https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ge%2Fstory-ans
The use of DHS personnel is damaging our democracy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ge%2Fstory-ans
The use of DHS personnel is damaging our democracy.
All those who think federal troops should only be used when state or local govt requests them raise your hand...
Is a subscription site and you couldn't get me to pay for something I can get for free with a bucket out of a port-a-potty
However even the lowly people of Seattle and Portland have the right to protection, and if the city won't do it, and the state won't do it then it falls under the federal government to do it. Funny how the left had no issues when the last administration stepped in with Ferguson, etc.... but Trump does and suddenly it is an issue.
Add that they waited until there was vandalism of a federal building.
I wonder if there was a mob attacking your office and the Washington DC cops were told to ignore it and do nothing while windows were broken and the building trashed, if you will feel the same. For some reason I doubt it.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
The President is constitutionally bound to enforce the law and the FBI, DHS, ICE, NPS, Secret Service, are just part of the group of Federal law enforcement agencies the President commands to enforce the law. He is under no obligation to accede to opinions of state or local officials when deciding how and when to take action to enforce the laws of the nation. He definitely does not have to wait for those officials to plead for his help before stepping in to enforce the law.Originally Posted by UKHistory
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
A slippery slope..
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Democrats didnt have an issue with the feds coming in in the 60's for civil rights. Dems didn't have an issue with WACO, or Elian Gonzolez when a democrat called in the feds, and those were not widespread violence. No issue with their actions in Ferguson.
See, the real reason for the opposition is clear. It is not over reach or slippery slope. It is because it is an action by this President. Fauxscuses don't hold after 3 1/2 years of the left objecting to everything he does.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I did. And still do. This problem of Federal troops being used in Unconstitutional ways didn't begin and won't end with Trump. But he has a flare for authoritarianism.
I have no issue with DHS securing government buildings. This includes entrances, side walks, key streets including exit/entrance ramps to high ways. I have needed their assistance in fact more than once over the past couple of years.
What I have a concern is with DHS roving through a community in unmarked vehicles dressed as soldiers instead of law enforcement arresting people under dubious circumstances.
The mission creep of DHS under a different administration would be condemned by most of us on this board.
I am against it. Unless the State leadership agrees with or requests such use. And any such action must be authorized by Congress, regardless.
And some Dems did have an issue with WACO.
Consistency is a two way street by the way. Too much "they", "them", "we" and "us" being used of late by citizens of the United States.
Last edited by kingcat; 07-22-2020 at 02:16 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
So if the south goes back to Jim Crow you're all good with it?A slippery slope..
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I am against it. Unless the State leadership agrees with or request such use. And any use must be authorized by Congress, regardless.
Regardless, I am a bit surprised at the lack of consistency from those who I thought were strong advocates for State rights.
Last edited by kingcat; 07-22-2020 at 02:31 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Where were you when George Wallace needed the backup? lol
There's simply no historical support for the position.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Would this administration or someone like Trump use law enforcement to protect the rights of citizens? There are questions of jurisdiction. How and when to use Federal forces. Tom Ridge, who lead DHS, has concerns.
I actually read about it all after the fact. I was likely at the bowling ally/pool hall.
I do draw a line somewhere down the middle. I would have supported Nixon ordering troops to withstand the national guard actions during the Kent State massacre, instead of taking the “bums blowing up campuses.” viewpoint.
Last edited by kingcat; 07-22-2020 at 02:49 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
It is about mission creep. ICE and CBP have specific missions. Protect federal buildings. But once the tactics go beyond that mission, there is a concern.
A military style camo fatigues is not nor should it be a duty uniform of law enforcement on the street.
That is just dangerous.
There is a great distinction between looting and peacefully demonstrating. There is a big difference between peaceful assembly and destruction of public or private property.
There is also a big difference in enforcing the law under the Constitution and using Federal law enforcement to deny US citizens due process under the law. It sounds as if DHS personnel are doing just that.
But doesn’t state law fall under federal law?
A federal law applies to the nation as a whole and to all the states whereas state laws are only in effect within that particular state.
If a state law gives people more rights than a federal law, the state law is legally supposed to prevail.
Subsequently, state law cannot legislate taking away civil rights afforded all Americans.
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
The tenth amendment addresses this. It's clear unless one chooses to subvert it's meaning due to complexity. So the Supreme Court has been called upon often tp clarify its meaning for us.
