Bevin loses

[CitizenBBN]

Teachers do a lot, and need to be appreciated, and I sure don't want to put up with kids all day, but as far as hours go I guarantee all of my full time employees work more hours per year and none of us, me included, will get their pension or medical benefits.

The fix for education is privatization. School vouchers where parents can take their school tax money and vote those dollars themselves will fix a lot of ills, and the union will fight it to their dying breath.

The pension problem is exactly as puma stated, tons of money gets spent on overhead and administration, with very little getting to the actual teachers or students, and then they buy off that support with pension promises they haven't funded, and not just in Kentucky.

It's a political trick to promise benefits and be retired and out of office before the bill comes due. It's great at getting votes, lousy way to run anything.

[Catonahottinroof]

The issue for career teachers is its pension only. They do not pay into social security in Kentucky’s system. I do agree it’s bloated at the back end too. If you’ve worked the 27/27 1/2 years that is asked, you retire at 75% of your highest 5 years. That is a substantial sum when teachers at that amount of years can be at $75K a year, and principals are at $100K+ for their last 5 yrs of service.

[ukpumacat]

The issue for career teachers is its pension only. They do not pay into social security in Kentucky’s system. I do agree it’s bloated at the back end too. If you’ve worked the 27/27 1/2 years that is asked, you retire at 75% of your highest 5 years. That is a substantial sum when teachers at that amount of years can be at $75K a year, and principals are at $100K+ for their last 5 yrs of service.

Yep. Again, I am a bit too close to this to be unbiased. But I have literally been in the room where negotiations took place to give a tenured employee a significant raise just to force them to retire.
Meaning, they wanted the teacher/administrator gone and the only way they could get them to retire was to give them a large pay bump which raised their pension for the rest of their life (its a 3 year average in California btw so its easier to manipulate). The whole thing is just a mess.

[ukpumacat]

The fix for education is privatization. School vouchers where parents can take their school tax money and vote those dollars themselves will fix a lot of ills, and the union will fight it to their dying breath.

W tried and got killed for it. Its one area I agreed with him on.
Thankfully, this is happening in small ways though through charter schools. They deal with some of the same issues but they are largely free, paid for with tax dollars, but they have much more freedom in how they do things.
In California, we are seeing them everywhere. And what is interesting is its the private/Christian school that fight them existing more than anyone because they are taking students from them.
But they are incredibly popular (have waiting lists for years), test scores are through the roof, and parents/teachers seem to be much happier with them.

[Catfan73]

Not sure how it works everywhere Doc but here in Jefferson County teachers get paid for only about 180 days a year. The only way they get paid in the summer is to have the district break their salary up into 26 biweekly paychecks (they can choose to not do this). They can take most of the summer off if they choose to but it’s not a paid vacation as again, they only get paid for those contracted days. Most of the ones I know actually work in the summer somewhere to make extra money.

Their day doesn’t begin and end when the kids get off the bus and get back on either. The ones I know probably average 10 hour days and then more on the weekends. And maybe 20 minutes for lunch.

[Catonahottinroof]

What happens in Kentucky, and I’m sure other states too is starting another career post retiring. It’s referred to as “double dipping”. It’s happening with other Kentucky public servants, namely police and firefighters. While pension funds are looking to deter double dipping, I’m not sure that will ever happen as long as folks who are in the military who can retire in their 40s and start another career. It has to be allowed to compete....

Yep. Again, I am a bit too close to this to be unbiased. But I have literally been in the room where negotiations took place to give a tenured employee a significant raise just to force them to retire.
Meaning, they wanted the teacher/administrator gone and the only way they could get them to retire was to give them a large pay bump which raised their pension for the rest of their life (its a 3 year average in California btw so its easier to manipulate). The whole thing is just a mess.

[Doc]

Not sure how it works everywhere Doc but here in Jefferson County teachers get paid for only about 180 days a year. The only way they get paid in the summer is to have the district break their salary up into 26 biweekly paychecks (they can choose to not do this). They can take most of the summer off if they choose to but it’s not a paid vacation as again, they only get paid for those contracted days. Most of the ones I know actually work in the summer somewhere to make extra money.

Their day doesn’t begin and end when the kids get off the bus and get back on either. The ones I know probably average 10 hour days and then more on the weekends. And maybe 20 minutes for lunch.

Does not matter how often you get paid. I am talking annual salary so it does not matter if they get 1 check a year for $60,000 or 1 check daily for $164. Still comes out to 60K (on average for the USA). I do not believe that includes pensions etc..... 60K for a nonfull time job (I consider full time 40 hrs per week for 50 weeks a year) is pretty solid. As for how much on average they work per day, also immaterial. I know pretty much every profession short of a burger flipper works more hours than they are at work. Hell, I wish my day was 10 hrs long...but I don't count it as such. I don't include time I spend out of work working on work related things as part of my work schedule. Most professionals don't. I am at work 40 hrs a week because I am at work for hours. Does not include drive time, or work at home time or preparing for work, etc...nor does it include days where lunch is an option. Considering the time actually spent on the job, a 60K teacher extrapolated to a "full time" (ie 2000 hours per year) job, likely comes close to $80K. Again I have no issue with that what so ever. Just tired of the conception they are so underpaid, so underappreciated. And as Puma stated "Any criticism of the system always gets twisted as an assault on teachers." I have no criticism what so ever of teacher or their salaries. My criticism is of the pension plans given to them (in addition to their salary) by political candidates who eventually cost the tax payers. My pension plan will never burden a tax payer because it is private. I have no "defined benefit". My plan pays strictly what it earns. There is no guarantee to be paid X amount of dollars. That promise was made by politicians to teachers and guaranteed with taxpayer money. Our household has both. My wife is on a defined benefit. Pays based the average of her last 3 years....until the day she dies. Her's was granted by the federal government which means it was likely given to her by fools who lack any fiscal responsibility

[Catfan73]

I get it but I was just responding to what you said, which sounded a lot like you were saying most teachers work about seven hours a day nine months a year. I didn’t think you actually thought that though.

