Gun question

[Doc]

For those in the know.......


We are considering purchasing a gun, be it a handgun or rifle, not sure which, for our Colorado home. It will be solely for protection which will likely come in the form of bears and other wildlife. Will not need a conceal permit as we have no intention of using it anywhere but at the home. I say we need nothing as far as permits or license, but wife thinks we do. I know CO has laws that prohibit gun registration but does the owner need a permit, etc. I assume there is a waiting period but that is no big deal. I looked on line and saw nothing that requires a license. I know we have gun retailers on this site so figured as good a source as any. As we get closer I will ask advice on which gun to get

[KeithKSR]

Colorado doesn’t have many restrictions. The laws are in a brief overview here: https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/csp/colorado-gun-laws

The CCW might be good to get just for the purpose of the training, or if there is a range nearby they should offer a class on firearm safety.

The what to get is the big question. A handgun is far handier if you plan to do any hiking in the great outdoors. A long gun of any type would add lots of weight and be slower to deploy. A gun to defend yourself from a bear attack is useless if you don’t have it with you.

Here is a pretty good article on recommendations from someone knowledgeable. If you currently live near a gun range you can often try before you buy and then get a discount if you choose to buy the handgun.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/b...-bear-country/

[Doc]

Thanks....I was right for the fist time in 33 years

[CitizenBBN]

As Keith posted each state has their own laws, and I don't know Colorado's. Most states don't have waiting periods, registrations, etc. Lots of people even think we have them in Kentucky or nationally and that's not the case. Definitely just check the state official websites for those details.

As for what to get, for bear you obviously are looking a lot bigger than for basic home defense. Shoot a bear with too small a caliber and you just make him mad.

The problem with handgun/rifle is size, but also usability for larger rounds. Rifles can handle large enough rounds easily, and will have way less kick, but are big and bulky by comparison. Handguns are more portable, but firing a 44 Magnum or 45 Colt, etc. in a handgun is a lot of kick, which may be an issue for your wife.

Some say you can shoot solid .357 or similar at bear, but if you arent' placing your shots well I doubt that works. I wouldn't shoot less than a .44. Mag in a pistol.

Another big factor: barrel length. Short 2.5" barrels end up reducing the effective power of the round quite a bit. That's fine for shooting .45 Colt or .410 defense loads at a human, but not a bear. I'd go with a 6" barrel or close.

The problem is shooting that kind of pistol takes real practice, and is hard to handle for even grown men.

An alternative is a 12ga shotgun with shorter barrel (you can go down to 16") and maybe pistol grips. easy to carry at that length relatively, and 00 buck is a little more forgiving on targeting, b/c you know, having a grizzly running at you may be slightly unnerving. It will also give you 3 or more (depending on the laws) shots at it quickly.

Another alternative is a smaller rifle, and they do make a few that are good choices. Some are lever action which can be handy and easy to use for inexperienced shooters versus a bolt action. You can get a "coach" length gun that is still serviceable to carry and will give you several rounds, any number of which are powerful enough for bear.

If it were me I'd have a shotgun or coach or guide length rifle. I'm a pretty good shot with about any gun, but with a grizzly coming at me I'm betting I'm not nearly as good a shot, and a shotgun with 00 buck or a rifle either one will be easier to aim than a pistol.

In fact in that shotgun I'd probably load the first couple in 00 buck, the other in a slug. I figure if I get to shot 3 he's close and that slug in a 12g will do the job as well as anything.

In a rifle I'd go with a big round too btw. 300 win mag, 45-70 Government, something like that with really good knock down weight.

[Darrell KSR]

Good article here about bear attacks and defending them with pistols of varying ammunition. Although they show a 97% success rate, I'd be concerned about some of the ones they have here.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...ts-by-caliber/

For my money, I'm carrying a shotgun and a pistol. If for some reason the bear gets on top of you, having a pistol on your side you can pull out and shoot can be kinda handy. Since I'd have a shotgun, I'd probably carry a smaller pistol than the ones CBBN recommends as a backup, for use in close "bear on top of me" type of action.

[MickintheHam]

Thanks....I was right for the fist time in 33 years

If your wife didn't concur, you are still wrong!

