Lindsey Graham committing voter fraud

[catmanjack]

Who BLM, that’s what they are posturing for.

Well, everyone knew it because it was expected....having been told by the left for the past 4 years the Russians infiltrated our 2016 elections set the stage for this. The left is reaping what it had sown for the last 4 yrs. it’s tit for tat and I’m afraid the next 4 years will be more of the same.
Should congress flip right in 2022, you’ll likely see an inquiry in what Biden knew and when he know it over Burisma and his son’s plum job for favors. There will be no healing, no forward progress.
It’s time for a 3rd party to emerge that is above this crap.....

[CitizenBBN]

I dont recall wanting to prosecute anyone, but I may have. I get ornery like that sometimes when I'm hurting.

Recounts are performed for that very reason. Mistakes such as the one in Georgia are often made, and a close enough election corrects such common errors. That's according to the republican Georgia SOS which I heard. That is not fraud.

This is, almost laughably, much different. And you also also have chosen not to address the obvious question. If he did this, what?
The rest has been tossed round and round in numerous threads.

But as for the rest, which United States presidential election has been won or overturned due to fraud? Are you saying that many have been?

Does it strike you funny that there is a need for a "recount" at all?

When you go to the grocery, do you check your bill when you're done item by item and ask for a recount? No? Why not?

B/c the process is efficient, everything is scanned, and is well monitored, b/c you're standing there watching it.

Yet with something as important as elections we find ballots in the trash from postal workers, we find ballots as if by magic when we "recount", we have in some states people who get to guess as to what a voter meant, etc.

The very fact that we have recounts and find these kinds of errors is the problem. Call it fraud or not, but it points to the failures in what should be one of the most secure systems in the US government. It is not.

As you said, such mistakes are "often made". That should be your worry, not that politicians will be politicians. The worry is that they have any power whatsoever to influence the system, which is due to those "often made" mistakes. Those are in fact loopholes in the system, failure points open to corruption.

[CitizenBBN]

Well, everyone knew it because it was expected....having been told by the left for the past 4 years the Russians infiltrated our 2016 elections set the stage for this. The left is reaping what it had sown for the last 4 yrs. it’s tit for tat and I’m afraid the next 4 years will be more of the same.
Should congress flip right in 2022, you’ll likely see an inquiry in what Biden knew and when he know it over Burisma and his son’s plum job for favors. There will be no healing, no forward progress.
It’s time for a 3rd party to emerge that is above this crap.....

thank you good sir.

The left has told people for 4 years that the 2016 election was rigged, that Trump wasn't legitimate.

Now they are furious at Trump for borrowing their playbook. In the end that's all he's done.


And yes, I have prayed for decades for a shift in the magnetic poles of our two party system so that a Libertarian party could emerge.

Now is really a perfect time. The extreme left has alienated a lot of moderate voters, esp. blue collar workers and middle America. Likewise the extremist part of the Trump base has left many moderate conservatives with no home.

A pitch for fiscal conservatism and social liberalism would have some traction. Out of our bedrooms and out of our wallets. With proper financing it could be pitched to younger voters as well, though the stranglehold of stupidity the academic world has on this country is a lot to overcome.

[ukpumacat]

Does it strike you funny that there is a need for a "recount" at all?

When you go to the grocery, do you check your bill when you're done item by item and ask for a recount? No? Why not?

B/c the process is efficient, everything is scanned, and is well monitored, b/c you're standing there watching it.

Yet with something as important as elections we find ballots in the trash from postal workers, we find ballots as if by magic when we "recount", we have in some states people who get to guess as to what a voter meant, etc.

The very fact that we have recounts and find these kinds of errors is the problem. Call it fraud or not, but it points to the failures in what should be one of the most secure systems in the US government. It is not.

As you said, such mistakes are "often made". That should be your worry, not that politicians will be politicians. The worry is that they have any power whatsoever to influence the system, which is due to those "often made" mistakes. Those are in fact loopholes in the system, failure points open to corruption.

1. I do check my bill every time I leave the grocery. And I can assure you there are often errors on there. Probably 30% of the time. Far far more than the errors found during a recount. And that’s with the “efficient process in place where everything is scanned and monitored”.
2. The SYSTEM works. Recounts. Audits. Canvassing. They work. Mistakes are always made. And the system is there to correct them. The entire reason we know the few mistakes and fraud that does happen is because the system works to catch them.

[ukpumacat]

And I just want to go back to this....

