Which and why?
Which and why?
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I'd think double action if we are talking bears. Harder to aim, but one less thing to do. But admittedly little pistol experience, and that limited experience is mostly semi-auto.
It depends on the platform. I like single action revolvers, the trigger on the double action seems like it travels a long way. My .357 is double action, but I usually shoot it like a single action. My wife’s .38 has a bobbed hammer, so can’t be shot any other way than double action. It seems to take forever before the trigger breaks, which is why she now uses a striker fired 9mm.Originally Posted by Doc
In semiautomatic pistols it doesn’t make a lot of difference to me. Striker fired pistols like the Glock are usually referred to as double action only. The 1911 is a single action, but you only need to pull the hammer back when carrying one in the pipe, after the first shot it becomes self cocking.
I guess I am not sure the difference
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I am in the group that prefers the double action, whether it be revolver or semi-auto. That's probably because of how my Dad taught me to shoot, and because of my military & law enforcement background.
I know too that when I was in the Army we were transitioning from the 1911's to the Beretta's, and in the periods both before and after my Army service that law enforcement agencies were seeing the transition from revolvers to semi-autos, and that I just trained the way I was taught originally.
I believe that I have experienced the best of both worlds, and was in the right place at the right time in history.
At this time I prefer the semi-autos, mostly because of capacity, but I do still carry a J-frame on occasion. BOTH work, I guess it just depends on your needs at a particular moment.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
https://www.diffen.com/difference/Si..._Double_Action
Exceptional education video
Last edited by dan_bgblue; 07-19-2020 at 09:32 AM.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
Good stuff here! Thanks, guys! 👍😉
Here's my common-sense, no-detail advice--
If you put the pistol in your hand and dry fire it, see how it works, etc. you don't need to know the difference (IMHO). You'll know what you like or don't like.
Now, for some non-technical detail on why SA or DA is important--MAINLY two things. Again, I don't think this is necessary to fully understand to make a good choice for you with your weapon(s).
1. Accuracy
In GENERAL, the "heavier" a trigger pull is, the less likely you'll be accurate with it. But I'm talking shooting range, target accuracy mainly. I can take my S&W 39-2 9mm to the range, and use it with DA mode, where I pull the trigger and it's "heavy" at almost 12 pounds pull. In SA mode, where the hammer is already "cocked," it's less than 1/2 that, much lighter. You are not disturbing your aim much when you pull a "light" trigger (or "hair" trigger, if you will).
My main carry weapon is a single stack .45 ACP Glock, and while it is technically DA, it's a consistent 5.5 pound trigger pull; not light but leaning that way. It's perfect for me.
2. Safety
This probably makes sense, but if you carry a pistol that is DAO, it's pretty safe from accidental trigger pulls (although honestly, all pistols should be safe from accidental trigger pulls, because they ought to be in a holster, they ought to have that area covered, when you remove it from the holster, your finger should not go inside the trigger guard unless you're ready to shoot, etc. ad nauseam). Anyway, because it's a longer, heavier trigger pull, it's less likely to be "accidentally" pulled (I hate saying it this way).
For a single action pistol (or something like the Glock), if you have it cocked and ready to fire (one in the chamber), then if you put your finger or anything inside the trigger guard, it is more likely to be accidentally (negligently) discharged. Shouldn't happen regardless, but just speaking plainly here.
FWIW, Suncat, CitizenBBN, Keith, and others who are far more expert in the area have better descriptions and are much more technical and correct in how they explain these things, and likely will find fault with how I explained it, but I was trying to make it where somebody who doesn't deal with guns regularly might understand it a bit easier.
I'll go back to the original comment I made. If you go to a store (and better yet, a store with an inside shooting range), and try out the pistol; put it in your hands, see how it works, maybe have them explain it to you, etc., it won't matter if it is DA/SA, or whatever; you'll know what you like.
Speaking as someone who is not a "gun guy" really, but I have practiced a bunch with what I have and grew up with them, I'd just urge you to do three things on all your gun selections:
1) Research the gun you're looking at before buying. Don't go into a store and buy something you haven't researched first. Then put it in your hands, make sure the feel is good (some guns have two thick of a grip for me; some are too thin; some find the Glock angle disconcerting; there are a million things that might impact your decision on what feels right to you) and try it out. Ideally try it out at the shooting range with a rangemaster close by.
2) Get a good holster on how you want to carry it and keep the darn thing there unless you're shooting it. I carry inside the waist band and even pocket carry, but I have holsters for everything because you need it to be safe. It isn't just protecting your gun; it's protecting you and others as well.
3) Practice. Hey, if for some reason after you've researched it, looked at it, tried it, bought it, and then when you're putting a few hundred rounds through it you see you don't like it after all--sell it and get something else. The used market is usually pretty good, especially if the gun hasn't been just put through the wringers. I see it as low risk or paying for a rental.
What specific weapons are you asking about?
Darrell, you did an outstanding job of explaining the differences. Excellent, in fact.
My thought on the subject all along has been: how does the handgun 'feel' in your hand? Does it 'fit in your hand'? If it fits in your hand, then you will be able to control it. THE CALIBER IS NOT IMPORTANT. How does it fit in your hand?