[dan_bgblue]

If I an going to be traipsing around in bear country, brown, kodiak, grizley, polar, varieties, then I am gonna be packing one of these, chambered for the .50 cal round. They work equally well on bull moose or bull elk. Rebid skunk, prairie dog, and beaver just disappear when impacted by this bullet.

Desert Eagle

[KentuckyWildcat]

If I an going to be traipsing around in bear country, brown, kodiak, grizley, polar, varieties, then I am gonna be packing one of these, chambered for the .50 cal round. They work equally well on bull moose or bull elk. Rebid skunk, prairie dog, and beaver just disappear when impacted by this bullet.

Desert Eagle

I was about to say the same thing! If I'm worried about something eating me, I'm going 50 cal lol

[CitizenBBN]

The Desert Eagle is a fine gun no doubt. It's a semi-auto which means more chances to hit the target, but it is a huge gun.

For 50 cal you can also go with the S&W 500. Really good gun.

For a semiauto that's probably powerful enough I might go nuts and get the 44 Automag. Very expensive b/c it's a collectible (I sold one for more than $4K and that was almost 10 years ago). It's the semi-auto Dirty Harry used in Sudden Impact.

If you're going for the gusto they actually make a revolver in 45-70 Government. I had to google to find the maker, it's a company in Minnesota, 10" barrel. Upon googling apparently they also chamber it in 45 colt and 454 Casull (my round of choice for this endeavor btw).

The Raging Hunter is in 454 Casull. So is a Ruger Redhawk model. I'd go with the Ruger. Can't go wrong with Ruger.

In googling around I've seen a few mention the 10mm round. It is a very powerful round, and you get a lot more shots with it, and a lot better control.

If I was going smaller I may want more than 5-6 rounds, in which case I go 10mm or maybe the 357 AMP, the semiauto version of the 357 magnum. If i had $5K to spend maybe I get the 44 Automag. But those are backup guns.

In the end I'm with Darrell. I have a 12 ga shotgun cut down to bare length or a coach length rifle, with a big but not massive handgun as backup.

If not a shotgun I'd go with the Marlin 1895. Here's the gun:
https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever...95-dark-series

5 shots, a little under 36" in length, lever action is easy to learn and shoot on target, shoots a 45-70 Govt. I think you can get a bead with that gun.

But I still get a higher capacity shotgun if it's legal.

[KentuckyWildcat]

The Desert Eagle is a fine gun no doubt. It's a semi-auto which means more chances to hit the target, but it is a huge gun.

A bear is a huge animal

[KentuckyWildcat]

In all seriousness, I wouldn't have just one. I'd have a bolt action rifle in the house. Caliber? Not sure, maybe the 7.62x39 Ruger? I just like the round, it should kill a bear, won't go for miles, and easy to find. I've learned this past week, the Hornady SST round really does explode.

Pistol to carry is a hard choice to me. Double stack auto with plenty of rounds? Or the dependability of a revolver? Not sure, though decision.

[KeithKSR]

Pistol to carry is a hard choice to me. Double stack auto with plenty of rounds? Or the dependability of a revolver? Not sure, though decision.

There is a lot of movement toward the 10mm round as an option in bear country. It is easier to shoot and provides a lot more rounds to throw at the bear.

https://www.petersenshunting.com/edi...defense/368366

A lot of hikers and people in the outdoors in bear country are using chest rig holsters, they are more accessible in a lot of instances than a belt holster.

[dan_bgblue]

https://gunbelts.com/blog/is-10mm-overrated/

[KentuckyWildcat]

My buddy just had to have a 10mm. He likes it, but he is more of a collector, not a hunter at all. Tried to get me to buy one, but I like the common rounds more. I really just have 7.62x39, 9mm, and 223. I have one 380 with 1 box of shells. It stays by the bed and I doubt I ever buy another box for it. I would like to add the 6.5 but if I do, I won't keep much of it laying around either.

[KeithKSR]

My buddy just had to have a 10mm. He likes it, but he is more of a collector, not a hunter at all. Tried to get me to buy one, but I like the common rounds more. I really just have 7.62x39, 9mm, and 223. I have one 380 with 1 box of shells. It stays by the bed and I doubt I ever buy another box for it. I would like to add the 6.5 but if I do, I won't keep much of it laying around either.

The 10mm is becoming more popular in bear territories because it affords the ease of use of a semiautomatic with enough stopping power to stop a bear, and gives you more rounds to stop that bear. The Glock 20 runs around $550 and gives you 15+1 capacity, vs $750+ for a brand name double action like the S&W 69, which only holds 5 rounds.

[Darrell KSR]

If I were drawing from a blank slate, I'd choose a 12 gauge pump shotgun with buckshot and slugs alternating and a Glock 20 as my backup. I'd check with Keith, Chuck, Dan and others about what would be a reliable shotgun that was reasonably priced (Mossberg? Remington?) and model and get it and feel very comfortable with my front line defense. For the reasons Keith suggested, I'd love the G20 as my backup. In real world scenarios, weapons "less" than you think have been highly successful in bear defenses, and I think that's plenty of firepower, especially given the number of rounds, as a backup.

In my pretend world if I had a need for it tomorrow, I'd still buy the shotgun as described, and just my own .45 ACP as my backup. I like the idea of having a weapon I am already very comfortable with shooting, that is reliable as heck, that affords me no difficulty with recoil. I'd have to carefully consider the precise ammunition to use with it, but as a backup, I'd be fine with it.

Oh--and get Keith's chest holster. That just makes too much sense.

[dan_bgblue]

The Glock 20 runs around $550 and gives you 15+1 capacity

The dimensions on the grip must be huge. The cartridges are pretty darn big and I think squeezing then into the grip side by side will make for a fat handle. jmho

[Darrell KSR]

The dimensions on the grip must be huge. The cartridges are pretty darn big and I think squeezing then into the grip side by side will make for a fat handle. jmho

You made me curious.

The G20, gen 4 is 1.34" wide at the grip.

https://eu.glock.com/en/products/pistols/g20-gen4

The G19 is 1.26".

https://eu.glock.com/en/products/pistols/g19

Is that 0.08" significant? Maybe. I think YMMV.

EDIT...better comparison to the .45 caliber G21 gen 4.

The G21 is 1.34", same as the G20.

https://eu.glock.com/en/products/pistols/g21-gen4

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks for doing the research. My imagination was way off.

[CitizenBBN]

Thanks for doing the research. My imagination was way off.

Men generally tend to overestimate on size and grip like that....

[Darrell KSR]

Men generally tend to overestimate on size and grip like that....

I thought the grip was about 9 or 10 in.... Uhh, nevermind.

[BigBluePappy]

Men generally tend to overestimate on size and grip like that....

You win the internet for the day, sir.

[dan_bgblue]

Darrell, if we can leave the children out of the conversation a moment, are those numbers the dimensions from side to side or from front to back?

[Catfan73]

"bear on top of me" type of action.

I am disappointed in all of you for just letting this go.

[Darrell KSR]

Darrell, if we can leave the children out of the conversation a moment, are those numbers the dimensions from side to side or from front to back?

Width...as in, if the rounds are side by side in the magazine, the width used to accommodate that. Here's the pic (see # 3).

G20.jpg

[Darrell KSR]

I am disappointed in all of you for just letting this go.

Oh, man lol.

[BigBluePappy]

I am disappointed in all of you for just letting this go.

A Revenant kind of thing...

[KeithKSR]

Darrell, if we can leave the children out of the conversation a moment, are those numbers the dimensions from side to side or from front to back?

Grip dimensions are always side to side, people like to use that measurement to determine worthiness for CCW. The thicker the grip the more it is likely to “print.” The reason a lot of people like single stack weapons is because the grips are thinner and it is easier to conceal.

[CitizenBBN]

I am disappointed in all of you for just letting this go.

Hey I jumped in and have already been called a child. Not that it will dissuade me...

[bigsky]

My .44 Redhawk loaded with big bullets is a comforting backcountry gun. I have some reloads that make it go "SPRANG". I guess I could get one of those marlin big loop carbines in that caliber but I've been liking carrying my little hammerless Kimber in .357 for snakes and etc. So I guess I'll wait till the .357 shows up in the marlin too. Altho I could reload some softer .44 specials. It's a fine home self defense and short enough to hang out in the truck too.

As for gun laws, Sheesh I fill out the paper and they sell me the gun. I have avoided getting a medical marijuana card because they can show up in the search, or at least I've heard. Or I buy one from the paper or a friend or whatever. I am going to get my Arizona, etc concealed carry this year. We all need goals, especially retired people.