I was on this board in 2016 when Trump won. There was not ONE thread on here about voter fraud afterward. Not one. Nothing about the need for election changes. Nothing about fixing the system. None of it.
Where were all of you guys concerned with Georgia’s election in 2018 when Kemp barely won governor??
Or when Trump barely beat Hillary in Wisconsin and PA? Where was all the concern then? Why didn’t we have post after post back then about the need to fix this stuff?

Instead, this was Trump’s tweet about Hillary (there’s a tweet for everything):

“Crooked Hillary Clinton is the worst (and biggest) loser of all time. She just can’t stop, which is so good for the Republican Party. Hillary, get on with your life and give it another try in three years!”

Couldn’t say it better myself. Move the f on.

[kingcat]

And I just want to go back to this....

I was on this board in 2016 when Trump won. There was not ONE thread on here about voter fraud afterward. Not one. Nothing about the need for election changes. Nothing about fixing the system. None of it.
Instead, this was Trump’s tweet about Hillary (there’s a tweet for everything):

“Crooked Hillary Clinton is the worst (and biggest) loser of all time. She just can’t stop, which is so good for the Republican Party. Hillary, get on with your life and give it another try in three years!”

Yeah but..

[Doc]

thank you good sir.

The left has told people for 4 years that the 2016 election was rigged, that Trump wasn't legitimate.

Now they are furious at Trump for borrowing their playbook. In the end that's all he's done.


And yes, I have prayed for decades for a shift in the magnetic poles of our two party system so that a Libertarian party could emerge.

Now is really a perfect time. The extreme left has alienated a lot of moderate voters, esp. blue collar workers and middle America. Likewise the extremist part of the Trump base has left many moderate conservatives with no home.

A pitch for fiscal conservatism and social liberalism would have some traction. Out of our bedrooms and out of our wallets. With proper financing it could be pitched to younger voters as well, though the stranglehold of stupidity the academic world has on this country is a lot to overcome.

Its quite an odd shift that for the last 4 years the left has shouted about election interference but now our elections are secure, and they determined that in 10 days.

Trump and many other Republicans predicted this because it was set up to making cheating simple. Many Republicans, myself included, have long touted the need to insure election security. The left worries about voters being diseinfranchised but have no issue with thousands of ineligible votes being counted. Way I see it, every ineligible vote cast disenfranchises one valid legal vote. Liberals get in an uproar over simple qualifying proof, ie voter ID, to insure legal votes yet don't seem to give a rats ass about illegal ones. They would prefer THOUSANDS or tens of thousands of illegal votes be cast over to possible disenfranchisement of lazy asses who can't get an ID, and thus not able to vote. Of course that assumes that the reason they oppose voter ID is because of a racial aspect...because minorities lack the ability to get an ID, and not so they can fraudulently cast votes.

[CitizenBBN]

1. I do check my bill every time I leave the grocery. And I can assure you there are often errors on there. Probably 30% of the time. Far far more than the errors found during a recount. And that’s with the “efficient process in place where everything is scanned and monitored”.
2. The SYSTEM works. Recounts. Audits. Canvassing. They work. Mistakes are always made. And the system is there to correct them. The entire reason we know the few mistakes and fraud that does happen is because the system works to catch them.

That's an utter joke.

First off, if your grocery store error rate is 30% then California is more screwed up than even this board thinks. lol. The biggest error there should be pricing in the computer or coding of fruits/veggies, which is a non issue in comparison to ballots, which are the handling equivalent of canned goods as far as losing boxes of them. They should be insanely hard to misplace.

Second, this system is awful. If I sent a settlement to a consignor and then had to audit it again and do recounts and find items of theirs I forgot to pay them for, I'd be out of business in weeks. No real business can have that kind of pitiful inventory control.

And in a real business there are only two reasons to lose what amounts to boxes worth of material. Poor procedures or theft.

How many diamonds do you think a diamond wholesaler loses a year? Are they worth more than votes?

The system is a joke. It's full of ways to cheat, and states like California, with a one party supermajority, is looking to create as many new ones as possible.

And no, we have no idea how much fraud really exists. States don't even begin to do things like Deming style quality control checks on ballots that were received, at least none that I've seen. Part of that is due to privacy, but you sure wouldn't build a car with parts that aren't quality checked statistically, but we don't seem to have any formal statistical modelling used by states to verify quality. In fact there's a link here to a long analysis done in that vein that raises serious questions.

I liked your post on the common ground in the middle, but I'm not sure I believe it. If we cannot all agree on things that seem obvious to me, like the horrible election system we run or the insane level of propaganda and bias in all media, I'm not sure how we work to fix things.

I can tell you this much. The absurd handling and recounting and auditing we see in election processes would be a great Harvard business Review case in how not to structure a plant floor. It reminds me of a piece work manufacturing facility that hasn't computerized. In those places you build in "slack" in parts and time due to the inefficiencies of communication and inventory tracking. Of course if you can develop a good MRP and computerize and get some good procedures in place, you can eliminate the slack inventory costs and downtime on equipment.

one of the funnier notions is that a "recount" can find all the fraud and failures. You send the same people to the same places to do a physical inventory of the goods they miscounted the first time. Yeah, that will be reliable.

The next time we discuss police misconduct I'll site the internal review done by other police as proof there's no misconduct. Somehow I doubt you'll believe it.

The very fact that entire boxes of ballots can just be "found" is stunning to me. Lord, if I just "found" a client's fine jewelry after we conducted their sale, I'd be ruined. No system is perfect, but I know a crappy, outdated one subject to what is politely called "shrinkage" on company ledgers, i.e. theft and fraud, when I see one.

And that's just their internal process. That doesn't even count the postal worker dumping a sack of ballots or harvesters going to nursing homes and "assisting" some half blind people in filling out their ballots, people voting with no ID, etc.

[CitizenBBN]

Its quite an odd shift that for the last 4 years the left has shouted about election interference but now our elections are secure, and they determined that in 10 days.

Trump and many other Republicans predicted this because it was set up to making cheating simple. Many Republicans, myself included, have long touted the need to insure election security. The left worries about voters being diseinfranchised but have no issue with thousands of ineligible votes being counted. Way I see it, every ineligible vote cast disenfranchises one valid legal vote. Liberals get in an uproar over simple qualifying proof, ie voter ID, to insure legal votes yet don't seem to give a rats ass about illegal ones. They would prefer THOUSANDS or tens of thousands of illegal votes be cast over to possible disenfranchisement of lazy ass who can't get an ID, who would not being able to vote. Of course that assumes that the reason they oppose voter ID is because of a racial aspect...because minorities lack the ability to get an ID, and not so they can fraudulently cast votes.

I have a simple test for anyone on this issue who defends the current system or wants any of the non-ID based systems.

Put your money where your mouth is. Repeal the Patriot Act, and let people buy plane tickets at the counter with no ID, no xray machines.

If you're OK being on those planes then you're at least honest. Otherwise you're a hypocrite, b/c that's the way we operate our election system in many states.

It really is that simple. If you think we should require ID to fly or enter a government building or rent a car or buy fertilizer, then you should surely want one for something as important as voting. If not then you're full of it IMO. that's harsh, but it's just too easy to find so many situations where we all agree an action needs a high level of security and confidence, but apparently electing our representatives isn't one of those actions.

[ukpumacat]

Oh, I think many things need to change, be updated and be done better. I am all for that.

As I said above, where was all this "concern" with the election process in 2016? Or 2018? There was none. Nada. Zilch on this board.

When Hillary lost, you won't find one post from me saying the election was rigged or that fraud cost her. Or in 2018.

Hillary lost because she was a terrible candidate. Not because Trump cheated.

And Trump lost because he was a terrible President. Not because Biden cheated.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, I think many things need to change, be updated and be done better. I am all for that.

As I said above, where was all this "concern" with the election process in 2016? Or 2018? There was none. Nada. Zilch on this board.

When Hillary lost, you won't find one post from me saying the election was rigged or that fraud cost her. Or in 2018.

Hillary lost because she was a terrible candidate. Not because Trump cheated.

And Trump lost because he was a terrible President. Not because Biden cheated.

I think there was cheating in every election since the 1950s that on average favored Democrats.

Why? B/c I think there is cheating in every election, and Democrats have a stronger grassroots organization to exploit it. Nixon nearly contested West Virginia against Kennedy, we know how Chicago was run, this goes back a long way. I think the GOP would take full advantage if they could, it's just not as in their favor for a few reasons.

that being said Trump still could have won if he wasn't an incomparable ass, even with Covid. Without covid and he's not an ass he walks through this election. He's just not a likable guy and shows no qualities of leadership to bring people to him.

Likewise Hillary was simply unlikable.

But I have no doubt there is fraud in the system. I'm just not sure how much. But if the voter roles and fraud are off by only 1% that's still a lot of bad votes. With 140,000,000 that's still 1.4 million votes. There are a few estimates that the error rate in voter roles may be 2 or 3%, now that's enough to swing a national election much less a close state race.

[ukpumacat]

But I have no doubt there is fraud in the system. I'm just not sure how much. But if the voter roles and fraud are off by only 1% that's still a lot of bad votes. With 140,000,000 that's still 1.4 million votes. There are a few estimates that the error rate in voter roles may be 2 or 3%, now that's enough to swing a national election much less a close state race.

