And as GM became financially stable, it’s largest investment went to China.....so while that money was largely paid back, it didn’t necessarily benefit American worker.
Originally Posted by Doc
And as GM became financially stable, it’s largest investment went to China.....so while that money was largely paid back, it didn’t necessarily benefit American worker.
No, my point is that NONE of us know what is happening behind closed doors. Not you. Not me. Not Fox News. Not MSNBC. So everything you are saying is just narrative. Its not factual. Every link you have posted is from Fox News. Both sides are doing it. They are leaking to the media that will report what they want to.
Do I agree with that and think its stupid? Its completely stupid. Especially right now.
But its happening on BOTH sides. That's the point.
Mitch taking a vote when he knew it would fail was straight up politics. It was a move to create exactly what is happening on this board. Get people thinking its the Dems fault and get them to cave on things Republicans want. Both sides want things. Both sides are playing politics. Both sides are dumb.
But the bottom line is that this is going to pass. And soon. And its all something for Fox News to talk about because they can't talk about the utter failure of Trump early in this crisis.
~Puma~
I wish that was true. But it won't be. In a few days from now after this passes everyone will be touting their bipartisan leadership...how this was a unanimous vote, etc. MSNBC will be talking about the leadership of Schumer and Pelosi and Fox News will be touting the leadership of Trump and Mitch.
Count on it.
~Puma~
I agree with this for the most part btw. I think the airlines, cruise companies, etc will and should get relief.
~Puma~
Keep drinking that Kool-Aid.
Both sides are doing it.
Btw, this affects very real people in my life as well. But when we are talking about a 2 TRILLION dollar bill, I am all for them taking a few days to get it right. I would think those that consider themselves "conservative" would think they should as well.
Again, this will get passed soon. It will be bipartisan. And it will likely be unanimous. That is more powerful and important than rushing a barely passed bill with tons of flaws in it (and "flaw" would be determined by the 50% of Americans that are a part of one party or another).
~Puma~
Don't insult my intelligence by suggesting I just take whatever Fox News turns out. Or any other media. I've been reading between the lines a long time.
Are you denying all those things are in the House bill? Simple question.
If those things aren't in there then fine, the reports are wrong. But if they are in there, and they are, then there's no "oh we don't really know" in this at all.
And normally I agree it's on BOTH sides, but this time it isn't. The GOP bill is very clean, the House response has been a joke.
Please point out the politics the GOP has inserted into this. The bill is top to bottom funding for the crisis. There may be debates about how to use it, but it's all funding for the crisis. The GOP voted for Phase II Without this messing around, and now their bill for Phase III is being met with diversity requirements and funding for the arts.
Yes this will pass. WHEN WILL IT PASS? that's kinda the question.
The Democrats killed a vote that was procedural just so they could open debate on Monday. Not the bill, just the slot for debate.
They needed to approve that and then negotiate the only real legit sticking point in the bill, which is the oversight for the $500 billion in corporate loans and grants. They could have done that as other debate proceeded and without the House starting all their process including all this bullshit in it.
that's how it should have worked. Then by monday night the debate window is over, they've negotiated some kind of oversight on the corporate money and by Monday night or today they have a vote and it's done. Sunday's vote was just procedural. Should have been an easy vote, and Mitch thought he had the votes until Schumer nixed it.
it would show Washington working together, it would give confidence and we'd be closer to answers.
I'm not spewing Fox News or deflecting from Trump. I'm talking to Washington and Frankfort trying to make business decisions, decisions being held up by absolute political crap that doesn't need to be happening.
But nice try at deflecting.
Last edited by CitizenBBN; 03-24-2020 at 12:15 PM.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I'm not insulting your intelligence. I am telling you that what you are saying is EXACTLY what Fox News is saying. Like exactly. And you are linking article after article from Fox News.
Mitch knew when he called that vote that he didn't have the votes. That was straight up a political move. Both sides are doing it.
When will it pass? Ask them. But if I was guessing...late tonight or tomorrow at the latest.
~Puma~
Here is a NOT Fox News article by the WSJ which is generally moderate/conservative:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/negotia...ge-11585053060
Based on that, the only hold up now is money for agriculture.
Notice that there wasn't mention of Green New Deal stuff, etc. That's Fox News stuff.
"The two sides were approaching an agreement on one of the primary remaining sticking points: oversight on $500 billion that Republicans had proposed to allocate to aid distressed businesses. Democrats had sought controls on those funds, which include loans made directly by the Treasury Department and a backstop for losses in Federal Reserve lending facilities."
Last edited by ukpumacat; 03-24-2020 at 12:26 PM.
~Puma~
Damn insulting to suggest I'm so stupid that my positions and arguments are coming from "drinking Kool Aid". It suggests I don't analyze this on my own or otherwise conduct thorough research, all of which is wrong. I've been in this game a very long time, and I know how politics works as well as anyone.
Oh, and this bill already took a week of work with 5 Senate committees. The only real sticking point was oversight of the corporate money. A fair sticking point but one that would be easily enough negotiated Sunday and Monday. The Democratic rank and file were pretty much on board with this by the weekend, just a few points left to work out.
When the House passed Phase II the Senate just voted it through without the extra 'days to get it right', b/c it was the right thing to do. The GOP thought it was flawed as well, but it was more important to get things done.
Now suddenly we need to "get it right" by posturing with a House bill that has all kinds of unrelated crap in it.
Your standard for "flaw" is a laughable insult to anyone's intelligence when you just said above that this was just normal negotiation and posturing. The bill is imperfect, but the response of bringing back Obamaphones and one day voter registration doesn't address those "flaws" in any way, it only divides and prolongs the process at this point.
Now you're just playing for your team, not holding both sides to the same standard. You accused Trump of "playing politics" and that was bad, but now when your side does it it's all OK. I find that boring and hypocritical, so I'm done with it.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
So one of us (me) is saying BOTH sides are doing it and its stupid. And one of us (you) continuously says only the Dems are doing it. But I am the one "playing for my team". Uh huh.
I have said about 4 times BOTH sides are doing it and its stupid. But UNFORTUNATELY, its how bipartisan deals get done. This is a HUGE, bipartisan, 2 Trillion dollar deal. Its going to take time and give and take on both sides to get it right.
And again, this is all two days of message board fodder. This deal is going to get done. Likely today. And none of this will matter in a week from now. None of it.
~Puma~
Which is what I've said all day. The other stuff is in the House bill, and that's Pelosi. The only Senate sticking point was the oversight, and we knew that as of this weekend.
But Pelosi and Schumer killed the vote to proceed on Sunday so they could work out that last part, and used the House bill full of crap as their leverage.
yes it was posturing, but it's not a time for posturing. It's a time to be serious and hammer out the last details without all that crap, and get a deal done.
that's not "Fox News", a convenient ploy but also the logical fallacy of ad hominem btw, it's bringing crap to the table that is useless and divisive when all they needed to work out was the oversight.
And since the Senate can't move this bill without the Democrats, that was going to work out inevitably without the political side show that was Pelosi trying to a) gain stature in this process and b) get other concessions outside of the virus package of aid.
All she did was hold this process up and cause more resentment and divisiveness, just after the GOP had done just the opposite and voted for a "flawed" House bill for Phase II.
Will it work out? Sure it will, but you yourself said the move was nothing but regular politics. This is no time for regular politics. It's bad form and bad for a country trying to come together, not splinter further apart.
It was a) totally unnecessary, even by your own admission, and b) divisive and delaying. So how do you defend it given your position that this was the only main sticking point (which I agree with) and that it was going to work out anyway ( also true b/c the Senate Democrats obviously have to agree no matter what the House does)?
The House's involvement was just an anchor, an attempt by Pelosi to increase her power and get partisan concessions. ANd that's wrong.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
And Mitch's ploy of calling a vote he knew would fail yesterday was not politics?
Yes, we BOTH agree that Dems are playing politics. Posting it over and over again using different language doesn't change the fact that I've already admitted that.
Our disagreement is that BOTH sides are doing it. You keep reposting what Dems are doing. And have said over and over its only the Dems. I do not agree. Its both sides.
~Puma~
Any time you have time point out the GOP's politics in this Phase III bill. Other than the oversight question, which I listed when I started, it's clean.
Second, yes it does matter in a week. American businesses are on the clock, and every day we don't get these funds in place more people go on unemployment. How many are impacted? I have no idea, but every small business in America is looking at cash in the bank and payroll and deciding when to lay off. Every day does in fact matter right now.
And it matters long term b/c it's another division at a time we could show cooperation. As someone who has claimed Trumps divisive nature is destructive I'm surprised you dismiss divisiveness so easily in a time of real crisis.
When Trump echoes the positions of half of this country he's "divisive". When Pelosi interjects this nonsense into a crisis funding effort for the US economy it's all just acceptable politics.
No, it's divisive, and will piss off a LOT of people. Some who follow Fox, OK, but also a lot of middle of the road Americans who know this is no time for such things.
If Trump had called for funding of the wall and more deportations to respond to this crisis, even if none of that was taken up in the Senate and didn't delay the funding by one minute, he'd have been roasted to high heaven for playing politics and being divisive as a leader, and I'm betting you'd have agreed with that response, and I would have as well fwiw.
But if Pelosi does it then it's all OK and just good negotiation strategy, despite her being a national leader as well. That's your double standard. If Trump "playing politics" in this is wrong (and you've said it is), then her doing it is wrong too.
But you never have said it's wrong. You've said it's all OK, won't mean anything in the end and is normal. Double standard.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
It was a procedural vote on Sunday to open debate. It wasn't on the bill itself.
Mitch killed it sunday night after he lost the votes for it to pass. He scheduled it b/c he at one time had the votes. Schumer and Pelosi and the leadership then sent out the word to kill it.
So that allowed him to reschedule it for Monday after the markets opened, which he did in hopes of getting the votes after they see the importance of moving forward.
That's a far cry from "playing politics". he was just trying to get open debate for the bill, not ram it down anyone's throat. He'd spent the last week with 5 committees with both sides involved getting it put together. The few sticking points could have been worked out as the debate continued on the floor.
There was no need to kill a procedural vote to open debate. Unless you want to really put the screws to the process of course.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
How do you know that is what Pelosi did? How do you know that she stepped in and she herself added those provisions? Where are you getting this info?
Because I just watched an interview with her and she said she did not do that. I have read articles by the WSJ and all over and no one mentions that.
I've seen you mention it. I've seen Fox News mention it. I heard Mitch from the Senate floor mention it.
So where are you getting this info?
~Puma~
Well then its settled. Mitch was not playing politics. Pelosi was.
~Puma~
After a drop in U.S. daily deaths, they are increasing again, substantially:
3-24-20.jpg
U really think players are going to duke without being paid over Kentucky?--Gilbert Arenas, 9/12/19
Just out of curiosity, if timing is of the essence on all of this and every day matters...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...c57_story.html
~Puma~
If you'd care to read the bill:
https://appropriations.house.gov/sit...DSUPP3_xml.pdf
Wish you would. Please find one thing I claimed was in there that isn't in there. Airline emissions are sec. 704. Kennedy Center is Sec. 76. Etc.
Care to read about the strategy? Let's pick a liberal source, not nasty Fox News:
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4...ase-3-stimulus
“This is a tremendous opportunity to restructure things to fit our vision,” Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) told lawmakers, according to a source on the call.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I read this last night before going to bed and probably shouldn't have. But it's a gripping, scary and sobering account of a NYC Columbia faculty member who fought Ebola and is now working as an ER doc in NYC.
-----------------------------------------------------
Craig Spencer MD MPH
Mar. 24, 2020 4 min read
Thank you everyone for your incredible messages of support and encouragement.♥️
Many of you asked what it was like in the ER right now. I want to share a bit with you. Please RT:
A Day in the Life of an ER Doc - A Brief Dispatch from the #COVID19 Frontline:
Wake up at 6:30am. Priority is making a big pot of coffee for the whole day, because the place by the hospital is closed. The Starbucks too. It's all closed.
On the walk, it feels like Sunday. No one is out. Might be the freezing rain. Or it's early. Regardless, that's good.
Walk in for your 8am shift: Immediately struck by how the calm of the early morning city streets is immediately transformed. The bright fluorescent lights of the ER reflect off everyone's protective goggles. There is a cacophony of coughing. You stop. Mask up. Walk in.
You take signout from the previous team, but nearly every patient is the same, young & old:
Cough, shortness of breath, fever.
They are really worried about one patient. Very short of breath, on the maximum amount of oxygen we can give, but still breathing fast.
You immediately assess this patient. It's clear what this is, and what needs to happen. You have a long and honest discussion with the patient and family over the phone. It's best to put her on life support now, before things get much worse. You're getting set up for that, but...
You're notified of another really sick patient coming in. You rush over. They're also extremely sick, vomiting. They need to be put on life support as well. You bring them back. Two patients, in rooms right next to each other, both getting a breathing tube. It's not even 10am yet.
For the rest of your shift, nearly every hour, you get paged:
Stat notification: Very sick patient, short of breath, fever. Oxygen 88%.
Stat notification: Low blood pressure, short of breath, low oxygen.
Stat notification: Low oxygen, can't breath. Fever.
All day...
Sometime in the afternoon you recognize you haven't drank any water. You're afraid to take off the mask. It's the only thing that protects you. Surely you can last a little longer - in West Africa during Ebola, you spent hours in a hot suit without water. One more patient...
By late afternoon, you need to eat. Restaurant across the street is closed. Right, everything is closed. But thankfully the hospital cafeteria is open. You grab something, wash your hands (twice), cautiously take off your mask, & eat as fast as you can. Go back. Mask up. Walk in.
Nearly everyone you see today is the same. We assume everyone is #COVIDー19. We wear gowns, goggles, and masks at every encounter. All day. It's the only way to be safe. Where did all the heart attacks and appendicitis patients go? Its all COVID.
When your shift ends, you sign out to the oncoming team. It's all #COVIDー19. Over the past week, we've all learned the signs - low oxygen, lymphopenia, elevated D-dimer.
You share concerns of friends throughout the city without PPE. Hospitals running out of ventilators.
Before you leave, you wipe EVERYTHING down. Your phone. Your badge. Your wallet. Your coffee mug. All of it. Drown it in bleach. Everything in a bag. Take no chances.
Sure you got it all??? Wipe is down again. Can't be too careful.
You walk out and take off your mask. You feel naked and exposed. It's still raining, but you want to walk home. Feels safer than the subway or bus, plus you need to decompress.
The streets are empty. This feels nothing like what is happening inside. Maybe people don't know???
You get home. You strip in the hallway (it's ok, your neighbors know what you do). Everything in a bag. Your wife tries to keep your toddler away, but she hasn't seen you in days, so it's really hard. Run to the shower. Rinse it all away. Never happier. Time for family.
You reflect on the fact that it's really hard to understand how bad this is - and how bad its going to be - if all you see are empty streets.
Hospitals are nearing capacity. We are running out of ventilators. Ambulance sirens don't stop.
Everyone we see today was infected a week ago, or more. The numbers will undoubtedly skyrocket overnight, as they have every night the past few days. More will come to the ER. More will be stat notifications. More will be put on a ventilator.
We were too late to stop this virus. Full stop. But we can slow it's spread. The virus can't infect those it never meets. Stay inside. Social distancing is the only thing that will save us now. I don't care as much about the economic impact as I do about our ability to save lives.
You might hear people saying it isn't real. It is.
You might hear people saying it isn't bad. It is.
You might hear people saying it can't take you down. It can.
I survived Ebola. I fear #COVIDー19.
Do your part. Stay home. Stay safe.
And every day I'll come to work for you.
https://threader.app/thread/1242302400762908685
U really think players are going to duke without being paid over Kentucky?--Gilbert Arenas, 9/12/19
So for clarity...That is the House bill. That was voted and approved on Saturday, correct?
~Puma~
One last post on here, made only in the interest of fairness:
Trump is a moron for suggesting this will loosen up by Easter. Unless he means Easter 2021.
This is a 60-90 day thing at a minimum at this point, and I'm hearing 6 months from some more internal sources.
I do think he's trying to encourage people, and he's right the economy is in dire straits if this continues more than a few weeks, but sadly I think that's exactly what we're going to see.
Regardless, he should be saying to take it seriously and that we'll turn this around, but not giving timeframes right now. That's totally irresponsible, though totally consistent with his "it's the greatest ever" approach to everything.
The good news is that policy wise nothing will happen with it.
Just so people don't think I'm just running around defending him. I have always thought he is an asshat, and absurd in his exaggerations, but I guess being POTUS is such a lousy job that few if any people of any intelligence really want the job.
And that's why I'm a Libertarian. The only answer to politics and government is to have as little of it as humanly possible, b/c it's never going to be a good thing.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board is generally conservative, the publication otherwise is quite liberal.
I saw an interview with a Dem senator (I don’t remember which one) on Sunday that said they had a deal and the votes were there to pass it. Then Pelosi arrived back in town and havoc resulted.
It was in the bill filed in the House.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-145388
No. It is a House Bill that was unveiled last night.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-145388Democrats are following through on their threat to go rogue with their own stimulus plan, unveiling a more than 1,400-page bill Monday night, packed with policy differences compared to the proposal Senate Republicans laid out.
After the GOP’s latest measure tanked twice during test votes in the Senate, House Democrats wrote a competing proposal to save the country from economic destruction at the hands of the coronavirus. The House measure would boost emergency funds for agencies, mandate "green" rules for airlines, eliminate a payroll tax suspension, kick in additional help for hospitals, schools and food banks, and more.
Trump has expressed hope to have some things back up and running, and that they will re-evaluate after the 15 dat period. He has also said to be prepared for A July-August time period.
One thing is certain, an extended shutdown isn’t really an option. It isn’t coincidental that Cuomo and Trump both talk about the need to get some segments of the economy moving again.
New York State with 1343 cases per million of State population. 48% of total cases in the US....
B4E134EC-6BA3-4FD1-B61C-D38AA10F5D8A.jpg
As I stated, I was not for the 2008 bailout however it is a false narrarive that the money went into the deep pockets of coeporate executive. It went to save a company that employeed thousands of workers, and the money was repaid
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
Clearly there are large areas of the country unaffected, and other areas not doing a good job (ie NY and WA). Here in FL we have 17 deaths whichnis relatively small and no doubt the closing of group settings has helped stem expected explosion. But at this time it is time to move out of defcon 1
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks