Home defense shotgun

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks very much. I do not want to wait that long, but I am enamored with that gun, which is really weird for me as I have not laid d finger on it yet, but comparing it to all others in that price range, I am stuck on getting it rather than settling for something else.

At least knowing their is a light at the end of the tunnel o the pistol is better than not knowing anything about the shotgun. The company does not have a timeline for the one I want. May wind up with something else on that front..

sigh

[CitizenBBN]

For you revolver lovers, her is a unique weapon. Tarus has a 357/38 special/9mm luger out for sale. 1 ported barrel fits all, and you swap out the cylinder to accommodate the 9mm rounds.

It has a niche and it might fit yours, especially if you have a dirty harry fetish.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...iber-revolver/

Interesting, and I hear good things about the Taurus moon clips, but that's my big issue shooting rimless cartridges in a revolver. You have to clip them for it to work.

IMO the most versatile is definitely still the Judge, b/c it can shoot the .410 but also the 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, and the Raging judge also shoots the .454 Casull and supports the 3" 410 shells. All with the same cylinder, etc.

But it is interesting to pare the 9mm with the 357/38. I guess my question is what it gives the shooter other than cool (not that there's anything wrong with that lol).

It is unique, and I do love revolvers. OK, you talked me into it.

[dan_bgblue]

Well you do go from break your wrist 357 mag to a sweet shooting 9mm in less than 2 minutes and it all fits in the same holster.

[Darrell KSR]

Not in the market right now, but the Judge is the ET weapon I'll be interested in someday. Just love the 410 defense loads.

[dan_bgblue]

Not in the market right now, but the Judge is the ET weapon I'll be interested in someday. Just love the 410 defense loads.

Only get to use it in the summer time as if the perp is wearing a coat or even a hoodie the .410 pellets won't push thru the fabric.

[KeithKSR]

Well you do go from break your wrist 357 mag to a sweet shooting 9mm in less than 2 minutes and it all fits in the same holster.

Plus, 9mm is way cheaper to shoot. Even with recent shortages I found a 250 round bucket of 9mm for just under $52.

[Darrell KSR]

Hang on

[Darrell KSR]

Only get to use it in the summer time as if the perp is wearing a coat or even a hoodie the .410 pellets won't push thru the fabric.

OK, I'm on my computer now...I'll see if I can "pretty this up" a little.

The PDX defense loads aren't "pellets," per se. But to give a bit of an introduction to the defense loads, I thought the better way to show it was through a test of 7 different .410 loads as defense load possibilities. The following is a cut and paste excerpts from an article linked at the bottom. If you want to skip to the PDX defense load, it's listed at 6. Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 .410 Bore
2.5-inch S410PDX1, $11.47/10.

"We started off by showing how ineffective birdshot was for self defense, then moved on to the main event: in-close patterning and penetration for buckshot, BBs, defense discs, and slugs.

It is quite interesting that when we test ammunition, some participants, observers, and readers get bent out of shape. They have told us that, sure, the ballistic test shows one thing, but my friend has shot clean through a deer with . An anecdotal incident may in fact be true, and it may run counter to our results. But our basis for testing ammo has proven profitable in testing individual loadings and comparing one to the other, as well as comparing one caliber to the other.

It is possible to compare loads and render recommendations based on their performance, and it is also possible to test a single load and determine if the penetration and expansion standards are adequate for the intended mission.

We are not delicate flowers who get our knickers in a wad when a favorite caliber doesn't cut the mustard. There is something for everyone, and we simply tell it like it is. Our results are verifiable and repeatable. Variances in velocity and accuracy are par for the course, but any reader who runs his own tests should find the general results will be very close to our results. We point out that we do not have an adversarial relationship with the ammunition makers; rather, we are often in awe of the efficiency and consistency of the ammunition we test. But there has to be a best choice.

When it comes to the .410 bore shotgun shell, we found a range of opinions among our raters. The majority of the raters had little use for the .410, with one referring to it as useless. However, once we had gathered some facts, most of us came to a different opinion of the .410 by the time the test was over. With the one having no use for the .410, another of our raters was adamant concerning the role of .410 slugs, as an example, in killing fox, coyote, and other predators. In an accurate shotgun, the .410 slugs kills better than any .22 rifle, he mentioned, while offering greater safety. The slug breaks up and also has less range than the rimfire rifle he said. In this niche, there is nothing quite as capable as the .410, he asserted. Our experiments confirmed his assessment of the .410 slug.

