Thoughts On Debate?

[CitizenBBN]

Truthfully the dream scenario for conservatives is for Trump to lose but to somehow hold the Senate. that prevents Biden from doing too much damage, and the filibuster stays intact, and Trump can leave the GOP stage.

I doubt the GOP will learn the lesson of his success, but it may rub off on them some, and maybe some of the Romney's of the world will still be on the outs, but I doubt it.

It doesn't look good for the Senate, but it's possible.

[Basket Case]

He also told white supremacist's to "stand back" and "stand by".. That was a 'biggy imho..

“Trump basically said to go **** them up! “This makes me so happy.”..Proud Boys leader Joe Biggs

Typical Left slandering. Get Southern Poverty Law to call them extremist (which is every group right of center) and all of the press will brand them racist/extremist forever.

The Tea party was certainly not racist and the slandering started until everyone had to disavow it.

Maybe there are some racists in the organization (just like there are certainly some in BLM) but the group specifically says they are not.


From the Proud Boys website:

Proud Boys‘ values center on the following tenets:

Minimal Government
Maximum Freedom
Anti-Political Correctness
Anti-Drug War
Closed Borders
Anti-Racial Guilt
Anti-Racism
Pro-Free Speech (1st Amendment)
Pro-Gun Rights (2nd Amendment)
Glorifying the Entrepreneur
Venerating the Housewife
Reinstating a Spirit of Western Chauvinism

[Basket Case]

Truthfully the dream scenario for conservatives is for Trump to lose but to somehow hold the Senate. that prevents Biden from doing too much damage, and the filibuster stays intact, and Trump can leave the GOP stage.

I agree with this 100%. A Biden win and Senate flip will be a nightmare. I prefer a divided govt.

[KeithKSR]

Rasmussen (the most right leaning pollster) has Biden up by 8 today.

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...se_watch_sep30

It will probably bounce back to a close race in the next week or so, lots of the flip was over the Dems acting like it was a crime to nominate Amy Coney Barrett to SCOTUS.

[KeithKSR]

If you (we) take off all political hats and just focus on numbers...its all about Pennsylvania. You can throw the national numbers out and just focus on a few states. But, PA is the big one.

Trump has to win Pennsylvania (and that is if he wins Ohio, Florida and North Carolina) to win. Biden does as well.

The last 5 polls out of PA have Biden up 9, 5, 7, 9 and 4 (in that order). Trump has to improve there or he's toast. He won there in 2016 by a half % point against a very unpopular candidate. Biden is popular in PA as he's from there. I expect he wins.

From a Biden perspective, they will push hard in Ohio and Florida even though they don't need to win either one to win. Why? Because both have Republican Governors and Trump has publicly said he trusts those states for mail in ballots. Also, those two states count mail ins before the election and so will have concrete numbers on election night (while other states will take days to count since their rules say they have to be postmarked by Election Day). If Biden wins either, even other Republicans will come out and say Trump lost.

Polls are only as good as the metrics they use and using a metric for GOP turnout 18% lower than the 2016 turnout isn’t going to be accurate.

[KeithKSR]

Typical Left slandering. Get Southern Poverty Law to call them extremist (which is every group right of center) and all of the press will brand them racist/extremist forever.

The Tea party was certainly not racist and the slandering started until everyone had to disavow it.

Maybe there are some racists in the organization (just like there are certainly some in BLM) but the group specifically says they are not.


From the Proud Boys website:

Proud Boys‘ values center on the following tenets:

Minimal Government
Maximum Freedom
Anti-Political Correctness
Anti-Drug War
Closed Borders
Anti-Racial Guilt
Anti-Racism
Pro-Free Speech (1st Amendment)
Pro-Gun Rights (2nd Amendment)
Glorifying the Entrepreneur
Venerating the Housewife
Reinstating a Spirit of Western Chauvinism

The Proud Boys rallied in support of Antifa in Portland last weekend. I don’t see how any knowledgeable person could label them as white supremacists.

Trump on the KKK and Antifa just a few days ago: https://www.koin.com/news/trump-vows...rorist-groups/

[Doc]

I love the racist angle. Joe Biden, who talked of the racial jungle, said you needed an Indian accent to work at 7-11, who created and passed a bill that disproportionaly put thousands blacks in jail, his you aint black comment, his lack of diversity in black communities, the friend and mentor of KKKleader Robert Byrd (his words)...to name a few...and he has the balls to call Trump a racist, and the left follows lock step

[KeithKSR]

I love the racist angle. Joe Biden, who talked of the racial jungle, said you needed an Indian accent to work at 7-11, who created and passed a bill that disproportionaly put thousands blacks in jail, his you aint black comment, his lack of diversity in black communities, the friend and mentor of KKKleader Robert Byrd (his words)...to name a few...and he has the balls to call Trump a racist, and the left follows lock step

The left and their media always follow lock step.