And if the grip is comfortable, then the other functions to follow, i.e. shooting stance, sight alignment, breathing, and trigger squeeze (or control) should fall into place.
A note here: I said that caliber is not important, and really, it isn't. It's a personal preference for each individual. Myself, I don't trust a .380 caliber round. I do not carry any caliber smaller than a 9 mm or a .38 special. But that's just me. I actually prefer the .40 S&W or a .45 ACP.
I have seen several dead shooting victims that were killed with .380's and smaller. But for me personally, if I have to pull the trigger I want it to be with a larger caliber than a .380 or smaller. JMHO.
Excellent advice, Suncat. Fit is a huge issue, and one where people often make the most mistakes. I see a lot of the LCP, SCCY sized pistols being bought for women to learn to shoot with due to their small size. A lot of the time these aren’t comfortable in the hand and the ladies don’t like them. When I had my wife looking at a 9mm semiautomatic I had her look for what felt the best in her hand. She chose the Taurus G3, which is comparable in size to me Glock 19. On the other hand my SIL has trouble pulling the trigger on the G3, he has really big meaty hands and has trouble depressing the dongle and unlocking the trigger. He doesn’t have the same issues with my Glock.
Depending on the gun, I say "both".
Seriously, most handguns with exposed hammer will operate as Single or double action. Revolvers are the perfect example. You have the hammer down, you pull through the full trigger pull and it will cock the hammer and then release it. Double action.
But you can also manually cock back the hammer, which pull the trigger to proper position mechanically as well, and you are now single action.
SAO like a cowboy gun is fun, but IMO a really bad idea for all but the most experienced shooters, esp. in a defense situation. Which is why you never see them made for that situation.
You will see a 1911 style action where you have to cock the hammer the first time, thereafter it cocks from the blowback of the slide. The problem is you still need some experience to quickly draw and cock that weapon in a defense situation.
SA/DA you get the best of both worlds.
To me the next best option is a smooth trigger pull hammerless double action, like a glock. I have a few of that design which are safe b/c of the longer trigger pull, but I still prefer the SA/DA exposed hammer for all but pocket carry (hammer can catch on clothes) b/c you can be more ready or less depending on need. For regular carry you're DA, very safe, but if I'm checking out that crash I heard in my house at 3am I may want to be a tad more ready.
In general though it does hurt accuracy, the experience required to effectively operate most single actions IMO makes them a poor choice for newer shooters. You don't want to have to think much, just aim and pull trigger.
Same thing for safeties btw. thats' why revolvers dont' have them, b/c they aren't needed with a long double action trigger pull. But it's an extra step and like cocking the hammer requires more experience and practice to master.
Keep it simple.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
The 1911 is a favorite by many to carry cocked and locked to save time when it is drawn.
Absolutely, but I would still say that is a configuration that requires much more training and experience to operate safely and effectively. You have to get that safety off smoothly, which is very doable, but not for a novice.
The 1911 is extremely popular, and the basic gun design is to this day one of the finest ever, but for most novice shooters a streamlined double action semiauto or revolver will serve better since it is a very simple point and pull design.
I don't think there is a single "right" design, it's what you can use the best, but most novice shooters IMO need it as simple as it can get until they can learn the basics. Even the extra safeties you will see on a lot of older semiautos IMO are just a problem.
Ruger made a niece series of larger steel SAs that had safety/decockers and came in DAO and SA/DA configurations. Really well made guns, but confusing if you were to just pick one up and try to use it.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
CBBN, just throwing a thought out here. Is the novice shooter more likely to shoot and think later when it is easy to just grab the weapon and pull the trigger, regardless of length of trigger pull? When i was learning to shoot my Colt .22 cal I liked having the manual safety on the top left of the weapon. All it took to make the gun ready to fire, if I had left a round in the chamber, was a quick flick of my thumb, then squeeze and it went bang. If I had not left it "loaded" then having to rack the slide acted as having a safety on.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
handgun....looking at a Ruger and a Baretta. Need a full size as the glock is a compact and just a bit small. works well for my wife but not me.
All I want is "Pull the trigger, gun goes bang, pull the trigger, gun goes bank, pull the trigger, gun goes bang"........
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
Which Ruger and which Beretta?
I’m assuming you are talking about the P89 and it’s descendants?
And that is why all of these different handguns come in different sizes. Because all of us humans come in different sizes with different sized hands and different strength levels and different levels of abilities.
That is why going to training classes and adherence to the basics of manually manipulating the handgun, i.e. proper grip, proper stance, sight alignment, breathing, and trigger squeeze is so important.
And then maintaining that by going to the range and practicing those basics so that, God forbid, you should ever have to use that firearm in a self-defense situation, then the training and practice comes into play and you react instinctively, instead of having to remember everything from Step 1 and going through the entire process. JMHO.
Ruger Security-9 9mm 15rd 4" Centerfire Pistol 3810
Beretta M9 9mm Full Size Semi-Automatic Pistol J92M9A0M
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
Two good choices, IMO.
