Syria

[Doc]

Dan, it's a very bad situation. Turkey absolutely will go to war against a Kurdistan nation, hell the tried to wipe them from the map in the early 1900s completely, yet we would like to see that as they create hegemony against other more dangerous regional powers.

So we're in a bad place. The Turks have already reached out to Russia for weaponry, and here they're a NATO nation with NATO/US nuclear missiles. They hate our support of the Kurds.

So if we help the Kurds build a nation we all but lose Turkey from NATO IMO, so we're in a Mexican standoff.

Now I think maybe that's where we need to stay on this one, that it's the best option. Trump probably sees that as not moving forward and pulled the trigger now.

Politically I think it's a big mistake for him to use his capital on this one right now. But is it the right move? Hard to say. The Kurds will now reach out to Russia I presume, but that's a problem for them b/c of Iran. The Kurds are where they've been for a century, short of any big ally to back them b/c everyone else has already chosen teams.

I wouldn't shed a tear if we did. They are led by a ruthless dictator (actually a true autocrat!). Its much like when the USA supported the Shah of Iran. Time to quit supporting thugs around the world.


As for the Kurds, I don't think they reach out to Russia. I think they reach out to the USA. I think that deal has been struck.

[Doc]

TBH, I am not seeing the "left" flip. I have seen a few come out and say things but its mostly the "right" flipping. I have never seen Fox News pundits quoted more in the last few days than they have been over this.
And I follow a bunch of "the left" on twitter. And most of them are just retweeting or commenting on Republicans negative comments.

But once again I come back to my original post....politically, this was just dumb to do right now. The last thing Trump needs or wants right now is to piss off the Republicans who are still backing him. He is about to be 20 Republican Senator votes away from being removed from office. I just don't get it.

There isn't a flip on the right. The right is typically against withdrawl from the middle east, be it Iraq or Syria or wherever. Is no shock that the GOP would be AGAINST getting out. Its what they do.

I agree in that I think it is not the best move. However you give too much credit to the level of support. The decision to exit and the decision to impeach are two totally different things. To Republicans, the impeachment is about overturning an election that Hillary lost. Most who are anti-impeach are not doing so because Trump follows lock step with the party. He has not for the last 3 years. It is why he is seen as "anti-swamp".

[Doc]

Isn’t that the way it works in the business world? Talk nice, make people feel at ease, but play hardball with negotiations.

I for one am tired of footing the bill to be the world peacekeepers.

BINGO.....footing the bills in dollars and lives.

[ukpumacat]

There isn't a flip on the right. The right is typically against withdrawl from the middle east, be it Iraq or Syria or wherever. Is no shock that the GOP would be AGAINST getting out. Its what they do.

I agree in that I think it is not the best move. However you give too much credit to the level of support. The decision to exit and the decision to impeach are two totally different things. To Republicans, the impeachment is about overturning an election that Hillary lost. Most who are anti-impeach are not doing so because Trump follows lock step with the party. He has not for the last 3 years. It is why he is seen as "anti-swamp".

Sorry, I think we are using "flip" in two different ways. I mean it as "flip out".

And yes, I obviously know the impeachment and the withdrawal are different and that one can support one without supporting the other. However, we don't live in a vacuum. It makes no sense to piss off the very people who are vocally supporting you.

It would be like me being a QB and dating the coach's daughter. The weekend I throw 5 INT's and the coach defends me isn't the best weekend to dump his daughter. I would probably endure for a few more weeks.

[CitizenBBN]

Sorry, I think we are using "flip" in two different ways. I mean it as "flip out".

And yes, I obviously know the impeachment and the withdrawal are different and that one can support one without supporting the other. However, we don't live in a vacuum. It makes no sense to piss off the very people who are vocally supporting you.

It would be like me being a QB and dating the coach's daughter. The weekend I throw 5 INT's and the coach defends me isn't the best weekend to dump his daughter. I would probably endure for a few more weeks.

Which is why it's so hard to accuse Trump of being some Machiavellian double agent with these deep plans and ties.

Really? This guy is engaging in some year's long master plan, or somehow able to hide things so bad Russia controls him as a secret agent? Are we talking about the same Donald Trump?

The guy can't shut his mouth, or control his impulses, or otherwise make a calculated political move beyond trolling people. He's the single worst candidate for the stuff he's accused of in the history of the office.

[Doc]

Sorry, I think we are using "flip" in two different ways. I mean it as "flip out".

And yes, I obviously know the impeachment and the withdrawal are different and that one can support one without supporting the other. However, we don't live in a vacuum. It makes no sense to piss off the very people who are vocally supporting you.

It would be like me being a QB and dating the coach's daughter. The weekend I throw 5 INT's and the coach defends me isn't the best weekend to dump his daughter. I would probably endure for a few more weeks.

Maybe I am naive but the two are two different things. Disagreeing with the Presidents policy and decision does not mean you should abandon your principles. I think most REASONABLE people, which excludes half of congress, are able to disagree with something and not be vindictive. In fact Lindsey Graham recently touched on this very topic:

Earlier in the interview, Graham reiterated his strong opposition to the president's decision to withdraw U.S. forces from Syria, but added that he will not support impeachment over the disagreement.

--link

[kingcat]

truth.jpg

In a 2015 interview with the right-wing news outlet Breitbart, Trump responded to a question about Turkey’s reliability in the fight against ISIS by saying he had a “little conflict of interest,” speaking of the Trump Towers in Istanbul.

[CitizenBBN]

truth.jpg

In a 2015 interview with the right-wing news outlet Breitbart, Trump responded to a question about Turkey’s reliability in the fight against ISIS by saying he had a “little conflict of interest,” speaking of the Trump Towers in Istanbul.

lol. So now he's a puppet of both Putin and Erdogan. So do they get him on odd and even days?