Conservatives have most often pointed to the Tenth Amendment as a means of arguing in favour of restrictions on federal authority.
Until now it seems.
Last edited by kingcat; 07-22-2020 at 03:34 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
And Article 2 Section 3 discusses the responsibilities of the President to enforce the laws of the nation
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
Yes. And when states fail, he or she has the authority. 2 months down the line and still vandalizing buildings. That is a failure to protect all the people. We fought a war over states rights vs federal government. The big guys won.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
You mean like the rights of children to not be shot? The rights of business people to not have their businesses looted and burned?
There is no right to loot, deface and destroy.
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/21/...ad-out-july-21
Citizen stepped in. George Wallace says “Hi”. Waco and Ruby Ridge were out of control ATF enforcing fed firearms laws, terrible. Obama sent Feds after state legal marijuana growers. There are plenty of examples.
If my neighborhood is under siege and state and local authorities can’t clean it up... send in the feds, get it done, clean it up.
The argument that sending in the feds makes the situation worse... the only people that think it’s worse are the ones involved in the crime and violence. The mayors the governors that are saying federal authority makes it worse, then I suggest they drag their butts out on the streets every night/day and clean it up themselves.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"I have touched all the so-called capitals of basketball, but when it gets down to the short stroke, the only true capital of basketball is in Lexington." AL McGuire
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Roaring into the wind. Trump could order their mother's shot and they would find a way to support the decision.
I am going to be very clear with my view you can hate on Trump everyday but do not vote for Biden and that direction that is truly going to lead this country into a civil war!
There is way more going on then is on the surface.
And those who hate Trump would find fault if he cured coronavirus and cancer in the same pill.
When Obama sent the ATF to Waco, or had them sell guns to the Mexican cartels through Arizona gun shops, where was the outrage at "the feds"?
The simple historical truth is that the Federal government has had to step into these issues since there was a federal government. The Whiskey Rebellion is the first example of a POTUS having to use Federal forces to enforce the laws. Posse Comitatus was passed b/c in the South during Reconstruction federal authorities couldn't get state and local law enforcement support so they used federal troops when stationed in the area.
The ATF, DHS, ICE, FBI, and a host of others exist for the whole purpose of going into the states to enforce various laws. The FBI has long been involved in things like church burnings and such for fear local authorities may not act with a real desire to solve the crime and protect minority communities.
If this was Obama sending in troops to ferret out a KKK cell that was causing violence in some community the media would be having a mass orgasm over his leadership. If it's Trump sending them to deal with anarchists and Antifa it's tyranny.
I don't like Trump, but this double standard by which he is judged is doing more harm to the nation than anything he has done.
Last edited by CitizenBBN; 07-22-2020 at 09:33 PM.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
These mayors and governors would prefer to see their cities destroyed rather than ask Trump for help to quell the violence.
It's gone too far to many to return. Like going all in on a bluff.
Sadly, there is historical precedent for it.
Last edited by kingcat; 07-23-2020 at 11:19 AM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
It is interesting to see where one lives and their views. Our "Beltway" ie. Fall Creek and Arlington address posters are totally in line with the Washington Post and CNN media views while us Kentucky and Florida folks are very much more to the right. All I can say, after 71 years in our country, the trend towards anarchy disgusts me in ways it is difficult to express. I think of my Air Force buddies that perished in Viet Nam at the age of 24 and all the military sacrifices through the years and then watch a bunch of punks tear down our country based on some demented view of fariness.
No offense intended but..
Some would say those men, of whom many were and are my friends and acquaintances, went to fight against such things. And if the insignia of their respective branches of service were displayed would automatically be given every amount of respect they truly deserve. I believe the fact is, those type patriots could not in good conscience be ordered to carry out such an order against the citizens of this country. Some of which are common folk and former military themselves..
But no such insignia is present, no vehicles or equipment marked, and no such rules and rights afforded citizens by the constitution, nor the military's sworn allegiance to protect it.
And most are peaceful protesters exercising their rights under the constitution as has been required and heralded as necessary since the establishment of our country. A right that in large defines liberty and freedoms those in service to the nation are sworn to protect.
The link above serves as one example of a proud military man suffering at the hands of this group. One who wore his insignia with dignity and was brutalized by one who could not wear his allegiance on his sleeve.
A group I'd say is not sworn to the constitution, but in fact employ the same tactics and guidelines used against foreign adversaries in a time of war.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
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