I wonder if Pelosi, Schiff, Nadler and other conspiracy theorists

[dan_bgblue]

will spend another 2 years using pigs to try and sniff out collusion when China messes around with the coming election

[StuBleedsBlue2]

You mean other conspiracy theorists like our intelligence community and the Republican-led Senate Intelligence committee?

[CitizenBBN]

Our intelligence community is in a conspiracy.

[Catonahottinroof]

You mean the same community that misled about WMD in Iraq, or spied Congressional personal phone calls, or the one where Clapper lied to the congressional oversight committee on surveillance, or ex CIA director that leaked info that Snowden called him out on? That agency.....?
Yeah, no conspiracy creators there.....smh

You mean other conspiracy theorists like our intelligence community and the Republican-led Senate Intelligence committee?

[MickintheHam]

You mean the same community that misled about WMD in Iraq, or spied Congressional personal phone calls, or the one where Clapper lied to the congressional oversight committee on surveillance, or ex CIA director that leaked info that Snowden called him out on? That agency.....?
Yeah, no conspiracy creators there.....smh

Why limit it to just that!

[StuBleedsBlue2]

You mean the same community that misled about WMD in Iraq, or spied Congressional personal phone calls, or the one where Clapper lied to the congressional oversight committee on surveillance, or ex CIA director that leaked info that Snowden called him out on? That agency.....?
Yeah, no conspiracy creators there.....smh

Well, if any of that were true, you might have something. Sadly, it's not.

[Catonahottinroof]

You need to get out more often....

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-wrong/302878/
https://thefederalist.com/2019/03/06...g-to-congress/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...enate-staffers
https://www.politico.com/story/2015/...instein-121296
https://www.laprogressive.com/clappe...ould-be-fired/

Well, if any of that were true, you might have something. Sadly, it's not.

[Doc]

You deny something enough it becomes reality

[dan_bgblue]

You deny something enough it becomes reality

Nancy swears that her broom is the zero emissions model.

[CitizenBBN]

Well, if any of that were true, you might have something. Sadly, it's not.

You're saying there were WMDs in Iraq? That there were no FISA warrant violations? That Clapper didn't lie to Congress about NSA phone surveillance of American citizens?

You sure you want to take those positions?

With the information released by Snowden, the NSA lies by Clapper, etc. it's clear the intelligence community is corrupt and lies regularly to their superiors in Congress and the White House. That much is now a given.

[CitizenBBN]

Nancy swears that her broom is the zero emissions model.

And those $24K freezers are powered by humanely treated squirrels on little wheels.

[Doc]

Nancy swears that her broom is the zero emissions model.

It emits bullshit, just like the owner

[kingcat]

You need to get out more often....

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-wrong/302878/


Finally!! I wish we had our old discussions on WMD and the Gulf War to peruse through.
It bears reminding: the Invasion of Iraq was a premeditated fraud on the American people, meant to help and enrich the few even if this led to the deaths of millions and the depopulation of entire regions of the world.

Halliburton -- once run by former Vice President Dick Cheney -- and its spin off, KBR, were the biggest recipients of government largess derived from the destruction of Iraq.

From The Financial Times:

The US has overwhelmingly borne the brunt of both the military and reconstruction costs, spending at least $138bn on private security, logistics and reconstruction contractors, who have supplied everything from diplomatic security to power plants and toilet paper.

...

An analysis by the Financial Times reveals the extent to which both American and foreign companies have profited from the conflict – with the top 10 contractors securing business worth at least $72bn between them. None has benefited more than KBR, once known as Kellogg Brown and Root.

...

The controversial former subsidiary of Halliburton, which was once run by Dick Cheney, vice-president to George W. Bush, was awarded at least $39.5bn in federal contracts related to the Iraq war over the past decade"

https://thefederalist.com/2019/03/06...g-to-congress/

Never really liked Clapper and never understood how he sailed through Senate confirmation with flying colors.

"Former National Intelligence Director James Clapper’s key role in helping the Cheney/Bush administration “justify” war on Iraq with fraudulent intelligence was exposed on Tuesday at the Carnegie Endowment in Washington. His own words were quoted back to him from his memoir “Facts and Fears: Hard Truths From a Life in Intelligence.” Hard truths, indeed.

Clapper was appointed Director of National Intelligence by President Barack Obama in June 2010, almost certainly at the prompting of Obama’s intelligence confidant and Clapper friend John Brennan, later director of the CIA. Despite Clapper’s performance on Iraq, he was confirmed unanimously by the Senate. Obama even allowed Clapper to keep his job for three and a half more years after he admitted that he had lied under oath to that same Senate about the extent of eavesdropping on Americans by the National Security Agency (NSA). He is now a security analyst for CNN.

In his book, Clapper finally places the blame for the consequential fraud (he calls it “the failure”) to find the (non-existent) WMD “where it belongs — squarely on the shoulders of the administration members who were pushing a narrative of a rogue WMD program in Iraq and on the intelligence officers, including me, who were so eager to help that we found what wasn’t really there.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...enate-staffers
A continuation of Cheney's gulf war fiasco, Homeland security over reach, and CIA torture policy.
Overreach and policy supported by many in this very forum. I know...I was chastised for disagreeing.

"A U.S. official familiar with the inspector general report disputed that hacking tools were used, and told the AP that there was no malicious intent behind the CIA actions, but simply an effort to account for documents believed to have been improperly accessed.

Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., who is also on the intelligence committee, said Thursday that Brennan's apology needs to be public.

"The CIA Inspector General has confirmed what senators have been saying all along: The CIA conducted an unauthorized search of Senate files, and attempted to have Senate staff prosecuted for doing their jobs," Wyden said. "Director Brennan's claims to the contrary were simply not true

"What's needed now is a public apology from Director Brennan to staff and the committee, a full accounting of how this occurred and a commitment there will be no further attempts to undermine Congressional oversight of CIA activities," said Wyden.

The ACLU wasn't satisfied with the CIA’s response.

"An apology is not enough — the Justice Department must refer the CIA inspector general’s report to a federal prosecutor for a full investigation into any crimes by CIA personnel or contractors," said Christopher Anders, senior legislative counsel for the civil liberties group

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/...instein-121296
Still trying to cover up the back room approved atrocities committed with the approval of Dick Cheney, imo. A name that should go down in infamy but long since forgotten is John Woo, the Bush White House’s deputy assistant attorney general in the Department of Justice’s Office of Legal Counsel.

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/f...rture_memo.pdf

https://www.laprogressive.com/clappe...ould-be-fired/

I have no love for either. If the DOJ indicts them I'll be more interested than anyone. The onus is now on them to do so as a matter of fact.
There is nothing to prevent it, and only one excuse not to. It is more beneficial to attach political baggage to a story, and forsake the implementation of justice.
I am very curious what happens and I am convinced any investigation goes back to the formation of and illegal practices of the Republican founded office of Homeland Security.

That also could be exactly what shelves any investigation before its complete. But I am satisfied an age old argument is now satisfied.

Regardless, fun stuff.

[kingcat]

Sorry about posting within the quote. I don't know what I was doing...half asleep I believe.

I would only add this..

SECRET blueprint for US global domination reveals that President Bush and his cabinet were planning a premeditated attack on Iraq to secure 'regime change' even before he took power in January 2001.

The blueprint, uncovered by the Sunday Herald, for the creation of a 'global Pax Americana' was drawn up for Dick Cheney (now vice- president), Donald Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), George W Bush's younger brother Jeb and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written in September 2000 by the neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

The plan shows Bush's cabinet intended to take military control of the Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power. It says: 'The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.'

The PNAC document supports a 'blueprint for maintaining global US pre-eminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests'.

This 'American grand strategy' must be advanced for 'as far into the future as possible', the report says. It also calls for the US to 'fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars' as a 'core mission'.

The report describes American armed forces abroad as 'the cavalry on the new American frontier'. The PNAC blueprint supports an earlier document written by Wolfowitz and Libby that said the US must 'discourage advanced industrial nations from challenging our leadership or even aspiring to a larger regional or global role'.

The PNAC report also:

l refers to key allies such as the UK as 'the most effective and efficient means of exercising American global leadership';

l describes peace-keeping missions as 'demanding American political leadership rather than that of the United Nations';

l reveals worries in the administration that Europe could rival the USA;

l says 'even should Saddam pass from the scene' bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will remain permanently -- despite domestic opposition in the Gulf regimes to the stationing of US troops -- as 'Iran may well prove as large a threat to US interests as Iraq has';

l spotlights China for 'regime change' saying 'it is time to increase the presence of American forces in southeast Asia'. This, it says, may lead to 'American and allied power providing the spur to the process of democratisation in China';

l calls for the creation of 'US Space Forces', to dominate space, and the total control of cyberspace to prevent 'enemies' using the internet against the US;

l hints that, despite threatening war against Iraq for developing weapons of mass destruction, the US may consider developing biological weapons -- which the nation has banned -- in decades to come. It says: 'New methods of attack -- electronic, 'non-lethal', biological -- will be more widely available ... combat likely will take place in new dimensions, in space, cyberspace, and perhaps the world of microbes ... advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool';

l and pinpoints North Korea, Libya, Syria and Iran as dangerous regimes and says their existence justifies the creation of a 'world-wide command-and-control system'.

