OMG how many times do we have to say that all violence is wrong? I posted it many many times this summer.Originally Posted by bigsky
And for clarity, are you referring to the woman as the "unarmed gay four tour veteran"?
She is not gay. She was married (to a husband). And she was with many other armed men with members of Congress just on the other side of the door.
~Puma~
How did I prove your point?
I completely agree with Puma, with small difference, and that is I have a problem with people equivocating what happened in the summer to what happened this week and judge them, not equivalently as the people that stormed the Capitol, but enough to think that there is a problem in their thinking that is disturbing to me.
Which I have mentioned multiple times, so if you think I proved your point about villifying 74 million people, you are wrong about that too.
I sometimes work with two avid Trump supporters and both were shocked and appalled. And they blamed Trump. Now, I might give you a few million who support the overthrow of our democratic election and still believe the disproven conspiracy theories. The rest just disapprove of the results. Everything changed yesterday.
The vote in the senate against any challenge is about where things generally stand percentage wise. And it’s shrinking. But a few million more or less who are today disillusioned and find themselves probably misaligned politically is bad enough. As an American I feel sorry for most...I fear the rest.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
And just want to be clear for the millionth time, most of this thread isn't about the majority of Trump supporters. Its not about anyone on this board. It isn't about most of the people who were in DC that day to "protest" or hear the President speak. It isn't about those that simply believe in small government and lower taxes.
Its about those that showed up to the Capitol with the intention of kidnapping and/or executing the Vice President of the United States and top members of Congress to stop the certification of the electoral votes in order to overthrow an election and the government. That actually happened.
Which is INSANE. And how close they came to actually pulling it off.
~Puma~
Anytime you marginalize half your population that is something to be feared.
Ok.
This might have been posted before but the man who was arrested with the 11 Molotov cocktails was also found with an assault rifle, ammunition and cans of gasoline.
FBI is also concerned because many documents were stolen from offices and they are concerned of some of the national security issues related to some of the documents.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...ls-feds-2021-1
~Puma~
OK, how is this comment not meant to be interpreted as half of the population can justify the actions of 2 days ago due to marginalization?
It seems to me that you are goading us with your comments into equivocating all Trump supporters. I'm not falling for that crap.
We can see a difference between people that voted for Trump only because of a choice of two candidates, or believes in lower taxes or other typical conservative issues and those people that committed these treasonous acts. There is a path between those two end points and at least from my perspective, there are a lot of people moving closer to the latter, much like the woman that was killed, than you and others want to admit.
And ingredients for napalm...
Well you are from there so you could easily have better info than I. I read a story about her girlfriend. There was a dispute. It’s in her story. Maybe they used “girlfriend” and “ joint property dispute” casually? She had kids too. Married people with kids could never be gay, I guess?
Anyway, she got shot and killed. Had that happened last summer night in Portland to a woman tossing a firebomb into the federal building the left would have been outraged and rioted all over the country. I am not seeing riots all over the country. No outraged Trump Deplorables burned down their block in Kansas or Montana.
The job is of the left and right radicals is done. We are more divided than ever, center to right more marginalized. And I retired from two decades of governing because the left will never give up until this country is hammered into bloody paste and every bit of american juice sucked dry.
And she is still shot dead by persons unknown. Still missing the “It’s just property” post. And nope a whitened sepulchre of american govt bones is not as valuable to me as the legal immigrant’s grocery store burned to the ground this summer. Symbol is not greater than the capitalism and investment and initiative it was meant to represent. That was looted by the Pelosis long ago.
You must be referring to this report? https://nypost.com/2021/01/08/ashli-...d-husbands-ex/
She was in an argument with her husband's ex girlfriend. Again, she isn't gay. She is married. I listened to an interview with her husband where he said he begged her not to go because he knew something bad would happen.
Also, she was not shot by persons unknown. She was shot by an identified Capitol police officer while she was with armed men storming the Capitol with Congress on the other side of the door.
Finally, none of this reaction is about it being the "Capitol" (versus a grocery store). Its about that the building was filled with the Vice President and members of Congress who were attempting to be kidnapped and executed while trying to overthrow the government. That was their plan. They got within feet.
Last edited by ukpumacat; 01-08-2021 at 03:09 PM.
~Puma~
I'm also super confused why there is so much more defending and questioning of the woman who was shot (which I have posted a ton of info on) and the Capitol police officer who was killed during the raid.
And why isn't the White House flag at half-mast today? The one at Congress is.
(these questions are not directed to anyone here...ha...I know none of you control the White House flag raising....just asking rhetorically).
~Puma~
And now more info starts to come out.
Video of Capital Police opening some doors to allow the people inside. I walk in, in a line, between the ropes. Oh, evidently there just happened to be some MSM photogs there too. I wondered why people staging a coup would be so orderly walking through Statutory Hall.
You seem to be implying an interruption of congress is a seizure of power of government vs an interruption. Pretty big leak you got there. And if true, I think a lot of groups would have already made a coup agains the US Governement over the past 200 odd years. If our government can be taken over by 200 nutjobs (BTW, now seems to be less than 50 nutjobs and other people that though the police were letting them in... but I digress).
Premeditated by that group of under 50 people. Maybe. I do not even know how to access a dark web to see some of your evidence so cannot confirm or deny. But if our country and congress is at risk by 50 nut jobs, see my earlier post....be prepare when real radicals with real weapons show up.
If you guys on the left continue to push this narrative, it may get really ugly. Seriously. What you should fear is the other Hundreds of Thousands at that event, and the others in our communites in the country do feel cornered and feel helpless in loss of our government to the political elite and take action to end it. that could get bloody. Right now they are just pissed off. But not enough to take physical action. But that is on a tipping point in my opinion.
That is one reason I have gotten off all social media. This is the only place I am having any kind of debate. I will not post anywhere else right now.
Puma, do you believe in any case, that a statistically insignificant subset of any population should create the definition of the whole population? If so, then the whole Progressive Movement is anarchists and Antifa.
That is not how this works. And again, A coup has to have some chance of success, not a suicide misson. At best this was a terrorist act by about 50 nutjobs. I hope they all get tried for the crimes.
This is a little different angle. first if that is correct about the VP, then hang the guilty that planned it and tried to execute. That is not MAGA.
As far as the Senators we are back to the crux of the problem. 61% of the country believes a fraud against their votes occurred.
What the Senators (Cruz et al.) were doing was trying to create a solution to give those voters at least a modicum of peace. Create an Electoral commision to do the investigation ..5 Senators, 5 Congressmen, and 5 SCOTUS. it was to be completed before Jan 20. If the Dems were sure no fraud or laws broken they should have taken the deal because it would have maybe cooled off some of the tempers and maybe solved some distrust. That chance is gone. Biden is now an illegitmate POTUS to at least half the country.
So, those Senators I believe were offering a solution that to me would have solved my distrust in these election results.
BTW, I think we will find that many of those 50 people were true die hard brainwashed Q-Anon.
My wife said she watched the video of the shooting and the woman did not appear to be the target of the shot and the video showed her clearly unarmed. My wife did not see anyone armed in the group. Does not matter, they were forcing their way into a locked and secure area.
I cannot seem to get any of the videos to work for me so have to rely on 2nd hand. Your video did not work for me either. guessing a security setting on this laptop fromwork.
61% of the country believes a fraud against their votes occurred.
Seriously? Do you mean maybe 61% of the people that voted for Trump?
changing my signature to change our luck.
Fwiw, she was def the target of the shot. Hard to explain in writing. But she was 10 feet away from where they were evacuating Congress. And she was the first to try and climb through. More would have been shot except they fled as soon as she was.
~Puma~
Pretty sure the sourcing of that comment is from Rasmussen...and yes, 61% republicans... if I remember what I read correctly
Oh, I think that will happen. And it won't be because anyone on the left "pushed a narrative".
