically for the other side that disagrees with you to capitulate completely. Then, upon doing that, the leader of your side, Biden, would show some benevolence.

That's not a completely fair characterization, and I know you to be a reasonable man who isn't "drinking the Kool Aid" as it were, but do you see my point in this?

To be clear, that gets YOU past impeachment, but it won't get "Trumps followers" past it. It may get them to 'stand down', and if he says he lied about the whole thing they will be disillusioned, but that is NOT unity.

That is simply demoralizing your opposition until they, as I said, capitulate.

To me its like saying the solution to the violence and unrest of the 60s and Civil Rights movement would be for MLK to just give a speech saying he's wrong about equality and black folks need to go back to sitting in the back of the bus.

Obviously MLKs cause was righteous and Trumps is at best purely political, so I'm not making any moral equivalence, but I am making an equivalence in terms of the impact it would have on the group in question. Black people didn't decide they needed to be treated equally b/c MLK just told them to one day, and thus you get rid of MLK (as someone eventually and tragically did) and the movement goes away. Likewise Trump could disavow everything he's said for 4 years and it changes not a THING in how his most ardent followers feel, thus it will not create any unity.

It creates calm perhaps, for a time until someone else can rally those feelings into action, but not unity.

I feel you. We agree....nothing is going to heal things right now. Time hopefully will help.

[ukpumacat]

In the end we're having a debate between the gang leader who killed someone and the serial killer who killed even more. They're all guilty and they all belong in prison, we're just debating which wing.

This is terribly well said my friend.

[Catonahottinroof]

Much longer winded than what I would have said, but those are pretty much my feelings on the issue....

Not really just here, but anywhere.

The only approach that BOTH sides will hear is one that fairly points out the wrongs on all sides. the last 4 years has been a travesty of leadership on all sides.

Trump was the subject of a real collusion that did real damage to our system, for all but the last two weeks more damage than Trump had done.

Trump responded and upped the bet and now has done even more damage.

But the response isn't to step back and say "wait, we need to all step back from the ledge". No the response is to be punitive. Wasn't a lot of call for punitive from those same people when it was Antifa marching around demanding the overthrow of the government or the killing of police, and now those who did call for it all year need to call for it again, b/c it's the same situation albeit with a lot more gall.

That's why I'm past trying. I've tried on here for 4 years to find a way to get some bigger picture perspective on what's going on in our nation and the real threats we face.

Trump is ephemeral. He will be gone, and others will take his place as well as Pelosi's, McConnell's, etc. They aren't the issue. The issues are much bigger and the only way to address them is to stop this tit for tat.

It reminds me of feuds between nations or cultures that go back centuries. As a good Star Trek Next Gen episode points out the truth: at some point the sides forget why they even started fighting and it becomes so personal they simply cannot stop hating each other.

Pelosi and Schumer gladly promoted the idea of a stolen election to help themselves, and Trump gladly did the same, and then took it to all new lows. But had this been reversed and it was say AOC in a race and lost, would anyone think she would be above at least telling people to go protest the outcome? Maybe she doesn't go as far as Trump, but in her case maybe she does. They're all doing it, it's just a matter of degrees.

In the end we're having a debate between the gang leader who killed someone and the serial killer who killed even more. They're all guilty and they all belong in prison, we're just debating which wing.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Brings up a good and valid question:

How many of Trump's voters do you think are more loyal to him than the party?

And "by the party" I more mean the future of those conservative causes which like or not is in the hands of the party.

Life long democrat and Trump voter. And I just do not know how to answer your question. I also voted for Obama the first time. But the dems are just too far left for me. I've never cared for the republican party because IMO they have never had their crap together. I always thought Trump was a one term guy for whatever reason. And I am really curious to see where the republicans land and where I fit in next time.

[VirginiaCat]

Wow, an actual admission that stoking insurrection is approved.

While I am appalled at the belief, I applaud the honesty and guts to admit it. So many others just dance around it.

You can be such a blowhard. go listen to his speech. quit following the lib talking points. you are better than that.

[VirginiaCat]

And not everyone who voted for impeachment (or will in the Senate) did so for political reasons. The 10 Republicans who voted for it certainly didn't. Most of them will likely lose their seat due to it. But they did what they felt was right. It will be the same for those in the Senate who do.
If this split right down party lines as they almost always do....sure. But it didn't and won't. And those that are willing to sacrifice their careers to do something usually points toward what the right thing to do is or not.

It isn't just politicians who do what is best for them btw. The media of course is complicit in all of this as well. CNN and Fox both were obsessed with Trump in 2015 and hung on his every word (because he was nuts). Their ratings shot up because of him. So they just kept it up.
And then they continue to add more and more opinion shows in place of their "news" shows because it gets the better ratings. And those opinions shows are the biggest culprit to the division we see right now. People no longer debate issues.
Everything now is a sound bite and a side show.
And everything becomes about name calling and the other side being the enemy.

This board is literally one of the only places you will actually see real dialogue and real debate. Seriously. Everyone else lives in a vacuum where they are never exposed to other ideas or ways of thinking. We aren't great at it here most of the time but we are world's better than what most people get.

Just posted this on the Repbulican Civil War thread. Axios poll show 91% of GOP agree with Trump Challenge and do not blame him. Those GOP on the other side are dead people walking for reelection.

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/pol...14/id/1005578/

[VirginiaCat]

My opinion, i will start with that...

I think AT LEAST 50% of the 74 million votes Trump Got are Trump GOP, not traditional GOP. Many are still registered Dem or not either. Trump, whether you like him or not, has been heard by a demographic that has felt left out since Regean left office. The Traditional Democrat voter that is not part of an ist or ism special interest. The Democrats just left that demographic behind and the Tradtiional GOP was so busy focusing on a Global Marketplace and Supply Chain they never served them

That is a simple fact.

Where will they go... I think nowhere which is what will blow up the GOP. That demographic has been mobilized. They will vote in primaries..and if their candidate wins, they will show up in November.

The Future GOP is much more of a populist organization than a globalist organization, certainly at the local and state level. The question for me is , where do the Traditional GOP members go that cannot get onboard with the not global interest focus...

[ukpumacat]

Just posted this on the Repbulican Civil War thread. Axios poll show 91% of GOP agree with Trump Challenge and do not blame him. Those GOP on the other side are dead people walking for reelection.

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/pol...14/id/1005578/

Actually it doesn't say that. I just posted a long explanation why on the other thread.

But, great find on the poll as it answers my exact question. Right now, 36% of Republicans identify as a "Trump supporter" whereas 56% identify as "Traditional GOP".

Which tells me, the party is divided....but Mitch McConnell is more the leader than Trump is after the Capitol debacle.