Tam Dalyell, the Labour MP, father of the House of Commons and one of the leading rebel voices against war with Iraq, said: 'This is garbage from right-wing think-tanks stuffed with chicken-hawks -- men who have never seen the horror of war but are in love with the idea of war. Men like Cheney, who were draft-dodgers in the Vietnam war.

'This is a blueprint for US world domination -- a new world order of their making. These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world. I am appalled that a British Labour Prime Minister should have got into bed with a crew which has this moral standing.'

[Catonahottinroof]

Agree with your opinion Kingcat. Bush and Cheney have questions that need answering, just as the NSA/CIA do.

I have no love for either. If the DOJ indicts them I'll be more interested than anyone. The onus is now on them to do so as a matter of fact.
There is nothing to prevent it, and only one excuse not to. It is more beneficial to attach political baggage to a story, and forsake the implementation of justice.
I am very curious what happens and I am convinced any investigation goes back to the formation of and illegal practices of the Republican founded office of Homeland Security.

That also could be exactly what shelves any investigation before its complete. But I am satisfied an age old argument is now satisfied.

Regardless, fun stuff.

[CitizenBBN]

Agree with your opinion Kingcat. Bush and Cheney have questions that need answering, just as the NSA/CIA do.

It's a distinction without a difference. Cheney IS the NSA/CIA.

This shouldn't be a partisan issue. The bureaucrats that Congress has ceded so much of its power to is now answerable to no one, in either party, and does what it thinks is best regardless of who the People vote into office to follow a given policy.

People who hate Trumps guts should be livid that the intelligence community works to undermine his policies re Iran or China or Russia, b/c he is the duly elected POTUS, and ran on those policies very explicitly.

Likewise we should all be livid over the lies about WMDs, the FISA process, NSA spying on citizens, etc.

But during this current administration only those on Team Trump appear mad about these abuses, b/c it's helping the opposition that the intelligence community and bureaucracy generally is running amok.

The only time they'll get mad is if they had undermined Obama or undermine Biden.

That's not good enough. You have to be mad about this undermining of the Constitution no matter who it benefits or hurts.

Because Trump is so much an outsider, and is hated by the establishment left (and most government employees are liberal as they are going to be pro government) and by the conservative never-Trumpers, it has exposed the depths of their corruption and disregard for the will of the People. It's worse now than ever simply b/c he doesn't have the support of either the entrenched elites on the left or right, and the fact they are rebelling against totally acceptable policies (like exiting Afghanistan, not getting into wwiii with Iran, etc.) that The People supported with their votes, should have us all very very angry and demanding accountability.

[kingcat]

And most of those same people Concerned now defended Bush, Cheney, Halliburton, torture, etc., . And condemned Obama abandoning our allies the Kurds inIraq and Syria, etc..
I guess the point is, not all are evil all the time, nor others good all the time. But each matter is often decided years after the fact because of how perfected political spin is now.

So it goes for me and everyone here that we cannot be entirely certain on any matter and should approach our interactions in that way. So if I seem to act like I know it all or am never mistaken, I’m sorry and wrong. I have recently revisited our past discussions as far back as 2012 and found no one Including me has been beyond being 100% wrong and changing our stance over time. A valuable lesson to be had.

None of us are “on top of things” politically until it all shakes out. So our opinions on relatively current matters are just that and subject to being proven wrong over time.

[CitizenBBN]

I think I'm getting closer to "right" as I'm becoming more and more cynical and jaded and convinced all our leaders are corrupt and self-interested.

Power corrupts. that's the maxim I live by in politics. No matter which side gets power, they will be corrupted by it, and given that they basically share power, they are both already corrupted and will remain so.

To that end it's like wargames, the only winning move is not to play. the only way we limit corruption and elites selling us out is to have as few elites as possible with as little power as possible.

I have no illusions about Trump, nor did I have with Bush II. I said at the time that the Neocon strategy of nation building was risky. I got the idea, but it was based on accomplishing a lot that hadn't ever been accomplished: specifically to somehow engender a rule of law in a region that is ruled by might and men.

Obviously it was a failure. As to the WMD question, I have changed position on that, going from thinking it was bad intelligence on the details to thinking it was intentional lies, and may have included lies TO the White House as much as lies from the White House.

With the Snowden release and finding out the CIA director and others have bald face lied to Congress in public hearings on MAJOR questions, I think it's now no small leap to conclude they are running their own operations like some Patriot Games movie, operating without oversight from anyone we elect.

in short, the thing all of the last 3 years has convinced me of is that things are actually far worse than I imagined, and I imagined them pretty bad already.

[kingcat]

I loved “war games” by the way. One of the best movies of that particular genre imo. Disney type productions or what have you