Hot water heater

[dan_bgblue]

And of course, I forgot my voltage meter....

If you can purchase just the thermostats then I would do that without further testing. If you have to replace the thermostat and heating element both at the same tiime, then I would wait and test before draining the tank and replacing the element. jmho

[kingcat]

Good luck with it regardless.

From "the five reason your water heater overheats"..

#2..Testing the heating element will show if it is shorting or not. A shorted element is one of the reasons for overheating.

That is a common problem with hard water.

[KeithKSR]

Starting to think so. I've adjusted the temp the last two days. I've made very very very small adjustments. And it seems like I either have warm or HOT.

Sounds like it may have a burned contact inside the thermostat. Are you adjusting both thermostats?

[dan_bgblue]

I hope this tale of woe had a happy ending.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I hope this tale of woe had a happy ending.

Right now i have it back at warm. Going to cross my fingers it holds out until christmas break. Then I'll probably replace elements and thermostat.

Biggest issue right now is wife complaining the shower is not hot enough.

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[dan_bgblue]

Women.

[blueboss]

IIRC y...

Never mind


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[Darrell KSR]

Right now i have it back at warm. Going to cross my fingers it holds out until christmas break. Then I'll probably replace elements and thermostat.

Biggest issue right now is wife complaining the shower is not hot enough.

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Women.

Replacing the element and thermostat is a lot cheaper than replacing the woman...

[KentuckyWildcat]

Well...took Darrell's advice and called the guy...took a shower this afternoon and it was COLD. So I guess it did not make it to Christmas break for me to fix it.

I went back and looked at it later, not sure why, just wanted to go look. I noticed one of the fuses was blown. Perhaps it has been flickering on and off the last few weeks causing my inconsistant temps? Probably not likey but maybe? Either way, I guess I'll let him come out since I'm cooking for the chruch the next few nights.

Note: it has fuses because of the distance from my breaker box.

[dan_bgblue]

Note: it has fuses because of the distance from my breaker box.

No offense intended. I have never heard anything like that. Do you mind explaining the reasoning behind that bit of info.

[kingcat]

I know water heaters use a thermal fuse, but never heard of an inline current fuse.
Perhaps just an added safety feature to prevent current brown outs or spikes when it initially comes on. Really, I just don't know, obviously.

[KentuckyWildcat]

No offense intended. I have never heard anything like that. Do you mind explaining the reasoning behind that bit of info.

I know water heaters use a thermal fuse, but never heard of an inline current fuse.
Perhaps just an added safety feature to prevent current brown outs or spikes when it initially comes on. Really, I just don't know, obviously.

I don't mind to explain, but I can't lol

I built in 2010. At that time, it was required for hot water heaters over a certain distance from the breaker panel. I do not know the distance required for this. But I do know my hot water heater is closer than my parents (built in 1985). I'd guess mine at 35 feet away so maybe 50 feet of wire? Obviously for safety, if anything shorts out, it should stop at the fuse and not go all the way back to the panel. Personally, I'd prefer a small breaker box, but I was not given that option even if it was an option.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I will add that our power service is horrible. It blinks all of the time. So it could be a local best practice?

[Darrell KSR]

I don't know a thing about electrical work, but that actually sounds like a really good idea.

[dan_bgblue]

I don't mind to explain, but I can't lol

I built in 2010. At that time, it was required for hot water heaters over a certain distance from the breaker panel. I do not know the distance required for this. But I do know my hot water heater is closer than my parents (built in 1985). I'd guess mine at 35 feet away so maybe 50 feet of wire? Obviously for safety, if anything shorts out, it should stop at the fuse and not go all the way back to the panel. Personally, I'd prefer a small breaker box, but I was not given that option even if it was an option.

That does make good sense and is a good safety feature, and like you having a small breaker panel would be more convenient than a fuse panel.

[CitizenBBN]

I don't mind to explain, but I can't lol

I built in 2010. At that time, it was required for hot water heaters over a certain distance from the breaker panel. I do not know the distance required for this. But I do know my hot water heater is closer than my parents (built in 1985). I'd guess mine at 35 feet away so maybe 50 feet of wire? Obviously for safety, if anything shorts out, it should stop at the fuse and not go all the way back to the panel. Personally, I'd prefer a small breaker box, but I was not given that option even if it was an option.

Not sure how it's that much safer solely due to distance. GFCI does that of course to prevent as much of the current from passing in a short as possible, bc there's a possibility it's passing through a person. I'm not aware of anything like that around here for something like a water heater. A local cutoff certainly, like any HVAC, and a local breaker for it sure, but requiring an actual fuse versus a breaker to me makes no sense.

HVAC has a breaker built into the unit now, and then often you'll have a local breaker which is really mostly for local cutoff for safety when servicing them more than the extra distance. I'm not sure why water heaters don't seem to have a built in breaker but fuse versus breaker has me confused.

Maybe it was an option and they didn't do it that way, maybe there's a reason. Mostly I'm just intrigued at this point.

[KeithKSR]

No offense intended. I have never heard anything like that. Do you mind explaining the reasoning behind that bit of info.

The feeder line to the fuse box probably has a higher capacity than the water heater requires. I did one like that. I ran a 50 amp line to a fuse box, then used 30 amp fuses for the hot water heater and 20 amp fuses for the well pump, it was in my in-law’s house. Later when rural water came through I replaced the 50 amp breaker with a 30 amp breaker and eliminated the fuse panel and the well pump. I used the fuse box because I had it on hand and the wife’s parents were on a fixed income.

[KeithKSR]

Not sure how it's that much safer solely due to distance. GFCI does that of course to prevent as much of the current from passing in a short as possible, bc there's a possibility it's passing through a person. I'm not aware of anything like that around here for something like a water heater. A local cutoff certainly, like any HVAC, and a local breaker for it sure, but requiring an actual fuse versus a breaker to me makes no sense.

HVAC has a breaker built into the unit now, and then often you'll have a local breaker which is really mostly for local cutoff for safety when servicing them more than the extra distance. I'm not sure why water heaters don't seem to have a built in breaker but fuse versus breaker has me confused.

Maybe it was an option and they didn't do it that way, maybe there's a reason. Mostly I'm just intrigued at this point.

The 2017 NEC required a disconnect within sight of a device like a water heater. There may have been a local code requiring it in KentuckyWildcat’s area in 2010. They likely used the fused disconnect instead of the breaker disconnect due to having one on hand.

[CitizenBBN]

The 2017 NEC required a disconnect within sight of a device like a water heater. There may have been a local code requiring it in KentuckyWildcat’s area in 2010. They likely used the fused disconnect instead of the breaker disconnect due to having one on hand.

I get having the local breaker box in that location. I don't know if it's due to distance so much as being able to quickly turn it off and also for verification during service. I didn't know they had applied it to hot water heaters.

As for the fuse box that's my guess as well. I don't know a reason to have fuses versus breakers.

I want to upgrade my breakers to the AFCI breakers. They're proud of those things though, and right now they aren't easily in stock.

[KeithKSR]

I get having the local breaker box in that location. I don't know if it's due to distance so much as being able to quickly turn it off and also for verification during service. I didn't know they had applied it to hot water heaters.

As for the fuse box that's my guess as well. I don't know a reason to have fuses versus breakers.

I want to upgrade my breakers to the AFCI breakers. They're proud of those things though, and right now they aren't easily in stock.

I probably could have used AFCI breakers last winter. I had a buss bar in my panel that was arcing out. At first it randomly caused the power to flash on and off, so we thought it was in the power coming in. Ultimately I had no power to one of the 120V buss bars a day or two later. I had an electrician come and look at it while I was at work, he found the problem and had an extra buss bar to replace it with. A $100 well spent.

[CitizenBBN]

I probably could have used AFCI breakers last winter. I had a buss bar in my panel that was arcing out. At first it randomly caused the power to flash on and off, so we thought it was in the power coming in. Ultimately I had no power to one of the 120V buss bars a day or two later. I had an electrician come and look at it while I was at work, he found the problem and had an extra buss bar to replace it with. A $100 well spent.

Yes that should have found it and tripped the breaker.

They run $30-$40 each right now. Spending $1,000ish on replacing good breakers seems like a lot. Not sure if that price will come down in the mid future.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Plumber said it shorted out and I was lucky it did not catch on fire. I assume the element since it was on the bottom. Hope to ask him more tomorrow.

So now to replace...I went with a propane tankless. $1300 ugh....but the real problem, I don't have a propane tank yet. I've called EVERYONE around and have found one I can buy. Now to weigh the option of buying vs leasing. And none of them can get it to me for 3 weeks. So I have brought mom's vertical tank over, hopefully I can get it installed and use that temporarily.

[KeithKSR]

Plumber said it shorted out and I was lucky it did not catch on fire. I assume the element since it was on the bottom. Hope to ask him more tomorrow.

So now to replace...I went with a propane tankless. $1300 ugh....but the real problem, I don't have a propane tank yet. I've called EVERYONE around and have found one I can buy. Now to weigh the option of buying vs leasing. And none of them can get it to me for 3 weeks. So I have brought mom's vertical tank over, hopefully I can get it installed and use that temporarily.

Elements don’t short out, they burn out and create an open circuit. I’ve seen thermostats short and melt some wires.

You’ll have to give us a review of 5he tankless heater after you begin using it. I’ve been wondering about how they would do in a whole house situation.

[kingcat]

Not to harp on it but elements do short out Keith, and then rather quickly lose all ability to pass current through the disintegrating rod usually caked with sediment.
Very, very common, while thermostats usually do not short, they just quit working. Whether from worn contacts, sensors, or what have you. I guess they can if the wires accidently touch.

I had it happen, and the water was near scalding for a day or two..then cold. The lower element looked like the one below only worse as mine actually came out in pieces from the continuous shorting out.

Again I offer this..

From "the five reason your water heater overheats"..

#2..Testing the heating element will show if it is shorting or not. A shorted element is one of the reasons for overheating.

That is a common problem with hard water. Sediment is the culprit.



this how mine came out..

[kingcat]

Finally found what I wanted to find on it..Sediment causes this to happen.



Another explanation from an expert..

Most water supplies -- well water, rural water or city water -- have some dissolved minerals that are not removed during the purification process. Warming water sometimes causes the minerals to clump together, and they then settle to the bottom of the tank or coat the water heater elements. When the elements get coated, or when the lower element is buried under mineral sediment, it has to work harder to heat the water. Sometimes, the element overheats and the water absorbs this heat. The element typically fails and burns out not long after overheating. You can replace elements, and even clean out sediment.

And many thermostats do stick. But out of the seven or eight I've had to repair, all were the lower element. Some just quit, and a couple of times I had overheating problems that led to the elements demise. Sediment each of those times was the problem. 10 years is about the life of an element.
My first drummer and very good friend was a licensed plumber and I worked with him quite a lot as a young man. He advised me on the problem the first time as it seems our local water was notorious for it.
He is recently deceased.

[KentuckyWildcat]

You’ll have to give us a review of 5he tankless heater after you begin using it. I’ve been wondering about how they would do in a whole house situation.

My plumber claims this one will heat two houses. I'll let you know. Note that he does not sell the hot water heater so he does not have a reason to endorse it. I'll try to remember to post the model number.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I asked the plumber what shorted out. He said all of it lol

Said I was lucky. It even shorted out his tester

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[KeithKSR]

I asked the plumber what shorted out. He said all of it lol

Said I was lucky. It even shorted out his tester

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I shorted a meter once checking a water heater, the water heater was on a different circuit than my uncle thought it was and I started to check continuity on an element expecting there to be no juice on it.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I have hot water! Plumber got my tankless going today. I'm on a temporary tank until I get my big propane tank installed on the Dec 15 (hopefully).

He said he could not drain my tank because of too much sediment in the tank. So, I'm left to figure that out.

[dan_bgblue]

So, I'm left to figure that out

A little air pressure in the right places will do wonders.

I do mean a LITTLE air pressure, do not want to blow the top off your tank with 15 psi like I did to a 10,000 gallon tank once upon a time. Top of the tank sailed away for about 50 feet before crashing to the ground. Hot water tank pressure should withstand a couple hundred psi, but it does not take nearly that much pressure to force the water out of the tank.

Use the air pressure to force the water out the hole in the top of the tank.