Another interesting development is the introduction of the Taurus Judge in 45 Colt and .410 bore. This handgun has elicited different reactions from different folks. Many experienced shooters who favor the big bore .45 Colt or .44 Magnums took a look at the Judge and felt that it was ungainly and would never be useful. While this is a strongly held opinion by many professionals, sales of the Judge are very strong. One of our raters noted that practically everyone in his circle of shooting friends owns one Judge or the other version. Sadly, the Judge cannot be offered in smoothbore form because short-barrel shotguns are illegal, and a smoothbore pistol is a short-barrel shotgun, according to federal law. But those who own slug guns will tell you that shot being swirled around in rifling is seldom, if ever, capable of producing a good pattern.

With all of this background, we elected to test several .410 bore shotshells. All of our testing was done with a .410 shotgun, not a pistol. If the load doesnt perform well in the shotgun, it will be much less effective in the handgun. The projectile launcher was a standard Mossberg .410 pump with 24-inch barrel. Hardly a tactical model, this shotgun features a gold trigger, vent rib, and solid smooth action. Overall, everyone was suitably impressed with this light, fast-handling shotgun.

....

We next shot a load designed for personal defense, the Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 .410 Bore 2.5-inch S410PDX1, $11.47/10. This combo load included both buckshot and discs and cost $1.15 apiece (CTD No. 8-WIN-S410PDX1). Then we rounded out the test with Winchester Super-X Slugs X413RS5 3-inch .25-oz. Rifled Slug, $5.02/5. They were $1 apiece (CTD No. 2-WNX413RS5).

Here's how the rounds performed in our tests:

1. Birdshot: Estate Cartridge High Velocity
Hunting Load .410 Bore HV4103 3-inch
Max dr. eq., 11/16 oz. No. 6s, $11.94/25

Our Team Said: Birdshot should not be your load choice for personal defense. We could have picked nearly any hunting load to illustrate how poorly birdshot penetrates, so dont take away that Estate is a bad shell. Its actually quite a good upland bird choice.
GUN TESTS GRADE: D


2. Federal Premium Personal Defense .410 Bore
PD4122JGE-000 2.5-inch 000 Buckshot, $12.40/20

Our Team Said: Great performance for self defense, but we rated the Federal load a step behind the Winchester 3-inch buckshot choice. The Federal was slightly cheaper than the Winchester personal defense load, though pricing can vary.
GUN TESTS GRADE: B+


3. Winchesters Super X .410 Bore B41000
2.5-inch #000 Buck, $4.88/5.


Our Team Said: This Winchester 2.5-inch load was less powerful than its stablemate, so we think the 3-inch load is a better choice.
GUN TESTS GRADE: C


4. Golden Bear .410 Bore AG41B5 #4 Buck
3-Inch Magnum, $3.49/5

Our Team Said: It was easy to like the pattern, the lightest felt recoil of any load tested, and the inexpensive price. But the Golden Bear 2.5-inch load was noticeably less powerful than some of the others.
GUN TESTS GRADE: C


5. Winchester Super-X .410 Bore XB413
3-inch 000 Buck, $5.91/5

Our Team Said: In a contest between the Winchester 3-inch load and the 2.5-inch Federal Handgun Load, we noted that the Winchester load has the greater payload and energy, although its velocity is lower. Next you have to compare the Winchester buckshot load to the Winchester PDX. This is more difficult. The 000 buckshot load has virtually the same penetration as a 12-gauge load, but with a much lighter payload. This means shot placement is vital, and that means a tight pattern at close range and adequate penetration. All the buckshot balls did not penetrate 36 inches, but one or two did. The PDX load has a respectable mixed payload. The PDXs BB shots demonstrated adequate penetration, while the slugs demonstrated consistently good penetration. The flat disk would disrupt or excise tissue more cleanly than a round ball. We were by no means unanimous on this decision, but the weighted vote gave the PDX the nod.
GUN TESTS GRADE: A

6. Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 .410 Bore
2.5-inch S410PDX1, $11.47/10.

This is a load we tested with great expectation. More expensive and with greater T&E in each shell, the PDX contains an interesting payload. However, it is only slightly more expensive in the total picture. The PDX is worthwhile if there is an advantage. There are 12 plated BBs and three cylinder-bore projectiles. The payload is over 300 grains. The PDX is intended to give a swarm of pellets at close range while offering a solid projectile for use at longer range. The result is the largest pattern at 7 yards, 7 by 3 inches with the flat disks grouping into about 3 inches and the rest taken up with the 12 BB shots.

Our Team Said: With this load we feel we have penetration in the ideal range for personal defense without risking overpenetration. The greatest distance traveled by a single BB pellet was 24 inches. The slugs went 18 inches. This good performance, with a good payload and pattern. This is a true personal defense load rather than a hunting or pest control load. In the days of the Old West, there was a legendary shotgun load that was comprised of a roll of dimes. It was claimed this load was extremely deadly. This would have been an expensive proposition, and while there may be truth to the legend, we have no idea. The Winchester disk may be the modern equivalent.
GUN TESTS GRADE: A


7. Winchester Super-X Slugs X413RS5
3-inch .25-oz. Rifled Slug, $5.02/5

Our Team Said: The slug certainly has its merits as a home-defense round. Velocity and energy are excellent, more than we would have guessed before beginning the test program. The slug is the least likely of the loads tested to overpenetrate, aside from the birdshot. Still, a shotgun is a shotgun, and it uses shot. The slug performs well and shoots to the point of aim with excellent accuracy. It is an option that cannot be discounted. In the end the .410 shotgun seems very useful for personal defense. The raters agree that a slightly built person or youth would be well served with the .410 shotgun if they simply cannot handle the 12 gauge. As for the rest of us, we enjoyed shooting the .410, and we think it would not be out of place as an all-round pest popper and personal-defense shotgun.
GUN TESTS GRADE: B+

https://www.gun-tests.com/ammo/check...for-defense-2/

[Darrell KSR]

I messed that cut and paste up badly, but I was trying to get a blurb on one of the PDX defense load for Dan. I saw that one that included bird shot pellets and the like and tried to include it as well for contrast from the defense loads.

FWIW, I think it's an ideal truck or anti-carjack gun and load.

By the way, the review above was for the 2.5 inch. The 3" version contains 4 plated defense disks, 16 plated bb's, rather than 3 & 12. Taurus makes a Judge that will chamber 3" ones (but not all of them do).

[dan_bgblue]

Anyone interested in a Walther Creed, I found this deal on the net.

$269.89 Limit 3.

I have almost picked up the phone 3 or 4 times to call in an order, and I may still do it later today

https://www.cdnnsports.com/walther-creed-9mm.html

[KeithKSR]

I messed that cut and paste up badly, but I was trying to get a blurb on one of the PDX defense load for Dan. I saw that one that included bird shot pellets and the like and tried to include it as well for contrast from the defense loads.

FWIW, I think it's an ideal truck or anti-carjack gun and load.

By the way, the review above was for the 2.5 inch. The 3" version contains 4 plated defense disks, 16 plated bb's, rather than 3 & 12. Taurus makes a Judge that will chamber 3" ones (but not all of them do).

The problem in my area is .410 ammo isn’t very plentiful.I didn’t realize how hard it was to find until I bought my daughter one of those Rossi single shot .410/.22 combos with interchangeable barrels. Right now most types of personal defense ammo is hard to get. A local pawn shop that sells ammo told me they sold a year’s ammo inventory in one month.

[KeithKSR]

Thanks very much. I do not want to wait that long, but I am enamored with that gun, which is really weird for me as I have not laid d finger on it yet, but comparing it to all others in that price range, I am stuck on getting it rather than settling for something else.

At least knowing their is a light at the end of the tunnel o the pistol is better than not knowing anything about the shotgun. The company does not have a timeline for the one I want. May wind up with something else on that front..

sigh

I saw a couple of semiauto 12s similar to the Charles Daly at a pawn shop/gun shop this week. They were both priced at $369. I think one was the TriStar Raptor. Watched some videos on it and it seems to function well. One guy had a charging handle issue and the company sent another one out. Another guy evidently didn’t check to be sure his choke tube was properly tightened and lost it off the end of the barrel. A new choke tube fixed that issue, like the Charles Daly it takes Benelli choke tubes.

I’m not sure what brand the other was, it also looked very similar. My glasses were steamed up from the mask, so reading info off the barrel was impossible. I’ll go back for a closer look if the CD doesn’t get to where it can be ordered.

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks Keith. Do not go to a lot of trouble, but any info you come up with will be appreciated

[dan_bgblue]

I do not know the rules about buying from a pawn shop. Does it proceed just like a gun shop? If I were to buy from them over the phone, do they have to send it to a FFL location and me pick up from there?

[dan_bgblue]

CBBN, you have anything coming up at an auction that any of us may like?

[KeithKSR]

I do not know the rules about buying from a pawn shop. Does it proceed just like a gun shop? If I were to buy from them over the phone, do they have to send it to a FFL location and me pick up from there?

Pawn Shops that sell firearms are licensed FFL dealers. Several of the Pawn Shops in my area are also dealers.

Bud’s is now listing a Citadel Warthog, it looks nearly identical to the Charles Daly. https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_...12+ga+20+4%2b1

I’ve not done any research on it yet, but assume it is a Turkish import.

[dan_bgblue]

These clones are made in both China and Turkey, and are imported by Tristar.

Chas Daily only imports the ones made in Turkey and htey are a bit different than the Chicom ones

[KeithKSR]

These clones are made in both China and Turkey, and are imported by Tristar.

Chas Daily only imports the ones made in Turkey and htey are a bit different than the Chicom ones

Linberta is one of the Turkish imports. The videos I have seen of the Turkish guns all seem to be pretty positive.

[dan_bgblue]

Linberta is still showing out of stock and it looks identical to the Chas Daly pic in the online add

[KeithKSR]

Dan, here is a Palmetto State Q&A With info on the DAGR that popped up on my YouTube stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHHYkSxHweU

[dan_bgblue]

Thank you Very Much

[Darrell KSR]

The problem in my area is .410 ammo isn’t very plentiful.I didn’t realize how hard it was to find until I bought my daughter one of those Rossi single shot .410/.22 combos with interchangeable barrels. Right now most types of personal defense ammo is hard to get. A local pawn shop that sells ammo told me they sold a year’s ammo inventory in one month.

Keith, I think the PDX-1 defense load is pretty available. I haven't been in local stores in a couple of months, but they had them on the shelf, and a couple of mail order places like Midway have them in stock. Regular 410 shotgun shells may be more difficult, but if you don't mind plunking down $15 for 10 shells, the defense load is around.

But scarcity of ammo is why I really like my two 9mm handguns. It seems like that will be around when nothing else will. I almost got rid of my Smith and Wesson 39-2 some ago, but decided to keep it and glad I did. It's not my most practical, limited capacity, not terribly concealable, but it is such a good shooting 9mm handgun.

[dan_bgblue]

That was awesome. Projection for initial release of the 1st basic model at the #299.00 price point is 2 to 3 weeks, and I go the impression that they will start shipping in 2 weeks if something does not blow up. They are not taking any pre completion orders.

Thanks again Keith. That made up my mind for me and I am a happy camper.

[KeithKSR]

Keith, I think the PDX-1 defense load is pretty available. I haven't been in local stores in a couple of months, but they had them on the shelf, and a couple of mail order places like Midway have them in stock. Regular 410 shotgun shells may be more difficult, but if you don't mind plunking down $15 for 10 shells, the defense load is around.

But scarcity of ammo is why I really like my two 9mm handguns. It seems like that will be around when nothing else will. I almost got rid of my Smith and Wesson 39-2 some ago, but decided to keep it and glad I did. It's not my most practical, limited capacity, not terribly concealable, but it is such a good shooting 9mm handgun.

Self defense load are always significantly higher than standard rounds. In this area ammo is still flying off the shelves. I was at Rural King midweek and was going to pick up some Aguila .22 they had on sale for $2.29/box of 50. They didn’t have a single box of it. They also didn’t have any 9 mm, and the only 5.56 they had was in an overpriced bulk box. They did have some 2 3/4” 12 ga 00 buck for $3.99/box of 5 shells. They didn’t have any .410 of any kind, no 20 ga shells, no 12 gauge beyond the 00 buck. They had less than 20 boxes of the 00 buck. I picked up two boxes of the buckshot, which was the limit. They did have a single box of .30 Carbine, which is normally harder to find. Anything else they had was low in quantity, 5 boxes or less, and not in popular calibers.

The Judge seems to have driven the .410 self defense load innovation. Prior to that the .410 loads were mostly field loads for rabbit, squirrels, and birds like grouse and pheasant.

[KeithKSR]

That was awesome. Projection for initial release of the 1st basic model at the #299.00 price point is 2 to 3 weeks, and I go the impression that they will start shipping in 2 weeks if something does not blow up. They are not taking any pre completion orders.

Thanks again Keith. That made up my mind for me and I am a happy camper.

This place has some good prices on Glock mags. With Glock compatible magazines you can boost capacity to with the 17 round or 33 round magazines.

https://gunmagwarehouse.com/all-maga...tic--9mm-luger

[Darrell KSR]

Self defense load are always significantly higher than standard rounds. In this area ammo is still flying off the shelves. I was at Rural King midweek and was going to pick up some Aguila .22 they had on sale for $2.29/box of 50. They didn’t have a single box of it. They also didn’t have any 9 mm, and the only 5.56 they had was in an overpriced bulk box. They did have some 2 3/4” 12 ga 00 buck for $3.99/box of 5 shells. They didn’t have any .410 of any kind, no 20 ga shells, no 12 gauge beyond the 00 buck. They had less than 20 boxes of the 00 buck. I picked up two boxes of the buckshot, which was the limit. They did have a single box of .30 Carbine, which is normally harder to find. Anything else they had was low in quantity, 5 boxes or less, and not in popular calibers.

The Judge seems to have driven the .410 self defense load innovation. Prior to that the .410 loads were mostly field loads for rabbit, squirrels, and birds like grouse and pheasant.

Gracious. Not a bad idea to stock up when it gets available, for sure.

[dan_bgblue]

This online store has some .410 shells available in limited quantities. The have some double aught, bird shot, discs, and slugs.

https://ammo.com/shotgun/410-ammo

[KeithKSR]

Dan, I got over to Ashland today and talked to the Charles Daly dealer. They said that the Charles Daly semiauto isn’t in stock at their shop and they ran the UPC and the computer shows the warehouse is out of stock. They said things are beginning to get moving again and to keep checking back with them. They told me when they can get one of them my price will be about $245.

I did lay my mitts on the Legacy Citadel Warthog. They had it priced for $369 and the guy told me that it is nearly identical to the CD, both come from Turkey and he said they were likely made in the same factory with the differences being the specs for each importer. The Warthog they have only comes with one choke tube. The one Buds sells is supposed to come with five tubes, and the Charles Daly is supposed to come with three. Choke tubes start out at about $30 and go up from there, so that may factor in your decision.

The Bud’s version of the Citadel has the 20” barrel, which could double as a turkey gun with an extra full or turkey choke tube. They show available serial numbers on the Bud’s website, but show none available in their three stores. I’m not sure what the story is there, perhaps they are in the process of shipping them to stores?

[KentuckyWildcat]

If anyone sees any Hornady Black in 7.62x39 post it here please. Down to my last 15 or so rounds in that.

I have plenty of Wolf. But I prefer to hunt with Hornady.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[KeithKSR]

If anyone sees any Hornady Black in 7.62x39 post it here please. Down to my last 15 or so rounds in that.

I have plenty of Wolf. But I prefer to hunt with Hornady.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

I was just in the Ashland Rural King, they had some of the better 7.62x39 in stock. They didn’t have a lot of any of it, but had a few boxes of three or four different types. I think one of them was Hornady. They had lots of 12 gauge in sizes 7.5 and 8. They had a few boxes of 12 gauge #2 steel, and had a dozen or so 12 gauge mini shells, they had about three boxes of buck. They had some limited 20 gauge. No boxes of .410 of any kind. They did have Armscor .22 LR for $1.99. They had some .40, .38, .357. They had about a dozen boxes of .30 carbine. They had a few boxes of Two different types of self defense 9mm. It was the fullest I had seen their ammo shelves since the pandemic began.

I forgot to mention when I was at the gun shop earlier they had just put out 20,000 rounds of Fiocchi 9mm FMJ, priced at $12.95 a box/50. They expect it to be gone by the end of the day today.