Parties change. Dems have as well. But there was a time (seems like forever ago) when the Republican Party was all about limited spending, balanced budgets, lowering the National debt and against frivolous lawsuits. Trump is the opposite of all of those things.

[kingcat]

I voted.

This is the greatest country in the world. To think that me, as insignificant as I am, had my vote count the same as any big wig politician or multi-billionaire the nation. Amazing!

Shame on you Lindsey!

[CitizenBBN]

Parties change. Dems have as well. But there was a time (seems like forever ago) when the Republican Party was all about limited spending, balanced budgets, lowering the National debt and against frivolous lawsuits. Trump is the opposite of all of those things.

Are you waiting for me to disagree with you? I've railed on the GOP establishment for abandoning conservative principles on here since the second Bush administration, and I've railed on them overall since Bush I. I wanted Perot to win simply to force the GOP to reestablish itself, and I rail against elitism here in all its forms including the GOP form which is typified not just by Trump and Mitch but by Romney and McCain and all the others who have been in Washington so long they forgot what it is to live like the rest of us.

I'm not a Republican. At least not in any "my team" kind of way. My team is the Founding Fathers. I follow their vision and believe in individual liberty.

The GOP and even Trump happen to be closer to that ideal than the Democrats, who in their current form have no concern for equality before the law at all, and no worries about infringing on any individual liberty they find inconvenient to the greater good, but that certainly doesn't mean the GOP or Trump is close to what I think we should be doing.

What that has to do with the obvious efforts to build fraud into the election system I have no idea. When you want people to be able to vote without having an ID or being checked on voter rolls at all, that's beyond obvious what you are trying to do. It doesn't suppress anyone's voting rights to require they have a basic ID any more than it infringes on their freedom of association to require them to have one to get a plane ticket or rent a vehicle.

Allowing political operatives to collect physical ballots, allowing people to vote without any verification they are legally able to vote, using primitive systems for balloting that haven't been changed in a century are all ways to encourage fraud. How much they have managed to create I don't know, but I know a scam when I see one.

[ukpumacat]

Are you waiting for me to disagree with you? I've railed on the GOP establishment for abandoning conservative principles on here since the second Bush administration, and I've railed on them overall since Bush I. I wanted Perot to win simply to force the GOP to reestablish itself, and I rail against elitism here in all its forms including the GOP form which is typified not just by Trump and Mitch but by Romney and McCain and all the others who have been in Washington so long they forgot what it is to live like the rest of us.

I'm not a Republican. At least not in any "my team" kind of way. My team is the Founding Fathers. I follow their vision and believe in individual liberty.

The GOP and even Trump happen to be closer to that ideal than the Democrats, who in their current form have no concern for equality before the law at all, and no worries about infringing on any individual liberty they find inconvenient to the greater good, but that certainly doesn't mean the GOP or Trump is close to what I think we should be doing.

What that has to do with the obvious efforts to build fraud into the election system I have no idea. When you want people to be able to vote without having an ID or being checked on voter rolls at all, that's beyond obvious what you are trying to do. It doesn't suppress anyone's voting rights to require they have a basic ID any more than it infringes on their freedom of association to require them to have one to get a plane ticket or rent a vehicle.

Allowing political operatives to collect physical ballots, allowing people to vote without any verification they are legally able to vote, using primitive systems for balloting that haven't been changed in a century are all ways to encourage fraud. How much they have managed to create I don't know, but I know a scam when I see one.

Haha. This was my bad. Posted it on the wrong thread.

[Doc]

Oh, I think many things need to change, be updated and be done better. I am all for that.

As I said above, where was all this "concern" with the election process in 2016? Or 2018? There was none. Nada. Zilch on this board.

When Hillary lost, you won't find one post from me saying the election was rigged or that fraud cost her. Or in 2018.

Hillary lost because she was a terrible candidate. Not because Trump cheated.

And Trump lost because he was a terrible President. Not because Biden cheated.

Many on here posted fraud concerns in every one of the last 4-5 elections. And the reply was always voter fraud does not happen.

Were are all the leftist who cried about election interference for the last 4 years? Or does is that not a concern if your candidate wins? See, its like a wild west bar door...it swings both ways

[ukpumacat]

Many on here posted fraud concerns in every one of the last 4-5 elections. And the reply was always voter fraud does not happen.

Were are all the leftist who cried about election interference for the last 4 years? Or does is that not a concern if your candidate wins? See, its like a wild west bar door...it swings both ways

I can't speak for you. And I can't speak for other "leftist". But you will not find a post from me on here about election interference.