I just looked up the average teacher salary in Kentucky; it’s about $54,000 a year. Not too horrible but really not that much when one considers they’re required to have a master’s degree. I don’t know the actual figures but at 180 paid days a year and 8 hour days that averages out to $37.50 per hour. Stretch it out over 52 weeks and it drops to $26 an hour. Some states pay far less than Kentucky. It’s not a horrible job to be sure but you don’t see too many in the profession without a passion for it. They’re sure not in it for the money. And they don’t get social security so they need their pensions.

[ukpumacat]

Not that this matters, but its only 15 states where teachers do not get social security. Kentucky is a state that differs by school district (California is one of the 15).
However, the benefit is that they also don't have to pay into social security. So, if they do a good job investing that money it will likely be better than if they opted in.

I view that as a benefit personally and not a negative.

[ukpumacat]

It’s not a horrible job to be sure but you don’t see too many in the profession without a passion for it. They’re sure not in it for the money.

I totally agree. Like I said before, I think their starting salaries are simply too low. And their ending salaries (combined with pensions) are too high.
As Doc said, from a teachers perspective...all the power to them. Stay at it, get tenured, retire and get great benefits. Their union has done an outstanding job fighting for those things.
But from a holistic perspective, tenuring teachers ties the hands of many schools and Districts because they have teachers that have lost their passion and are ONLY doing it for money (retirement) and there is virtually nothing the school/District can do about it.

I've always told people...when you see a brand new school open up....DON"T GO! Stay at the old one. Because usually all the older teachers with seniority go to the new school with the bells and whistles and the old school get to hire passionate teachers to take their place.
I've had and seen some wonderful teachers who were passionate until they retired. But that is often not the case.

[Catonahottinroof]

If you’ve not been paying attention, KERS (KY teachers retirement) was about 5 years from insolvency prior to Bevin’s election. This was due to improper funding by the state and poor return on questionable investments the fund made. The blame game exists for who is at fault, but governors of both parties dropped the ball on this. Beshear 1 tried to get gaming passed to get funding for this, while he made an array of financial promises/giveaways that put the state in a bad place.
Bevin returned full funding to the teachers retirement. Solidified it a bit to the point it will not collapse with proper funding from this point on per the state auditor. I’m curious about the gaming question since Beshear 2 is making similar promises that his dad did.

Not that this matters, but its only 15 states where teachers do not get social security. Kentucky is a state that differs by school district (California is one of the 15).
However, the benefit is that they also don't have to pay into social security. So, if they do a good job investing that money it will likely be better than if they opted in.

I view that as a benefit personally and not a negative.

[ukpumacat]

If you’ve not been paying attention, KERS (KY teachers retirement) was about 5 years from insolvency prior to Bevin’s election. This was due to improper funding by the state and poor return on questionable investments the fund made. The blame game exists for who is at fault, but governors of both parties dropped the ball on this. Beshear 1 tried to get gaming passed to get funding for this, while he made an array of financial promises/giveaways that put the state in a bad place.
Bevin returned full funding to the teachers retirement. Solidified it a bit to the point it will not collapse with proper funding from this point on per the state auditor. I’m curious about the gaming question since Beshear 2 is making similar promises that his dad did.

Gotcha. Ya, I haven't paid much attention to the KY situation or other states. I just know the California situation well both personally and professionally.
What a mess that sounds like.

[Catfan73]

Bevin was kind of forced into finding ways to shore up the pension plan for a few more years though without putting it on the backs of the teachers. Fundamental changes still need to be made; the ball has basically just been punted downfield for awhile.

[Catonahottinroof]

Both of my parents have their retirement through the teacher retirement. As an only child, I have a vested interest in its solvency :/

[MickintheHam]

Not that this matters, but its only 15 states where teachers do not get social security. Kentucky is a state that differs by school district (California is one of the 15).
However, the benefit is that they also don't have to pay into social security. So, if they do a good job investing that money it will likely be better than if they opted in.

I view that as a benefit personally and not a negative.

You hit the nail on the head. Additionally, Teachers in the Commonwealth who passed on the 401(k) type option missed an opportunity of a lifetime, not only their lifetime but the lifetime of their heirs. There is a big difference between having the retirement money under your control and ownerships to invest vs. someone else owning and investing the funds. The latter wins when you die. The best thing that ever happened to me was having a 401(k). I won. My kids will win and my Grandkids should have opportunities they would never have had otherwise. The teachers' and state workers unions, once again, sold their members down the river.

[Catfan73]

I was just making the point that they have no safety net, so when Bevin started talking about their pensions it got really scary to those people. I’m sure a lot of them have 403b’s someone talked them into starting but many of them probably never worried about retirement before because of the state pension.