[UKRxman93]

I love the racist angle. Joe Biden, who talked of the racial jungle, said you needed an Indian accent to work at 7-11, who created and passed a bill that disproportionaly put thousands blacks in jail, his you aint black comment, his lack of diversity in black communities, the friend and mentor of KKKleader Robert Byrd (his words)...to name a few...and he has the balls to call Trump a racist, and the left follows lock step

It’s amazing how what they accuse others of doing is in fact the very things they are actually doing.

[CitizenBBN]

I love the racist angle. Joe Biden, who talked of the racial jungle, said you needed an Indian accent to work at 7-11, who created and passed a bill that disproportionaly put thousands blacks in jail, his you aint black comment, his lack of diversity in black communities, the friend and mentor of KKKleader Robert Byrd (his words)...to name a few...and he has the balls to call Trump a racist, and the left follows lock step

Don't forget that he also helped Jessie Helms block federally mandated busing. After he found out his vastly white constituents in Delaware didn't want busing.

[Doc]

Don't forget that he also helped Jessie Helms block federally mandated busing. After he found out his vastly white constituents in Delaware didn't want busing.

That was when he made the comment about not wanting his kids in a racial jungle. Talk about "dog whistles"!

[CitizenBBN]

That was when he made the comment about not wanting his kids in a racial jungle. Talk about "dog whistles"!

I've linked a really good article on it, I think from very left Politico, detailing how he basically bailed out Jessie Helms and blocked it, b/c he went back to his constituents and found out that they didn't want integration.

He's a pure politician. He has no beliefs other than staying in power. When being tough on crime was popular he worked with Clinton to put forward the crime bill that locked up huge numbers of minorities on relatively minor drug offenses, and yet still claims to be such a strong supporter of minority causes. Where was he for 8 years with Obama while people complained about that law? Where was his policy initiative to address it?

It's his mission in life to stay elected, not to actually accomplish anything.

[kingcat]

Just so everyone knows, I deleted my comments only because I don’t want to appear to argue with my friends. And anytime I can avoid that from now on I’ll try to do that.
Disagreement is taken the wrong way all too often anymore. And this type of stuff just isn’t that important in reality. Debates are to help form an opinion, and each opinion should be respected and highly valued. Our vote is all that matters and I am for everyone voting their conscience regardless of what the vote is.

Just didn’t want anyone to think I was mad or being defensive in any way. It’s not politics as usual anymore and it’s hard to discuss for everyone unless it is the appropriate forum for ones own views. Thats the state of things almost everywhere not just here.

[Doc]

I wish Trump spent less time interrupting. By doing so he didn't give Joe time to stick his foot in his mouth. I'm betting next debate Trump gives Joe more uninterrupted time.

[Basket Case]

Just so everyone knows, I deleted my comments only because I don’t want to appear to argue with my friends. And anytime I can avoid that from now on I’ll try to do that.
Disagreement is taken the wrong way all too often anymore. And this type of stuff just isn’t that important in reality. Debates are to help form an opinion, and each opinion should be respected and highly valued. Our vote is all that matters and I am for everyone voting their conscience regardless of what the vote is.

Just didn’t want anyone to think I was mad or being defensive in any way. It’s not politics as usual anymore and it’s hard to discuss for everyone unless it is the appropriate forum for ones own views. Thats the state of things almost everywhere not just here.

I appreciate that, and by your delivery in your posts, you certainly seem like a fair and good guy (although maybe misguided politically ). I feel the same way but I realize sometimes my posts will be interpreted as confrontational. It's somewhat the nature of non personal communication.

Btw, I don't condone Trumps answer, I just dont think it is fair to smear that group as white supremacists. They claim they are not, to me their actions suggest they are not, and the evidence is lacking to call them white supremacists. It's a common smear tactic of the left and once it starts, it sticks.

[KeithKSR]

I wish Trump spent less time interrupting. By doing so he didn't give Joe time to stick his foot in his mouth. I'm betting next debate Trump gives Joe more uninterrupted time.

That was a big mistake by Trump, IMO.

[CitizenBBN]

That was a big mistake by Trump, IMO.

He's a horrible debater. Really he's had about 4-5 good speeches/events in his entire run, when he calms down, takes a Valium and tries to project being Presidential.

He seems convinced people want the New York roughhouser, the put down artist, the Apprentice guy, and he couldn't be more wrong.

He could have sailed to a 2nd term even with Covid if he had just stopped with the dumbassery and stayed on message during his term. Even the media blitz and Trump Derangement Syndrome wouldn't have worked if he just worked on his personality some.

He's his own worst enemy more than any elected official I can recall.

[ukpumacat]

Btw, I don't condone Trumps answer, I just dont think it is fair to smear that group as white supremacists. They claim they are not, to me their actions suggest they are not, and the evidence is lacking to call them white supremacists. It's a common smear tactic of the left and once it starts, it sticks.

Lindsey Graham posted on twitter that they are a "racist organization antithetical to American ideals".

[ukpumacat]

He's a horrible debater. Really he's had about 4-5 good speeches/events in his entire run, when he calms down, takes a Valium and tries to project being Presidential.

He seems convinced people want the New York roughhouser, the put down artist, the Apprentice guy, and he couldn't be more wrong.

He could have sailed to a 2nd term even with Covid if he had just stopped with the dumbassery and stayed on message during his term. Even the media blitz and Trump Derangement Syndrome wouldn't have worked if he just worked on his personality some.

He's his own worst enemy more than any elected official I can recall.

Agreed.

[kingcat]

I appreciate that, and by your delivery in your posts, you certainly seem like a fair and good guy (although maybe misguided politically ). I feel the same way but I realize sometimes my posts will be interpreted as confrontational. It's somewhat the nature of non personal communication.

Btw, I don't condone Trumps answer, I just dont think it is fair to smear that group as white supremacists. They claim they are not, to me their actions suggest they are not, and the evidence is lacking to call them white supremacists. It's a common smear tactic of the left and once it starts, it sticks.

Ive had no problem with any response to what i believe in this thread, or any other of late. I guess if you can imagine a party where one guy goes against the grain with everything that is discussed, proposed, or eaten and wants it his or her way and wont shut up about it. Thats the way Im concerned it appears at times.

Like a vegetarian, non drinking jazz lover in shorts and flip flops at an indoor BBQ/pony kegger or the like.

[bigsky]

SPLC is er, um, well, a good example of what it claims to be against.

[CitizenBBN]

Agreed.

The thing is he's not a bad actor. If he thought that was the way to go I think he could probably pull it off, with some missteps and reverting to the New York tough guy here and there. But he could probably have generally been "Presidential" and if he had this isn't even a discussion. He'd have big negatives, but enough people who wouldn't want to change directions in troubled times, they would have some basic faith in him.

But he's so erratic, so over the top, they don't feel like we're on a path currently, so changing is easier.

[Padukacat]

Listened to the rage book on our way to Hilton head today. Trump is just an awful human, and I agree with what most have said on both sides in this thread. He just can’t get past himself and being a total damn narcissist. The guys is such a loose cannon I’m not sure he needs to be in office. Is there a big slant to Woodward’s book? I tried to look at opinions on him and seems to get a fair shake. I’m pretty new to even considering listening to politics, but that book is very educational. What always has struck me is this, why do people so blindly and desperately follow trump but at the same time admit he is horrible? We all agree there. I mean he chose some really seemingly high quality people for his cabinet positions who seem to be sharp successful and American through and through, and then ran them into the ground by undermining their jobs with out of the blue decisions that get revealed on Twitter? I mean come on guys I know Biden isn’t the answer and I’m cool with going against the grain of old politics and I freaking hate this crying on racism movement that is the least of the black communities problem, but this guy is a disaster. I just don’t know what the answer is, and I’ll admit I don’t have a lot of political knowledge but I do typically feel confident with my reads on people and situations.

[catmanjack]

I myself have just started to follow politics,
What caught my attention is the strong push by the Democrats for a socialist government and constantly wanting to raise taxes, the tearing down of the constitution and radical push in Democratic run cities to defund the police.
Yes Trump is what appears to be a bad person on the surface but he is a true American.
One huge thing going against him is this media driven narrative that hates him.
Democrats seem to support many groups that go against my beliefs and some like BLM are nothing but domestic terrorist groups.
It’s the American values and not Trump that I am voting Republican.

[Padukacat]

I myself have just started to follow politics,
What caught my attention is the strong push by the Democrats for a socialist government and constantly wanting to raise taxes, the tearing down of the constitution and radical push in Democratic run cities to defund the police.
Yes Trump is what appears to be a bad person on the surface but he is a true American.
One huge thing going against him is this media driven narrative that hates him.
Democrats seem to support many groups that go against my beliefs and some like BLM are nothing but domestic terrorist groups.
It’s the American values and not Trump that I am voting Republican.

Yep, and this has always been my idea as well. I do need to look at the dems harder because all I hear about is trump in the media. So much noise you have to wade through it.

[Doc]

Listened to the rage book on our way to Hilton head today. Trump is just an awful human, and I agree with what most have said on both sides in this thread. He just can’t get past himself and being a total damn narcissist. The guys is such a loose cannon I’m not sure he needs to be in office. Is there a big slant to Woodward’s book? I tried to look at opinions on him and seems to get a fair shake. I’m pretty new to even considering listening to politics, but that book is very educational. What always has struck me is this, why do people so blindly and desperately follow trump but at the same time admit he is horrible? We all agree there. I mean he chose some really seemingly high quality people for his cabinet positions who seem to be sharp successful and American through and through, and then ran them into the ground by undermining their jobs with out of the blue decisions that get revealed on Twitter? I mean come on guys I know Biden isn’t the answer and I’m cool with going against the grain of old politics and I freaking hate this crying on racism movement that is the least of the black communities problem, but this guy is a disaster. I just don’t know what the answer is, and I’ll admit I don’t have a lot of political knowledge but I do typically feel confident with my reads on people and situations.

I am not sure I would label him an "awful human". He is a bombastic petulant blowhard (aka a typical New Yorker). He is portrayed as an awful human, and in part that is his own doing. Unfortunately the good things he has done are seldom presented.

But for me, I only care about POLICY. What he says means little, but what he does says plenty. Sort of the antithesis of Obama, who by appearances was a great guy but what he did not so much. I don't like that Trump called Rosie a fat pig but I like that he cut taxes. I don't like that he made fun of John McCain but I like that he passed justice reform. I could go on but no need to.

But Trumps appeal to many is that he is not a politician. Never was, does not claim to be and has no desire to be one. I for one am tired of the hypocrisy of our government. Say one thing, do another. Accuse the opposition of something that you are doing and have been doing for decades. Do anything at all costs for power and money, even if its to the detriment of the country.

You feel he is a loose cannon. Could you please expand on that? What has he done that merits that label? Justice reform? Tax Cuts? Deregulation? Easing tensions with N Korea? Requiring cities follow the laws passed by congress rather than exempting themselves by being "Sanctuary Cities"? Trying to enforce our borders? In my book a loose cannon would be somebody who spies on their political opponents by using and deceiving government agencies to do so.

Many people are sick an tired of "politics as usual" where our freedoms and choices are bartered out to the highest bidder. Many want the 3 branches of government to work together to solve the problems. Trump ran on draining the Washington Swamp, and was elected to do so. Washington's response was to "get him". 4 years of trying to nullify the election has worn thin. I don't like Trump, probably wouldn't invite him to my house or share a brew with him. However what I will do is take advantage of his actions and accomplishments, and overlook his petulance. Because he isn't the worse option. A worse option is letting the swamp continue to grow at the citizens expense.

[CitizenBBN]

Listened to the rage book on our way to Hilton head today. Trump is just an awful human, and I agree with what most have said on both sides in this thread. He just can’t get past himself and being a total damn narcissist. The guys is such a loose cannon I’m not sure he needs to be in office. Is there a big slant to Woodward’s book? I tried to look at opinions on him and seems to get a fair shake. I’m pretty new to even considering listening to politics, but that book is very educational. What always has struck me is this, why do people so blindly and desperately follow trump but at the same time admit he is horrible? We all agree there. I mean he chose some really seemingly high quality people for his cabinet positions who seem to be sharp successful and American through and through, and then ran them into the ground by undermining their jobs with out of the blue decisions that get revealed on Twitter? I mean come on guys I know Biden isn’t the answer and I’m cool with going against the grain of old politics and I freaking hate this crying on racism movement that is the least of the black communities problem, but this guy is a disaster. I just don’t know what the answer is, and I’ll admit I don’t have a lot of political knowledge but I do typically feel confident with my reads on people and situations.

I'm sure Trump is a complete ass to work for, have said it from the start.

Now is he evil as many think? No, he isn't. He's pompous, boorish, a narcissist, no doubt, but that describes a lot of powerful New Yorkers. But he's not evil, he's not a Russian Double Knot Spy, etc.

And in 4 years we've had to put up with his being an ass all the time, but he hasn't done anything to undermine the nation or put us in harm's way, and he's actually accomplished some very positive things. I think he's done so in spite of his personality and not because of it, which is his key failing in understanding he's actually the one holding himself back, but the results have still been a net positive.

Biden is I'm sure a much nicer person to work with, but he's also a pure politician, so his only goal is to be elected. he doesn't BELIEVE in anything in particular, which you can see when you look at the arc of his career.

And Biden will usher in more voice for the true threat to this nation, which is a radical leftist movement that condemns free speech and expression, free markets and American exceptionalism.

So the choice is to put up with a man whose tweets are offensive and who will run through staff like water, but who has in 4 years generally done good things and will definitely stay the course on free speech (he's pushing to defend it on campuses, etc. as a matter of policy), free markets and a basic belief that America is a good nation versus an evil one, or a man who I'm sure is much nicer but who is also a stuffed shirt who has no direction, may not be all there, and who will help give rise to the most radical elements of the Left that truly endanger us.

It's an ugly choice, but most choices for POTUS are ugly choices, esp. for a Libertarian. Reagan was the last choice I actually liked, and prior to that, though I couldn't have voted obviously, I think you'd have to go back to maybe Eisenhower to find someone truly positive.

Trump is an ass, Biden is a clown. In the end neither should be running the free world, so for me it comes down to what policies will they pursue? Trump has put judges on the bench who believe in interpreting the law and not making it, he's improved the strength of NATO and our hegemony in the Middle East and Eastern Europe, and he's the first POTUS since the 1950s to see China as the real threat to American superiority in the world.

I had hoped the office would temper Trump's personality some, but it hasn't, but looking at the last 4 years I see more of the issues being people losing their minds over him than actual policies he's pursued. I still have yet to be presented one single thing he's done that I think undermines our nation in any way that isn't simply a policy disagreement.

He's embarrassing, but it's better than ending the senate filibuster, moving further towards real socialism, pursuing the Green New Deal, enacting hate speech laws, a $15 minimum wage, or any other number of things Biden has both endorsed and then distanced himself from depending on what best suited him that month.

For me it's an easy choice, if a distasteful one.

I'd prefer the rise of a true Libertarian party, one that believes in individual liberty and staying out of people's business, but while I was optimistic that might happen when I was 20 and even 30, now I see this as a slow death spiral for the American Experiment, as we descend into socialism and the euphemistic "social justice" which is just a polite term for some lite version of Marxism where we take from each according to ability and give to each according to need, with all of that determined by some state agency.

[CitizenBBN]

And fwiw I imagine most people who serve in the Trump White House do so out of a desire to temper him and try to pursue what is best for America, and only put up with Trump for as long as they can in order to accomplish those broader goals. I doubt seriously if he is respected.

But, despite it being horribly dysfunctional, it seems to be holding up, and Trump's behavior hasn't become more than an embarrassment at times. Not good, but better than Hillary's deep corruption, or Biden's family corruption, or in this case Biden's purely political view of the world.

Despite his obvious personality issues, he's actually generally stayed the course on his campaign promises, so if that's what one wants he's generally delivered, at least as well or better than most any other POTUS.

And his work in the Middle East is truly unsung, b/c he's actually made some strides there. I'm sure the credit for all the water carrying goes to others, but at least he's pursued that direction.

[KeithKSR]

An awful lot of the perceived dysfunction of the White House seems to come from those who were on the inside that sought to steer Trump in ways to achieve their own goals. From all accounts Trump is one of these guys that wants dissenting opinions and will weigh those opinions and make the final decisions. Those who have become disenchanted outsiders are those who couldn’t manage not getting their way, like Bolton, Mattis, Kelly, etc., warhawks that thought they could mold a President who was intent on peace.

Look at all the RINOs who dislike Trump, they do so because he isn’t controlled by the Swamp, like most presidents have been.

When was the last time we heard news reports about Isis? What about North Korean missiles?Trump is trying to draw down troop numbers all around the world. The a Trump doctrine sure seems like it is making the world safer.

[dan_bgblue]

China infiltrates US – Hunter Biden, other examples show extent of the problem