And once again...it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I do think suppression happens. I do think interference happens. I do think fraud happens. I do think mistakes happen.
I do not think any of them are the reasons Trump lost.
I am all for fixing them.
But its disingenuous to pretend that Trump cares about any of those things. He doesn't. He cares about winning and he lost. This is about Trump.
For you, it might not be. But you aren't the President with millions of twitter followers spreading outright lies.

[Doc]

Well apparently interference did not happen this year. Are you going to credit Trump for that? All that interference 4 years ago when Obama was President, where he told Russia to "cut it out" and it gave Trump the election according to the left. Fast Forward 4 years under a Trump administration yields zero foreign interference. Bet you are glad Trump addressed that, huh?

[ukpumacat]

Well apparently interference did not happen this year. Are you going to credit Trump for that? All that interference 4 years ago when Obama was President, where he told Russia to "cut it out" and it gave Trump the election according to the left. Fast Forward 4 years under a Trump administration yields zero foreign interference. Bet you are glad Trump addressed that, huh?

We know there was foreign interference this year. His head of NSA and the FBI told us Iran, Russia and China were doing just that. 4 years ago, most of that foreign interference happened on social media. They didn't "Change votes". They interfered by spreading misinformation (or worse). That happened this election as well.
Thankfully, Facebook and Twitter did not allow it to happen nearly to the same degree.
Its not why Hillary lost in 2016.
And its not why Trump lost in 2020.

Back to the OP....here is what I will give Trump absolute credit for:
He is very savvy at constantly forcing fellow Republicans to choose between
1. Doing his bidding and therefore remaining a Republican-in-good-standing in GOP circles
Or
2. Acting according to normal democratic values, but losing Republican-in-good-standing status.

Graham chose #1. So are most Republicans. Sasse chose #2 and won anyways. But Trump is an absolute expert at forcing the choice.

[ukpumacat]

Well apparently interference did not happen this year. Are you going to credit Trump for that? All that interference 4 years ago when Obama was President, where he told Russia to "cut it out" and it gave Trump the election according to the left. Fast Forward 4 years under a Trump administration yields zero foreign interference. Bet you are glad Trump addressed that, huh?

Trump's lawyer just said that China, Venezuela and Cuba interfered in this election to throw it for Biden.

[CitizenBBN]

Trump's lawyer just said that China, Venezuela and Cuba interfered in this election to throw it for Biden.

China did interfere, and it was reportedly to help Biden. That much is true per official reports. Not sure about the others.

Whether that interference is really significant is debatable. I'm far more concerned about the day to day influence foreign nations have in Washington through their agents and lobbyists.

[goodycat]

Trump's lawyer just said that China, Venezuela and Cuba interfered in this election to throw it for Biden.

But did Trump take some nonsense oppo research, send it to the FBI, have the FBI (and likely the CIA) conduct a clandestine investigation of the Biden campaign while the presidential campaign was still ongoing, use confidential informants against the Biden campaign also while the presidential campaign was still ongoing, get a secret court to authorize spying on a completely innocent American citizen based upon said nonsense oppo research because that person dared to work with the Biden campaign, and then work with the FBI director and the Assistant Attorney General to set up a framework to continue the clandestine investigation after Biden takes office without telling Biden who was the duly elected president? Will officials who worked for him leak information classified at the highest level to the press to undermine the incoming Biden administration and create a completely false narrative that dominates the news and severely hampers the incoming administration for more than two and a half years?

Unless and until the answers to those questions are yes, all complaints by democrats about what is happening now are completely unserious. The outgoing Obama administration and their holdovers in government did everything they could to undermine and, if possible, undo the outcome of the 2016 election. It's a little difficult to take shut up and concede seriously from the Russia, Russia, Russia, resistance crowd.

[ukpumacat]

It's a little difficult to take shut up and concede seriously from the Russia, Russia, Russia, resistance crowd.

If you have spent much time on this board you would know that I am not and never was one of that crowd. Not that it matters much either way.

[goodycat]

If you have spent much time on this board you would know that I am not and never was one of that crowd. Not that it matters much either way.

I was speaking more generally, not really specifically about you. That's why I referenced democrats in general in my comments. I didn't intend to imply what your views are one way or the other.

[ukpumacat]

I was speaking more generally, not really specifically about you. That's why I referenced democrats in general in my comments. I didn't intend to imply what your views are one way or the other.

No worries...just wanted to state it again. Ha

[Doc]

Trump's lawyer just said that China, Venezuela and Cuba interfered in this election to throw it for Biden.

China just expecting return on their investment