I have very little doubt that there will be some form of a major violent confrontation in the next 4 years. There are a lot of armed people that are frustrated and filled with rage. And many of them feel like they are completely justified to resort to violence.
~Puma~
Yes. A lot more evidence that there were some Capitol Police that were at the very least sympathetic to the cause. This is what Stu and I were referring to earlier about "more coming out". And there will be more than just this imo.
~Puma~
So, how did police find the man who had the bombs and rifle in his truck? They didn't. He came to them.
They found his truck and had it towed to police headquarters. And he went to the police saying his truck had been stolen. Can't make it up.
~Puma~
Wow. Didn't hear that part. That is amazing. At least they're making it easy for law enforcement.
I submit that it most certainly would not have. At least to nearly everyone but you my friend
This will be my final post on the matter and i do mean it in a general sense and not directed at anyone here. Honestly, this is a pretty unique group overall.
But to everyone else out there, here goes.
Barr investigated and his results meant nothing. Why?
States investigated, and dedicated republicans tried to set the record strait.
Why the mistrust?
There's more...
The courts all said that any hint of proof was a literal joke..and the republican lawyers practically admitted the same in some instances,
and in some cases laughed and admitted it was non existent, but could have happened..
The Supreme Court of this country wanted no part of it.
And Trumps lawyers did not even attempt to take a case proving fraud there. Why? Because widespread fraud did not exist. Their case there was to disenfranchise voters and to fraudulently steal the election and rather than take the brunt of such malfeasance called in favors from Texas to do the dirty work. The fraud was that their own supporters would gladly accept it even if their mothers vote were tossed. "It was fraud wasn't it sir?" "Oh Yeah..Biggliest fraud ever..you know, they whispered in my ear, huge, bulging frauds, found in a grass sack, so the proof was rightn' there."]
Every rumor has been shot down without argument and every ridiculous curiosity clearly explained. Yet we just know it was fraudulent because..because..well, because trump couldn't lose. Stop, rinse, and repeat, over and over and over.
Trump followers will believe exactly what he tells them to believe and what suits the narrative he has provided.
It was never, we may win yet...it has been we will win. Think about that.
And think about finding him 11,000 plus votes somewhere to overturn Georgia, or else. So generally speaking, you cant expect me to believe they just needed to be put at ease that no one was trying to steal an election.
It's blatently true someone has been ….and it's been trump and his followers all along. And deep down they at least fear thats true. Well, it is.
Now, I am not saying all republicans, but the group, and a rather large group that do not care one iota about accepting facts...they know major fraud occurred because they believe Trump could never lose, and are shocked that he didn't change the world for them. You know, get a chance to lock Hillary up and all.
In truth many just want some alternate facts and juicy rumor that fits their real desire to install a one party led government with an authoritarian leader. They are programed to want the death of the Democratic party, and they need to feel powerful and in control to justify their rampant hate.
Those are the ones who's minds have been adjusted to think they are battling a huge radical left wing agenda in the media...all media that does not align with what they already believe watching their right wing op-ed guy or gal. (How simple is that), and more importantly in total denial that they are themselves relying on "alternate facts" and outright convenient lies to form the basis for their false illusions.
That by being themselves gently floated downstream so far right their perception of reality is skewed. And in some cases viciously so. And yeah, it works both ways at times....not at this time however.
This has led them to believe the overthrow of the government of the United States, and hatred of all that does not agree with their rigid, non inclusive view of society is an understandable thing, and (SHOCK ALERT) at the moment it was happening, even a good thing.
And that waving a flag when they act seditiously entitles them to wipe themselves on the Constitution and blot out the words "WE THE PEOPLE" and change it to..WE THAT MATTER"
Accommodating fringe groups who resort to some of the most outrageous beliefs in the civilized world. And when those groups start a rumor from their basements and post it on social media they are the very ones who help to incite insurrection and anti American views from average conservative folks who know no better than to believe the pretty packaged propaganda and lies. Some so naïve as to go to kill democratic pedos' in pizza parlor. And the republican party under trump has adopted that group as a huge part of their base while using a massive flow of misinformation and propaganda to sow distrust and develop a cult following opposed to the America we have always known. By using the dark web and hundreds of thousands of truth seekers with no other purpose than to surf. Deceive and deflect..deceive and deflect.
Almost as if the dispassionate realist Goebbels himself, observing with detached, professional expertise the effect of his own carefully rehearsed mob oratory were directing a next century repeat.
There are millions of good republican conservatives who want the best for everyone. And there are certainly good republicans in public service all over this country. Folks need to stop and think why those are the very ones you mistrust when they tell you..stop it..you lost this election
Then again, a huge percentage of avid trump supporters are at least partly at fault for the deaths and the great insult to our country we saw Wednesday. And until sanity returns and a belief in, and loyalty to our system of government returns freedom and self government I'd agree, are eventually lost. All the other stuff and peripheral worries this nation can contain and overcome. But the one thing that it cannot is being a house divided against itself.
If that persists, you and I both are the losers, and our children bare the results of that.
Last edited by kingcat; 01-08-2021 at 09:03 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
2 questions...
1) I keep hearing comments like “that is not MAGA”, then please explain exactly what MAGA is?
2) Why do we need a commission on election fraud when there was 60 different opportunities in court, appearing in front of Trump judges and a Trump SCOTUS, to present fraud cases? Isn’t it more just a case of sore losing? McConnell, Graham and other Republicans have accepted the results and Republican SoS have certified the results. We’ve already had the “commission” and people still can’t accept the results.
You’ve hit the nail on the head, just as the prior 4 years of vitriol and goose chases were the same.
My fear is that this is the new normal. I sure hope not, but the precedent has been established.
https://projects.propublica.org/prot...U50B3emZY7Ai4M
Since there’s lots of talk in this thread about violence in our cities this year I thought I would post this link even though it’s unrelated to Wednesday’s happenings. Peaceful protest is a guaranteed right under the First Amendment. Hopefully most of you will find these clips disturbing; if you don’t it might be time to think about how much of that Constitution thing you actually agree with.
changing my signature to change our luck.
You are incorrect. Not in your description of this being a terrorist act. Not in using the term, nutjobs. You are incorrect in your number. It was thousands that stormed the capitol and according to this poll, about another 30 million (extrapolated by the percentages and adjusting for a healthy MOE) that support their actions.
I was wrong in my assumptions too. I truly thought the insurrection and its support would be limited to a few million people.
Even if I was on the low end, that would be concerning, but thinking this is just a problem of 50 nutjobs is a massive, massive problem. Failure for any of us (and this is definitely a failure on my end) to recognize that the real number of people is probably greater than 30 million people shows just how close we actually are to losing our democracy.
We've already been shown this week how easy it is for enemies of state to take over what we thought was our most secure beacon of Democracy. Never did I think it would be so easy.
At this point, IMO, denial of the reality is pretty much supporting the reality.
Last edited by StuBleedsBlue2; 01-09-2021 at 10:00 AM.
I'm sure there is a significant few who do not care. But what I fear is that our government has been put in a position in which they must deal with those who are a threat to democracy.
And that will include, as was mentioned, researching and labeling those citizens who promote and consider such violent actions as seditionists and criminals.
And there is a point slightly beyond that where legal action against any organized seditionists must be taken.
So it's not the armed actions of those people we need to fear, because they would find armed resistance on their own streets and neighborhoods, and from their own families in most cases.
But it is the actions being forced on our government to maintain order.
But no one should ever doubt the veracity with which Americans will defend freedom and democracy. Even against her own.
History proves that.
Last edited by kingcat; 01-09-2021 at 10:10 AM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Really wish this sight had a block user feature.
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