Donald Trump committing voter fraud?

[ukpumacat]

In one of the affidavits they filed, the lawyers confused Minnesota (MN) with Michigan (MI). They used Michigan voter totals and Minnesota population totals. This is where they were trying to prove more people voted in Michigan than there are people.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archiv...-are-doing.php

[ukpumacat]

Honest question:

In our Nation's History, can anyone think of an instance where a sitting U.S. President attempted to subvert the will of the American people and stay in the White House?

And I am asking this seriously, not trying to make a point.

I am not talking about claiming there was fraud or filing a lawsuit. That has happened a few times that I can remember. But I cannot remember a President going this far. Actually meeting with Michigan Legislature leaders hoping they will ignore the vote and appoint their own electors.
Rudy G actually said this was part of their plan to overturn the election. To get legislatures to appoint different electors.

I was a History Major and cannot remember it happening. But, just curious if anyone else can. Has this ever happened?

[CitizenBBN]

Honest question:

In our Nation's History, can anyone think of an instance where a sitting U.S. President attempted to subvert the will of the American people and stay in the White House?

And I am asking this seriously, not trying to make a point.

I am not talking about claiming there was fraud or filing a lawsuit. That has happened a few times that I can remember. But I cannot remember a President going this far. Actually meeting with Michigan Legislature leaders hoping they will ignore the vote and appoint their own electors.
Rudy G actually said this was part of their plan to overturn the election. To get legislatures to appoint different electors.

I was a History Major and cannot remember it happening. But, just curious if anyone else can. Has this ever happened?

THat's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.

Trump isn't trying to stay in office. He's setting up for his campaign that will run for 4 years. he's not "subverting the will of the American people", he's playing politics. You know it and so do I and so does everyone else.

[ukpumacat]

THat's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.

Trump isn't trying to stay in office. He's setting up for his campaign that will run for 4 years. he's not "subverting the will of the American people", he's playing politics. You know it and so do I and so does everyone else.

Ha. I didn't mean it that way. I am asking honestly about precedent. I think he doesn't think it will work. But I think he is trying. Rudy G said he was.

But honestly, ignore Trump for a moment.

What happens if the State Board of Electors (2 Democrats and 2 Republicans) in Michigan refuse to certify the election results? That is an absolute threat to democracy. It has never ever happened that I can think of. That is what I am trying to ask.
And because there is no precedent, no one knows what will happen. Trump is meeting with the Republican Legislative leaders hoping it goes to them and that they will select their own electors.
My best understanding is that a judge could/would force them to certify or hold them in contempt. But no one seems to know since it has never happened.

[CitizenBBN]

Ha. I didn't mean it that way. I am asking honestly about precedent. I think he doesn't think it will work. But I think he is trying. Rudy G said he was.

But honestly, ignore Trump for a moment.

What happens if the State Board of Electors (2 Democrats and 2 Republicans) in Michigan refuse to certify the election results? That is an absolute threat to democracy. It has never ever happened that I can think of. That is what I am trying to ask.
And because there is no precedent, no one knows what will happen. Trump is meeting with the Republican Legislative leaders hoping it goes to them and that they will select their own electors.
My best understanding is that a judge could/would force them to certify or hold them in contempt. But no one seems to know since it has never happened.

Why do you see that as a threat to democracy?

Say they don't certify. Will Michigan decide to not have any elections in the future? Will the nation?

What exactly will it do, other than what we saw this year with even more people ginned up and out voting?

It's unprecedented, in an era of unprecedented.

Reid eliminating the filibuster for judicial appointments was unprecedented, a Senate rule that had stood basically since 1970, though cloture goes back to the early 1900s. Then McConnell raises the unprecedented to eliminate it for SCOTUS. Schumer is threatening to eliminate it completely, which would be truly unprecedented going back to a time when the Senate was elected by state legislatures.

We haven't even tried to pack a court since FDR failed, and that's on the table at least in threat.

We're in the middle of a 100 year political crisis, which is why I often cite the Hurst/Pulitzer days to describe our current media. Not a coincidence btw that we have a handful of companies that now control most of our news media, much as Hurst and Pulitzer were the dominant controlling voices of the media in that era.

But is it a threat to democracy? I fail to see what it is going to do that is going to in any way curtail the democratic process in the long run. If anything it's fueling the fire to vote.

[ukpumacat]

But is it a threat to democracy? I fail to see what it is going to do that is going to in any way curtail the democratic process in the long run. If anything it's fueling the fire to vote.

What?!? It isn't about future elections (well, not yet). If the will of the people is not honored, and different electors were chosen by the State legislature....and those electors chose a different candidate than the people voted into office....that isn't even a "threat to democracy" its an actual attack on it.
I literally cannot believe this is even debatable.

What would even be the point of voting if the will of the voters isn't honored??

