seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/trump-adm...oarding-of-ppe
It's clear that the Chinese knew how serious this was going to be by January, and they began restricting export of PPE and, even more damning, BUYING huge amounts of it, 1.2 BILLION worth, from other countries and stockpiling it.
They KNEW this was going to happen, and they stockpiled the world's supply so they could use it for themselves and also dole it back out and act like some benevolent helper.
IMO they also knew this was going to spread like it did, and covered up the extent of the threat for months. The fact they were buying up PPE proves they knew this in advance and decided to keep the rest of the world in the dark.
It's a scandal of genocidal proportions. Now I wonder if the US media can put aside their Trump hatred long enough to report on our real enemy.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Dan I merged these threads, hope that's OK. Same topic, the fact that China has consciously planned for months to manipulate this situation for political and financial gain.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Is China a villain? A rogue state? Yes. And it is pretty shitty to sell what the Italians donated to them.
Our supply lines, not withstanding, we had knowledge and could have and should have moved quicker.
Plenty of time to critique the US response.
I will say this. We want to maintain alliances with Western countries. We also want to make sure that the states don't feel like it is a lord of the lies environment where we are under the Articles of Confederation as opposed to the Constitution.
If California, Hawaii and Alaska had been told that the Japanese were their problem and the Federal government was here as backup...F that.
I'd dispute that based on what we've seen come out so far. The FDA and CDC, who I think we can all conclude are smart, non-political and experts in this field, clearly were not responding to this early.Originally Posted by UKHistory
At the point at which the virus was already here in Seattle the FDA was still doing everything "business as usual". There's no way Trump or any other politician was going to get out ahead of the experts on this, and our experts, IMO believing the Chinese propaganda, weren't really losing their minds on this in January and early February.
Here's an article from a source that is surely anti-Trump, detailing some of the simple bureaucracy in the way at that time:
https://www.gq.com/story/inside-amer...=pocket-newtab
Clearly Trump has been following the advice of these professionals from some time, but I would contend he's been following it all along. Nothing has come out that he was resisting their calls for action internally (and given the leaky nature of this administration you'd think it would have by now), and their own statements and timeline indicate they didn't see this as a threat requiring a shut down in January or February.
I think they were concerned, and some were calling for action, but clearly the FDA and CDC were slow to respond. If they were slow it's not fair to expect politicians to respond.
And the chinese aren't doing something that is just shitty. They are taking a global pandemic they failed to recognize or stop and trying to manipulate it for political power.
That's like saying Stalin was really shitty IMO. This is calculated mass murder.
Now that's not a hard thing for the Chinese leaders. They have concentration camps with anywhere from 100s of 1000s to millions in them.
But they:
1) Failed to recognize this problem. Some of that is forgivable, but they then
2) systematically repressed reports and information on the problem coming from doctors
3) upon realizing the global scope of the problem began restricting export of PPE and simultaneously buying up PPE worldwide, while
4) not telling the world the nature or level of the problem, allowing people to leave China by the millions who they knew would be carriers
5) then using that hoarded PPE to "aid" countries for political gain.
They unleashed this, knowingly withheld information and allowed it to spread, and now intend to turn it to their political and apparently financial advantage.
For those of you on here convinced of conspiracies about Trump plotting a coup, this is the REAL, in your face, totalitarian conspiracy. This regime has labor camps where they forcibly harvest organs from people they deem enemies of the state. They have a complete police state with tracking Orwell wouldn't have imagined.
This kind of behavior is absolutely not out of character for them at all. They are the real threat. Time for us as Americans to stop naval gazing at each other and see the real and obvious threat to America, to democracy, and to world stability.
Trump's "America First" needs to be implemented with regards to China in every way possible. Bring back manufacturing, punish companies who export our technology to them, isolate them economically, politically and militarily in every way. End the "One China" policy, arm Taiwan, patrol the South China Sea, create trade blocks of the Four Tigers, Japan and the US.
Pull out the stops, and most off stop seeing this as a chance for internal political points when the enemy is a foreign nation.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
One lesson to be learned from this ordeal, supply chains for necessary products shouldn’t cross any international border to be built.
Trump should have seen this coming
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
In some ways he did. His call for less dependence on the Chinese and foreign manufacture is a sound and now proven point.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I was being sarcastic
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
In February Fauci announced there was nothing to fear from the virus.
I know.
Just making the point that he did in fact run on the issue of over reliance on foreign goods. I think that argument is settled.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I think the whole world was looking at data from the Chinese, and that data was deeply flawed and grossly underestimated the situation.
part of it too is that this is a 100 year thing, and they were looking at it more like the avian flu or SARS etc., which did in fact peter out fairly quickly.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Figured you did......I know.
Just making the point that he did in fact run on the issue of over reliance on foreign goods. I think that argument is settled.
WHO bears some as well.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
From what I have been able to glean, WHO bears a lot of blame due to their apparent fear of China and their unwillingness to let the world know the magnitude of the potential problem.WHO bears some as well.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
This. It's coming out that WHO should be prosecuted as an accessory to murder.
China pulled the trigger. WHO helped them dig the hole.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
It's exactly why Trump was referring to this as the Chinese Virus. He was sending them a very not so subtle message. If nothing else the Chinese are preoccupied with image. Too many at WHO are in their back pocket. For that matter too many in Washington, DC and the NBA are in their back pocket.
Real Fan since 1958
Even Fox who first decided it was a good opportunity to disparage Dems are now diverting blame by throwing shade to the WH.
...or throwing curve balls by actually reporting facts ex post facto.
$trange days indeed.
I understand their need to avoid the national sympathy that will accompany lawsuits they will face as everything comes into focus.
But it serves no beneficial purpose currently. It should be revisited at a later date, so government can operate at full efficiency without distraction in the midst of crisis.
Still, the "our minds were elsewhere" argument is just as damning as it appeared.
Last edited by kingcat; 04-07-2020 at 12:31 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
The Feb. 23 memo, first reported by Axios and confirmed by Fox News, warned that “there is an increasing probability of a full-blown COVID-19 pandemic that could infect as many as 100 million Americans, with a loss of life as many as 1-2 million souls.”
Do we still have prognostications that come any where near the numbers predicted above?
The estimate was ultimately in line with what officials say could have happened without any social distancing measures and other precautions now in place across the country.
That is spitball guessing with projected outcomes to try and prove a point.
But with extensive restrictions in place, they said the coronavirus could still leave 100,000 to 240,000 people in the U.S. dead and millions infected.
How does this line up-with the IHME numbers recently shared here?
On March 27, the United States hit the 100,000 case mark. On April 1, the number of Americans infected doubled to more than 200,000 cases. Just three days later, on Saturday, positive COVID-19 cases topped 300,000.
As of Tuesday, the U.S. reported more than 368,400 positive cases of COVID-19 and more than 10,990 deaths.
The huge increase in numbers of infected cases pretty much lines up with the availability of testing supplies that allowed for a huge increase in the number of people that were tested in that short period of time. We also have a long way to go to see the 100,000 deaths that is the lowest recent projection for deaths by virus. It is also a hell of a lot less than the one early projection of 1 to 2 million virus deaths.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
Everyone's minds were elsewhere. Why?
Well, the Chinese were NOT telling the world what they really knew about the risks, so most underestimated the problem.
Second, we have had 3 years of completely stupid naval gazing going on ever since Trump was elected. The Russia hoax, the impeachment, it's been the Trump love/hate fest for 3 years, which I have complained FAR before this mess was a huge distraction on our ability to operate in the world and allowed us to ignore a laundry list of REAL actual problems, both foreign and domestic.
Did we get coverage of the opiod crisis, or even a focus on a good liberal topic like healthcare? Focus on what the Chinese are doing globally to consolidate their influence? Anything other than endless hand wringing about things as minute as a single phone call to a single foreign head of state?
Physicians, heal thyselves. it's been obvious since Trump's nomination that the media and political realms weren't paying attention to anything actually important. It only made the news if it could hurt Trump, and most of what did make the news was so unimportant as to be devoid of purpose. Trump feeds it with his inane tweets, but the media and others take the bait every time.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
It did make the news, and in a huge way, but was heralded as fake news by the man holding the most powerful and influential office in the world.
You cant just re-write such recent history.
There just is no argument there. Only side stepping and/or clouding the issue.
That's exactly why Fox was reporting it.
But as I said, it's time to move on and revisit all this when time can afford to be devoted to it. (generally speaking)
It is in the past for now...but documented beyond a shadow of doubt. And the president currently has more on his plate than anyone can comfortably deal with as it is. That plate was served months ago.
Last edited by kingcat; 04-07-2020 at 03:40 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
In mid February according to USA Today news here.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ly/2958266001/
With a 2nd such direct report to the president on 2/23.
On the day Kadlec sent his email, President Trump repeated at a news conference a refrain he had recited for weeks: “We have it very much under control in this country.”
That was also the day Trump received a second warning from a top advisor that a coronavirus pandemic could cost the country trillions of dollars and endanger millions of Americans
This is a week later..
On the Red Dawn threads, experts traded their own research, international headlines and analysis from other publicly available data coming out of China and the cruise ships that were carrying some of the first American patients.
National officials activating response plans across federal agencies in February and into March also were warned through the emails of early signs the virus appeared to be spreading in places such as California and Washington state.
The names copied on the correspondence – a portion of which USA TODAY obtained from direct recipients and public records requests – include division-level leaders at the CDC’s public health offices; Dr. Gregory Martin, a division director at the State Department; Mecher at Veterans Affairs; as well as Kadlec’s key lieutenants at the preparedness agency inside HHS.
Last edited by kingcat; 04-07-2020 at 05:10 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
The CIA reported to Trump that China was hiding numbers. But he ignored them.
In fact, he defended them:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.new...486293%3famp=1
He downplayed it. He lied about the severity. He didn’t prepare.
U.S. deaths 12,400
South Korea deaths: 192
Both had first positive case Jan 21. They had higher population density and a supercluster of cases. They tested and tracked immediately.
They didn’t trust China.
Puma, just put "we" in place of "he" and you'll be vastly more accurate. I could post about 30 links to officials across the country of both parties who were downplaying it the whole time and even after Trump wasn't?
The South Koreans did get out ahead of it better. They were about the only ones. All of Europe, the Middle east, all with us or behind us on this, but somehow it's still just down to "he". lol.
If we can ever stop the Trump hate we might be able to work on problems. I get why people don't like him, I sure don't like him, but it limits objectivity to focus on "he" when the FDA, NIH, CDC, the mayor of New York, numerous other public officials (including Biden, who criticized the travel restrictions despite his staff's revisionism), and oh, all of Europe, were right there with him.
It's like holding FDR responsible for Pearl Harbor, and btw both at the time and to this day some do hold him responsible. Why? B/c yes there were reports of possible Japanese movements, and War Department studies and other voices showing the risk. We simply missed it. Yes he could have seen it coming, and his staff could have seen it coming, but it didn't happen.
And like Trump now, some did blame FDR for missing it as tensions were obviously rising with Japan with the oil embargo and other actions. But in historic terms that has been dismissed as simply the normal ebb and flow of seeing these things coming and not seeing them. Wars are full of effectively misleading leaders and generals who are still great and effective even if they sometimes are misdirected.
Trump was being given SOME information about it being a problem from his staff, but was also clearly being given information that it wasn't as big of a threat.
Singling out just him for these decisions is simply misleading, just like how missing the attack on Pearl Harbor was a whole chain of people missing clues and information.
the problem is that then we aren't learning from mistakes, like maybe having the FDA not take 2 months to fast track a test in a damned crisis. Real solutions and dialogue get lost in this political blame game. If Trump was singularly to blame them I'm all for it, but it's clear this was a large scale failure to see this coming by a host of agencies, nations, individuals, etc.
Last edited by CitizenBBN; 04-07-2020 at 08:16 PM.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Absolutely. I think there are others to blame (including China). He’s just certainly included in the list.
On this board, I was posting his dismissive comments on the day he was making them while KNOWING this thing was a million times worse.
I’m a nobody. No CIA working for me. No medical professionals. None of that. And yet somehow when he was saying “we have shut it down” I was at Costco stocking up on supplies.
I don’t know how other Presidents would have handled this exact crisis. None of us do. And I have stated several times I think he has handled this much better of late.
But in a thread that is literally called “who is REALLY to blame? China” it’s worth remembering your point: others are to blame as well. Including Trump.
He has his role in this, but the fact that you and others were concerned about it becoming worse isn't really evidence.
Lots of people thought SARS was going to be like this, and turned out wrong. Lots of preppers have been saying this will happen for 20 years. Being wrong 19 of them doesn't mean they were "right". People go stock up on supplies for everything from pandemics that haven't turned out to snow storms that fizzle. Some happen, some don't.
Blame is different from making a right or wrong prediction. Trying to figure out what is going to happen is inexact and when someone picks wrong that's not the same as "blame".
"Blame", or responsibility as I focused on it, is about doing something knowingly that causes an outcome, or at least some level of gross negligence that one should have known. If all these media and other sources were also downplaying it then it absolves Trump of gross negligence. He picked wrong, his usual "it's all great" thing didn't work out, but it's not gross negligence.
So who in this chain of events KNEW there were issues, KNEW It was bad and either didn't act or acted contrary to everyone's interests?
Not Trump. Not Fauci. Not even De Blasio. The only party that KNEW what they were doing when they downplayed it, and falsified numbers and began hoarding the global supply of PPE, was the Chinese government.
That's it. Everyone else was acting in good faith, even if their decisions were wrong. If you are acting in good faith for the good of the people then you are only "responsible" if you are grossly negligent, and that's just not what happened.
It's the Chinese government that allowed this to get out of hand b/c they didn't want the PR issues, that then covered up the extent of the problem, and that knowing the extent of the problem began blocking export of PPE and buying more from around the world from nations they knew would soon need it.
Trump missed, and misjudged, based on his advisors and what was presented to him, which unfortunately did not include voices of those warning this was going to be a disaster.
But only the Chinese have acted in bad faith.
I can use any number of legal analogies to support the position if desired, but in terms of "guilt" in our system of jurisprudence the "mens rea" or state of mind is critical to determining the level of guilt and crime. That framework is the best way to judge this situation, and using that framework it's easy to cut through the politics and subjective issues and focus on the objective. Using that approach the only "guilty party" in this that is really actionable is the Chinese.
And that doesn't just cover Trump. It covers Fauci, it covers the Brits, it covers Italy. Much of the rest of the world was just as blindsided or even more so. Heck, Italy sent PPE to China to help not knowing what was coming for them. In hindsight a horrible decision, but are they to "blame" for it? IMO probably not, as they were lied to by the Chinese like everyone else, and their sin was believing it.
Trump's sin was believing the Chinese to some degree (though not fully b/c they howled at his travel restrictions), and applying his simplistic optimism "it's great" to a situation that was not great. He sure doesn't get positive points for it, i.e. his travel restrictions were good but are easily wiped out by not having done more, but I don't see negligence here either.
With China we have pure unadulterated guilt. They didn't accidentally shoot someone while cleaning their gun, this was premeditated mass murder.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Regardless, my prayer is that my family and you, my friends here and elsewhere, are blessed and any losses from this thing minimum.
The true villain in this has no opinions one way or the other and could care less how and when it got here. It aims to feed on us.
Last edited by kingcat; 04-08-2020 at 10:33 AM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Well, as I’ve said many times, we just disagree on it.
I do think Trumps early actions are to blame. He was being told the severity and he largely ignored it early (at least publicly) for political reasons. He spread false information ( with the help of Fox News) and caused millions of people to not take this nearly as serious as they should have.
He and Fox News made the Coronavirus a political ploy by the Democrats (“their next hoax”) and many many people infected others and were infected unknowingly because of it.
Prove to me that he was "told the severity", and apparently repeatedly based on your language.
The article I linked today says that Trump was never given the memos or audience with people saying it would be bad.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Ok. But you and I both know it won't matter. I can show example after example. But there will always be an excuse or justification or reason why it doesn't matter. But, I will gladly link.
~Puma~
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