The Security 9 has an internal hammer and functions much like the Glock 19 from the shooter’s perspective. Racking the slide cocks the hammer and the slide cocks the hammer as each shot is fired.
The Beretta has an external hammer, and you can either cock the hammer and fire the first shot in single action, or squeeze the trigger and that act cocks the hammer and then fires the gun in double action. The movement of the slide after each shot is fired will then cock the hammer for the next shot.
The Security 9 will shoot more like the Glock 19, but fits in people’s hands a bit differently. The Beretta is physically larger, and on the first trigger pull it will have a longer pull, after that the trigger pull will shorten quite a bit. I would shoot both and chose whichever feels most comfortable. It would be hard to go wrong with either.
One random thought if you are looking for a self defense weapon that may or may not be a consideration for you.
For me, before I started regularly carrying a self defense weapon, I owned a couple of pistols with external safeties. One day I forgot which way the safety was supposed to be for it to fire. I looked at it and figured it out, but it hit me that, if I had a super stressful, quick action need, I may not have time to figure it out.
I decided I wanted the safest possible weapon I could carry. For me, that was a weapon with no external safety. When stress situations present, I don't want to think. I don't have to wonder, "is the safety on, or off?" Or dunderhead that I may be, "which way does the safety need to be pushed?"
I carry either a 45, loaded and chambered, or a 9mm, same way, and I know in either case, when they come out of the holster, I don't put my finger inside the trigger guard unless I am ready to fire. And in that split second, it will fire. Every time. No thoughts on what to do. It just works.
To me, that's safety.
JMO. I have two semiautomatic handguns for range use only, and two for self-defense. (And occasionally a 38 revolver). The self defense weapons are identical in operation. Pull trigger, it goes bang. Nothing else is required for me to think about prior to activation.
If I were more experienced, or certainly, better trained, as most here on this forum are, I might have a different opinion. A buddy of mine owns hundreds of firearms. He likes external safeties because of how he carries and he is super well trained (former Alabama Bureau of Investigation, or whatever their name was).
Anyway, everyone's mileage may differ, but I will never buy a self defense weapon that requires me to use an external safety. If it's for target practice, hunting, or whatever, sure.
Both of those Doc mentioned have safeties that are moved to fire position by sweeping down. The advantage of the Glocks are those types of safeties are present. The Ruger Security 9 also has a trigger dongle safety.
Darrell, I for one agree with you completely.
I don't like a safety on a handgun, and the trigger safety thing to me is frivolous as well as the possibility of snagging the trigger enough to accidentially fire but not enough to catch that dongle is pretty remote.
I don't believe in a real situation that I want any more than the most basic actions, nor do I think endless training at the range etc. can fully prepare anyone for a real life threat. You could learn from muscle memory to do a certain thing, like a 1911 for example, but if the one thing you learn is to produce the weapon, with finger on the trigger guard, and your next move is to move to the trigger and pull it, that is simple and safe and works with a variety of weapons.
I am good with an exposed hammer to provide a SA pull if you know you need it v/ a DA pull, but with concealed carry a hammer can snag, and with modern semiautos like the Glock the pull is so smooth and responsive that it's not clear there's any advantage to having a hammer you can cock manually. There is on a revolver IMO, but not on a Glock, Sig, etc.
To each his own, you should carry what works best for you, but I'm a KISS principle guy and your technique is what I follow as well, b/c it's simple, reliable and adaptable.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Doc, the Beretta is a good gun, the services used it for decades, my GF can shoot flies with it at 25 yards, but I don't care for it. It's accurate enough for self defense but the loose slide and barrel configuration limits real accuracy, and I just don't like the feel of it. I also think the lack of weight in the slide leads to more muzzle lift. It can also be picky about ammo brands.
I haven't fired that Ruger, but I will say I"m a big fan of Ruger. Now, their guns are extremely well made, and well thought out, and rock solid in reliability. The only caveat is to make sure you're good with the trigger pull. Numerous Rugers are known for having trigger pulls as smooth as a dried corncob.
Personally I'm good with them, I have a 380 LCP, a 38 Sp. LCR, a GP100 in .357 Mag and a Ruger Standard. BTW the Ruger Standard is the gun that launched Strum Ruger & Co, and is to this day one of the best 22 Semi autos ever made.
But a lot of people don't like the trigger pull on some of their guns. Usually it's long and a little rough.
That can easily be tweaked btw. Esp. on older revolvers you can trigger job them and get a very smooth action.
Other than that they make super guns.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
My next handgun I want to try is the Sig P320 compact. They make it in 45 and it's 9+1 in that caliber. I just worry it's still too big for most of my carry. If that doesn't work I also really like the Springfield XDS in 45.
Now I carry 357 and really don't care to step down too far from that heft of round. 45 is a good move from there to get to a rimless semiauto cartridge. I like the 357 Sig but I don't care for specialty calibers. I want pretty stock calibers for most of what I use.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Citizen, the Ruger Security 9 gets good reviews for its trigger. They were a sub $300 back in the winter, before the virus hit. Everything went up after the virus hit.
I know they've worked on them. The mechanisms they use are very reliable, but you know how picky people can be about trigger pull.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks