“What if you knew her, and found her dead on the ground?”
Why were shots fired? Whose life was she threatening?
Was anyone arrested for her murder?
I believe that is the story tonight. She had a family, a story, a life. My condolences to her family and friends.
it's sad anytime a life is lost. I don't envision anyone here as heartless when something like that happens. If that is the implication.
But this was an attack on our government and the officers defending it, there is no mistake about it.
I'd direct such a question to the instigating culprit himself and those who supported the attack. She was likely doing what she thought trump and his supporters wanted her to do for them. By the way, 13 people were arrested, and five firearms were recovered...in our nations capitol. Along with explosive devices.
A police officer was hospitalized along with several others.
D.C. police chief Robert J. Contee III said the mob of Trump voters came to Capitol Hill "following the president's remarks" and was "intent on causing harm to our officers by deploying chemical irritants on police to force entry into the United States Capitol."
This wasn't kids like we were then smoking pot and sitting on college grounds peacefully, and imo it's not fair to their memory to compare them to an armed attack on this nation and it's capitol.
An attack on America.
.
Last edited by kingcat; 01-06-2021 at 07:54 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Prayers to her family. Whether she knew what she was doing or not, she stormed the United States Capitol in an act of insurrection against the legitimate government of the United States.
She died a traitor’s death. And while my condolences and prayers to her family and friends are sincere, anyone who stormed our house and lived is is on borrowed time.
Arrest. Try. Administer the proper punishment.
The lady who died was Ashley Babbitt, a 14 year Air Force veteran from San Diego who did four tours during her time but you wanna say she’s a traitor. WOW!!Originally Posted by UKHistory
I do not condone what anyone there did today, but let’s make one thing clear. That house belongs to those who stormed it in protest just as much as it belongs to you and I.
Amen
Your agreement is all the affirmation I need. Thank you sir.
Ashli was a part, innocent herself or not, of an armed group attacking with guns and chemicals while illegally entering our nations capitol. With a gallows built on the grounds, the walls being scaled, and threats of violence against members of congress. You nor I know her intent. Nor did the officers who only knew she had broken several federal laws at that point.
She did not enter legally nor was she checked for weapons. She was being told to stay back by capitol police as she illegally stormed into the chambers. One of which was still in the hospital last I heard along with others.
"One witness, who identified himself as Thomas from New Jersey, said that after storming into the chambers, police yelled for the mob to get back. He said the woman “didn't heed the call” as they rushed to the chamber windows. "Then they shot her in the neck,” Thomas said"
According to the New York Daily, twitter video shows that "Babbitt was shot near a doorway inside the Capitol among a group of insurrectionists. One video obtained by The News appeared to show Babbitt beginning to climb through the broken window of a door to the “Speaker’s Lobby” when she was shot. It was unclear who pulled the trigger"
It is sad to see someone, anyone die unnecessarily. Yet, I'd refer back to the things being said here about the BLM protests and the suggestions given to law enforcement in protecting a street or vacant building if I were you. Many military veterans were taking part in those too.
And this was much more egregious than any of those protests. No one supports what happened today..do they? The day and the inspiration behind will go down in infamy and is an unprecedented embarrassment to this nation. A part of that embarrassment is that harsher measures were not taken soon enough to protect the capitol building from the terrorists.
Last edited by kingcat; 01-06-2021 at 10:02 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
The Capitol building belongs to "We The People" housing our elected officials and cannot be treated with blatant disrespect and criminal actions with intent by anyone. Neither foreign invaders nor domestic.
It was a direct attack on that sovereign trust.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
What they did was wrong. Not questioning it. But those people did have a right to be there. They just had no right to break in and should be punished accordingly.
Two bombs were found in front of both party headquarters. A long gun and Molotov cocktails were also found on capitol grounds. Thats not to mention the personal weapons, chemical irritants, and a gallows built outside with threats to the senate. The police had barricaded themselves in the chamber and were warning people to turn back, This young lady was shot breaking through that barricade and climbing through broken window glass while ignoring commands to retreat.
All rights were negated in such an insurrection which was a battle zone at that time. It was not a visit to the nations capitol or peaceful protest on the grounds.
I mean, the insurrectionists even scaled the capitol walls??
This was an attack aimed at forcing the senate to switch electoral votes to Trump and basically install trump as supreme leader in spite of any vote. An attack on democracy no ifs, ands, or buts.
The death is indirectly the fault of Donald Trump. The attack was directly his baby along with Giuliani and a few others. By their own words..
Before the attack at the presidents Save America rally in D.C...
The former New York mayor walked on stage to “Macho Man” before calling on Trump supporters to settle the dispute over the election via “trial by combat.” Giuliani then assured the thousands of protesters that he was “willing to stake my reputation,” on the existence of election-altering fraud at play, ignoring the fact that such unfounded claims have repeatedly been laughed out of court. “And if we are wrong we will be made fools of,”
Last edited by kingcat; 01-06-2021 at 11:24 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
We debated several other deaths on here in the last year.
And to every one of them, almost everyone said something about how the person put themselves in a position to deserve what happened to them. How they did something wrong.
In this case, this lady from my hometown was a part of a giant mob that was armed and storming the United States Capitol where our VP and entire Congress was meeting. And she was shot climbing through a door they smashed that was barricaded with furniture because the staff was so scared.
She wasn’t murdered. No one will be arrested. What happened was horrific and sad all the way around. But frankly, it’s astonishing (and scary) she was the only one shot.
On the scene Twitter reports claimed rioters ripped an American flag off of a flagpole tossing it to the ground outside the United States Capitol building and replaced it with a Trump flag. This to cheers from the crowd.
Imho only emblematic of what had already occurred in reality all across this country.
I sense the 25th will come into play after todays events.
Last edited by kingcat; 01-07-2021 at 01:08 AM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
I'm no friend of Trump, but also regarded the opposition as hysterical. The Russian collusion theory was absurd, as was the notion of obstruction of justice (without a crime to obstruct) and the impeachment nonsense. Along the way, the Democratic majority in the Senate disgraced itself with Kavanaugh and other times.
That said, Trump crossed into Aaron Burr territory today. On 1/21, he should be arrested and tried for sedition. A substantial prison term. In a different age, it would be the death penalty. This was really serious.
My mother used to tell me, "Elwood, in this world, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so nice." For years I was smart. I recommend nice. You may quote me. - Elwood P. Dowd
Welcome to “shoot the looters” everyone trying to justify the shooting.
Last edited by bigsky; 01-07-2021 at 03:17 AM.
Should have shot a lot more of them in my opinion. This wasn’t some sort of tragedy. This was part of an attempted overthrow of our government.
It’s astounding how much a made up fantasy like Q-Anon can influence people to turn on their own nation, including many that have dedicated their lives to the defense of that country. But once you cross that line from defender to attacker, you’re no better than anyone else.
Last edited by Catfan73; 01-07-2021 at 07:12 AM.
changing my signature to change our luck.
“Should have been done long ago” in Porland Minnesota and Wisconsin, eh?
Any defense of what happened yesterday is a losing proposition. It was an anti American action that requires the condemnation of Americans. And the nations leaders and its huge majority agree.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Yeah. If you defend Kenosha, Minneapolis and Portland, Atlanta suburb violent riots but are all unglued about the Capitol riot then you have no ethics, just ideology.
So let me be clear; violent riots are wrong, can’t be condoned, and require a forceful, even violent response by government. That does not mean shooting looters, but the catch and release system sends a message of lawlessness. We had a lawless summer and fall. I am bot surprised that we have sown the seeds of violent riot and yesterday we reaped the whirlwind.
any defense of what happened in Minneapolis, Kenosha, Portland, et al is a losing proposition. It is anti american and requires the condemnation of all americans. The failure of the incoming President and Vice President to condemn, perhaps the outright encouragement even, has sowed the seeds of yesterday.
👏 👏 Amen
But those riots fit their narrative perfectly.
Whatever you believe about what actually occurred during BLM protests or riots or whatever you want to call them has absolutely no bearing on what happened yesterday. This was an attempted coup on the United States ordered by the sitting president. In what way could anything that happened in Portland or wherever make that acceptable? There is no justification. Period.
changing my signature to change our luck.
That's a fair point. They are not equal events (as none are) but I do get the larger point of how police deal with out of control situations. I will be honest and say that I don't know how they should be handled. This summer, if looters had of been shot, it likely would have escalated the riots and looting and made the situation worse.
Likely, that would have been the same yesterday (although I have no way of knowing). In retrospect, the situation yesterday could have escalated even greater as well. So, I don't know the "right" way for law enforcement to handle it.
That comparison only works on how police react to large mobs. Beyond that, we should stop using the comparison because the point of yesterday was far greater, grander and scarier.
As for yesterday, there was a dereliction of duty somewhere along the way not being prepared for that crowd. I do not know who dropped the ball (whether it was the Capitol police, city, federal government, etc). I watched a video of how it all started (will post elsewhere) and they were simply unprepared for a mob that had just been fired up by their leader. And all of that was very predictable. No one would have likely been shot if they were more prepared with tactics to hold that crowd back. If it wasn't Trump's crowd, I suspect that would have been done.
~Puma~
I am taking a brief pause from my retirement from this board because I just cannot stay silent any longer relating to this..
First, I have to applaud your courage for actually expressing your opinions during this time. It seems like the folks that were SO vocal about their outrage from anthem kneelings, BLM and social justice movements are completely silent on these events. One can draw conclusions from their silence anywhere from support to this being absolute disgust that they have no words, or anywhere in between. I have a strong feeling where they lie, but that is not for me to declare.
I just have to respond to points that you have made...
First, playing whataboutism is absolutely appalling. What happened during the summer was absolutely condemned by people on this board, our leaders, especially Joe Biden, the Democratic mayors of towns and so much else.
Second, a prime differentiator between what happened this summer and what happened yesterday is that is was encouraged and supported by the President of the United States, Senators and the former mayor of NY. NO politicians, well except for the same ones here, supported the violence and rioting of last summer.
Third, it was an attempted coup of our government and democracy centered on the MOST iconic symbol of those ideals. This wasn't a Wendy's.
Fourth, where was security? Perhaps the most secure public federal building, this coup was allowed to happen. We spend $745 billion on security and our Capitol fell in minutes. Safety aside, that is a HORRIBLE ROI on our investment. It's pretty clear (based on photos of security taken with the terrorists) that it was an inside job. Living outside of DC, talking to my colleagues this morning, I have heard multiple stories about having guns drawn for simple things such as sledding or throwing frisbee to close to the Capitol grounds.
Fifth, an obvious thing not being addressed, if these people sitting at Pelosi's desk and the Senate President's chair were non-white or non-Christian, they would be dead now and the country would be applauding.
Sixth, you have TOTALLY missed what Neil Young was singing about. He was NOT singing about insurgents, whack-jobs, enemies of the state being innocently mowed down. Bringing up those lyrics is about as crazy as Donald Trump playing Fortunate Son at his rallies or Guiliani playing Macho Man.
I'll stop there, but I could keep going on.
We are not a perfect nation, but anything short of full prosecution on everyone responsible from the top down, including law enforcement that allowed this to happen, will be a permanent stain on our nation's history.
We have been screaming at the top of our lungs for years that this is the threat we faced. Those that worked for Trump and were "disloyal" to him told us that this is what he had planned. We should not be surprised.
However, we should be surprised, saddened, stunned and outraged at anyone who is silent, passive or suggesting that anything of recent times is equal to what happened yesterday. I hold any of those folks complicit on the attack of our nation and ideals.
Absolutely agree. Unfortunately, we live in a world (on both sides) where tit for tat comparisons is the way of the world (again, both sides do this).
On this thread only (because of the topic), I think its fair to ask (and even cite past examples) on how the police should handle these situations (many were in the same city). Beyond that, I think its a distraction and a sidestep to the major event that happened yesterday.
I mean, be honest, what else are Hannity, Ingraham and Tucker supposed to do? They can't just say, "well, we blew it the past 4 years when we supported that crazy clown every single day. And he just incited a riot on the National Capitol and an insurrection against our form of government."
I mean, I wish. But, they are lacky's that have profited off of Trump and his followers for years.
So, of course they are going to compare it to BLM. And of course they are going to start saying it was really Antifa (I don't know if they did this as I don't even know if they had a show last night with all of these events....but hold tight, they will. Its the MAGA playbook.).
~Puma~
Glad to see you back, even if its brief.
Wanted to just highlight this point above. The most dangerous part of the Trump/Maga movement has been Trump's ability to completely mow down those who actually had a spine. It was entirely like a cult leader (not "like").
For years, good people close to Trump have warned us this type of thing would happen. That Trump was an existential threat to our government. And for years, MAGA simply dismissed them and made them as traitors. I was amazed at the way some of them were talked about on this board. 4-6 years ago, some of these guys were worshipped on this very board. But now, they are the enemy.
The most dangerous ploy of the next several days and weeks will be for MAGA to downplay what happened yesterday.
"It was Antifa".
"It was just a protest".
"Its just Trump being Trump".
It was FAR more than all of that. It was an attack on our way of government and on democracy. And it should be called that. Many Republicans are thankfully doing that. Unfortunately, in the upside down MAGA world, those are now all the enemy. They aren't "patriots".
I keep thinking about Mitt Romney. That guy is a conservative at his very core (fiscally and socially). He has been for years and years. He isn't a part of the "swamp" any more than Trump is. He has been very successful in real life for years. He is terribly well respected in his state.
And because he had the gall a few years ago to tell us what he thought about Trump, he became a "loser".
He's a multi-millionaire flying in coach to DO THE RIGHT thing and certify the legal winner of the election. And he was being berated by a plane full of MAGA on their way to storm the Capitol.
THAT guy is a true patriot. And yet, in Trump world, he is the complete enemy. What a backwards world.
~Puma~
So we are all on agreement that yesterday was an armed insurrection and an attack on our government? The disagreements here are not genuine I suspicion. But that can be easily remedied.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Yes. And more.
An armed insurrection and an attack on our government incited by the sitting President trying to overthrow the election in order to remain in power.
~Puma~
Puma, all good points about Romney. Did you see his floor speech last night? The fact that the applause came from Democrats and very few Republicans is a perfect sentiment to illustrate your point.
I go way back before Romney. It's an endless list that is growing leaps and bounds. I think about Rex Tillerson. I think about when he was first named SoS, my thought was how perfect; an oil man heading our state. Then I closely followed his confirmation hearing and I was impressed. I had a brief moment of thought about maybe Trump was actually capable of putting reasonable businessmen in charge of prime cabinet positions. That definitely did not turn out to be true with others, but when Tillerson was one of the first to recognize Trump for who he was, it should have been a red flag to many, but instead he just became one of the first "losers".
Even though so many Republicans were complicit in getting us to where we are now, I cannot do anything at this moment but applaud what they are doing today. There will be time for judgments later, but those Republicans now calling to invoke the 25th Amendment should be praised. My gosh, Trump has even lost Bill Barr.
THAT guy is a true patriot. And yet, in Trump world, he is the complete enemy. What a backwards world.
Crazy.
changing my signature to change our luck.
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