[CitizenBBN]

What?!? It isn't about future elections (well, not yet). If the will of the people is not honored, and different electors were chosen by the State legislature....and those electors chose a different candidate than the people voted into office....that isn't even a "threat to democracy" its an actual attack on it.
I literally cannot believe this is even debatable.

What would even be the point of voting if the will of the voters isn't honored??

Well first off, to answer you question, this has exactly happened before, 1877 when Rutherford B Hayes was elected despite his opponent getting a majority of votes and the electoral count, due to the refusal of 3 states to certify the results for one or the other candidate. The whole thing was thrown to a special commission of Congress and Hayes emerged.

Then there is the election of 1824 when Jackson won a plurality but not a majority of electors in a 3 way race, and Henry Clay brokered a deal to make JQA the POTUS if he became Sec of State.

So it's happened, and democracy survived just fine.

I just take issue with everything the last 4 years being "a threat to democracy" or the Constitution, 99.9% of it from Trump.

It's just not going to happen. The course of democracy wasn't changed in 1877, wasn't changed in 1824, wasn't changed when Bush I and Gore was decided by SCOTUS along party lines, etc.

There's actually a lot of precedent for these things happening, and none has unhinged us.

And that goes to what I see as the hyperbole of "why vote if the vote isn't honored". In fact a lot of times in our history the vote wasn't "honored", depending on who you ask, and we got along fine the next time. In fact many now claim the vote isn't honored by the entire Electoral College system. They're wrong, but they sure believe it.

I'm just not a person given to hyperbole.

Esp. when the real threats have nothing to do with this stage drama. The real undoing of things will come if the filibuster ends or SCOTUS is packed. Biden won't pack the court and neither will the Senate, but they may be able to end the filibuster. That's going to be very very tempting.

That is a real, long term structural change that is a threat. Most of the rest of this is just theater. In the end biden will be POTUS, Trump will run a 4 year campaign to run again, and us pissants will all go about our lives and still vote like we have in every other election. Nothing will actually change if Michigan doesn't certify, any more than it changed in 1877 or 2000.

[ukpumacat]

Well first off, to answer you question, this has exactly happened before, 1877 when Rutherford B Hayes was elected despite his opponent getting a majority of votes and the electoral count, due to the refusal of 3 states to certify the results for one or the other candidate. The whole thing was thrown to a special commission of Congress and Hayes emerged.

I will have to go back and read up on that. Thanks.

[ukpumacat]

I don't know if it will be enough for the two Democratic candidates...but I still think all of this hurts the Republicans in the Senate run-offs. As I posted in the other thread, none of this plays well with that small % of movable voters.

Trump lost and Osoff still didn't win on the same ballot. Which means there are some Biden voters they can sway. The bases will both come out. But all of this nonsense just does not work with them. They watch the Rudy G stuff and just think he's crazy. They don't watch OANN or read Breitbart.

[KentuckyWildcat]

They watch the Rudy G stuff and just think he's crazy.

I consider myself fairly center, but keep in mind some of think both are crazy.

[CitizenBBN]

I will have to go back and read up on that. Thanks.

I'm weak on that one. I spent a lot of time in the 19th century but less on politics and more on political economy.

But I had a great class in the Age of Jackson and spent a lot of time on the 1824 election and later Jackson administration. Of course Jackson's base was so outraged they came out in 1828 and made him POTUS, and made JQA a one term President. A very familiar situation.

Actually that election and the subsequent 4 year campaign for Jackson may be instructive here on a few levels.

It's a great example of why I'm not too moved by the current hyperbole. In the running 1824 to 1828 election, as with any at that time, it was bitter and personal. Jackson was accused of everything from bigamy to cannibalism in the Coffin Handbills, and JQA was accused of being an agent for the Russian Czar while he was Ambassador to Russia and of course a host of other things.

Honestly the old days had nothing on QAnon. They made up all kinds of outrageous nonsense.

Then there were the Jackson supporters who, in support of "Old Hickory", brought hickory sticks to polling places to "encourage" voting the right way.

What we see today has nothing on the history of American elections, in either bitterness or brazenness or truthfulness.

Oh, and a PS for what we will see soon: Jackson in 1828 refused to go to the White House as was then customary, and JQA didn't go to the inauguration. It was very bitter.

[ukpumacat]

Oh, and a PS for what we will see soon: Jackson in 1828 refused to go to the White House as was then customary, and JQA didn't go to the inauguration. It was very bitter.

Ya, the Jackson stuff was intense. I love the stories of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Two guys that hated each other in politics, wrote letters arguing about it (a modern day message board), and then gained tons of respect for each other and became lifelong friends. Died the exact same day, states apart...July 4th. Cool stuff.

I'm oddly interested to see what happens on Inauguration Day. If you were placing bets on whether Trump goes...?

[kingcat]

A dangerous time for democracy. I agree with Mitt Romney.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

A dangerous time for democracy. I agree with Mitt Romney.

Agreed. I also don’t buy that because it was tested before and passed that it can’t fail later. Every great empire eventually falls.

Besides that sentiment, there’s a “too big to fail” mentality, but when you have nearly 50m people that is ready to disavow democracy in favor of a wannabe authoritarian who has abandoned allies and warmed up to enemies and dictators, it’s very difficult NOT to question whether this is the time.

He has divided us. He has attacked our freedoms, declaring them our enemies. He has denigrated our soldiers and intelligence communities in favor of our enemies. He has violated our Constitution. He has broken laws in office. I can go on and on. The fact that it is just fine with so many and those people tend to have an intense hatred for their fellow Americans, a desire to “own” them. It’s a lethal and unprecedented challenge to our Democracy.

Thankfully he lost and we may not get to see what he would do with unlimited powers.

[ukpumacat]

Republican Senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania joins the others mentioned above. Just released a statement (after Rudy's latest lawsuit was dismissed):

Attachment 9812

Strong statement honestly. Especially his Michigan comments. That whole "invite Michigan Representatives to Washington, put them up in Trump tower and serve them $500 bottles of Dom" while openly asking the Republican legislature of Michigan to "do the right thing" on twitter (send different electors and ignore the vote) isn't playing well.
And more and more GOP Senators are going to do this. They are all weighing the danger...piss off Trump and his followers by doing the right thing or alienate all moderate Republicans and independents and subvert the voters.

[ukpumacat]

And of course Trump has now attacked the Republican judge and Toomey.
These are always warning shots to others speaking out but they seem to have lost their effectiveness of late.

[ukpumacat]

Another strong statement from Chris Christie. Calls Trump's legal team/tactics a "National Embarrassment".

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...705651206?s=20

[ukpumacat]

For those keeping score.

The legal team of Donald Trump is now alleging that communist money was funneled through Venezuela to Republican Governor Brian Kemp to elect Joe Biden as President (but of course won't produce any evidence. Its just what she has "heard".)

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/st...062085122?s=20

For any of you who think QAnon is just a fringe group in the Republican Party....it has now infiltrated Trump's legal defense team.

From an American standpoint: this is dangerous, awful and disgusting.

From a Political standpoint: this is a complete and utter disaster. Its driving die hard Republicans to come out in support of Biden. And its made those more moderate Republicans who voted for Biden but otherwise Republican down ballot have to choose between a candidate and a gross conspiracy. Its just stupid politics.

[ukpumacat]

Rich Lowry, hyper conservative editor of the National Review just tweeted:

"It’s the all-purpose, burn-it-all-down, give-Joe-Biden-control-of-the-Senate conspiracy theory".

https://twitter.com/RichLowry/status...438974977?s=20

[kingcat]

Another strong statement from Chris Christie. Calls Trump's legal team/tactics a "National Embarrassment".

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...705651206?s=20

It's very hard to admit one is mistaken about a man's character after giving him total trust. Trump succeeded in villainizing even George Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney who were stalwarts of the republican party and admired here for their character and leadership qualities. That, until they were told to believe otherwise.

And those who have went all in...seemingly have no recourse in where they apply their loyalty even if it means joining our enemies in bringing reproach to our country by accusations that amount to calling her a farce and a sham.

Even in defiance of those like the head of Homeland Security...who was immediately fired because he dare defend the United States against such accusations. Such defiance is actually not against democrats this time despite trying to paint it as such....it's against the United States of America.
And there is no word, many will believe except the word of Mr Trump. It does not matter what that may be.

The new Trump mantra should be changed from MAGA to MASE at this point.
Make America Something Else
It's nearing time for everyone to choose and let history decide the wisdom of that choice. In that light, maybe some will reconsider before it's too late.

Now, I firmly believe my friends here are also weighing these things in their mind. And I would not, by choice, want to offend any. Except in hope they consider that folks like me, just may be right in this instance.
I will defend any attack against my country with whatever voice is afforded me. And it is an attack imo.

And I will try not to post much more on the subject here. Everyone is entrenched in, and by their opinion.

[ukpumacat]

This is gettting juicy.

Trump (as expected) calls out Maryland Governor Larry Hogan for calling Joe Biden President Elect.
Hogan comes back with a scathing tweet:

https://twitter.com/govlarryhogan/st...841430017?s=21

This is popcorn stuff and I am here for it. Trumpism vs Republicans. Who wins?

[ukpumacat]

Murkowski joins the others.

https://twitter.com/acosta/status/13...569638912?s=21

[ukpumacat]

FYI. Trumps “legal team” says Sidney Powell is not on their legal team.
This is after they introduced her as part of their legal team at the clown show last week.
And after Trump tweeted saying she was a part of their legal team 2 weeks ago.

Fun stuff.