Meanwhile, the tens and hundreds of millions flowing to every opponent of Trump, also from foreign sources, is just changing the subject. Studying the world without context is great for reducing the variables, but lousy for reaching the right conclusions.

[kingcat]

Has nothing to do with being a puppet.

We are talking about the Syrian situation and Trump.

And so it has to do with an extremely viable Trump business interest that Erdogan partially controls. A "little conflict of interest" kept the President from speaking his mind on a Erdogan matter posed to him.
Why is it a joke to question if it could also apply here?
I guess one could argue he just didn't understand the situation in Syria and made a mistake allowing an invasion of an ally. Or that he and good ole Erdogan are just good friends so he couldn't say no.

Otherwise, absent the puppet thing, this is a very understandable and likely reason for it.
Certainly not a laughable idea, although I dont really mind.

[CitizenBBN]

Trump continues to be corrupt, now he's going to punish Turkey's economy in response to their Syria invasion.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/do...congress-syria

Just another example of him putting his personal financial interests ahead of the country.

Oh wait, this move would hurt his financial interests. Must be fake news.

This so far is playing out as expected, and not to anyone's favor. Not a good move.

[kingcat]

Trump continues to be corrupt, now he's going to punish Turkey's economy in response to their Syria invasion.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/do...congress-syria

Just another example of him putting his personal financial interests ahead of the country.

Oh wait, this move would hurt his financial interests. Must be fake news.

This so far is playing out as expected, and not to anyone's favor. Not a good move.

Then why do you believe he made the choice to allow Erdogan to invade the Kurds?

[Catonahottinroof]

He made that a campaign promise. It’s the same mistake Obama made leaving the vacuum in Iraq. Now Trump is leaving one in Syria....

Then why do you believe he made the choice to allow Erdogan to invade the Kurds?

[CitizenBBN]

Then why do you believe he made the choice to allow Erdogan to invade the Kurds?

B/c he campaigned on and has made it completely clear he thinks us being involved in permanent wars is a mistake. He said he was going to pull us out of these conflicts.

or he's corrupt and on the take for a hotel in Istanbul he doesn't even own but only gets paid for his name use. Yeah, that must be it.

And as a guy on the take he's sure brilliant. They looked at taking his name off it when he started the "Muslim ban", and he's now threatening to sanction Turkey which has twitter tags of "death to trump" trending in Turkey. So boy is he sure lining his pockets with this move.

[kingcat]

So that explains why he approves of an attack against our former allies? And actually put some of our service men and women in harms way?

One Army officer who has deployed to northeastern Syria and has knowledge of the situation said multiple rounds of 155 mm fire were launched from Turkey’s side of the border and that they had a “bracketing effect” in which shells landed on both sides of the U.S. outpost. “That’s an area weapon,” the officer said, noting its explosive effects. “That’s not something we ever would have done to a partner force.”

And I thought he was currently sending troops to Saudi Arabia? 1800 I believe.

I accept that you may believe in your answer, but, and I am sorry, but I'd find that laughable it were Obama or anyone else.
The Middle East itself is a permanent military undertaking.

To me, this would serve well as the definition of blind faith.

[Doc]

So that explains why he approves of an attack against our former allies? And actually put some of our service men and women in harms way?

One Army officer who has deployed to northeastern Syria and has knowledge of the situation said multiple rounds of 155 mm fire were launched from Turkey’s side of the border and that they had a “bracketing effect” in which shells landed on both sides of the U.S. outpost. “That’s an area weapon,” the officer said, noting its explosive effects. “That’s not something we ever would have done to a partner force.”

And I thought he was currently sending troops to Saudi Arabia? 1800 I believe.

I accept that you may believe in your answer, but, and I am sorry, but I'd find that laughable it were Obama or anyone else.
The Middle East itself is a permanent military undertaking.

To me, this would serve well as the definition of blind faith.

Turkey is our allie as well. Are we to take up arms against them? The USA has supported and continues to support the Kurdish people

It is an interesting narrative the the Kurds came to the USA's assistance to fight ISIS. We came to their aid and while it was beneficial to both sides, our mission was defeating ISIS and not defense of the Kurds. Yes, the Kurds assisted us in the defeat of Saddam Hussein as well but again, that was as much if not more to their benefit considering Saddams feeling towards the Kurds!

Trump has pledged to assist thru negotiations between the turks and the kurds. I am sure military support in the form of weapons will continilue as well.

The main difference between Obama's exit and Trump's is the level of threat for re-emmergence of ISIS or the Taliban. Do I think our exit is the right move? More "no" than "yes" but I also believe that if not now, when?

And I get your point that were it Obama, most would be against. Interesting concept. Now you know how the right feels about pretty much every aspect of the left approach to Trump! However most on the right are against the withdrawl. Meanwhile the left has come to the withdrawl is bad POV because they were all for withdrawl under Obama. So Trump is doing exactly what the left wanted 5 years ago but are now against it because it is championed by Trump. It reminds me of the Wall concept, where the left was for it years ago but now it is immoral. Or the need for secure borders. Or the seperation of children from families at the border. I could go on because the list is long of stances the left supported in the past that Trump now supports and the left now rejects

[CitizenBBN]

So that explains why he approves of an attack against our former allies? And actually put some of our service men and women in harms way?

One Army officer who has deployed to northeastern Syria and has knowledge of the situation said multiple rounds of 155 mm fire were launched from Turkey’s side of the border and that they had a “bracketing effect” in which shells landed on both sides of the U.S. outpost. “That’s an area weapon,” the officer said, noting its explosive effects. “That’s not something we ever would have done to a partner force.”

And I thought he was currently sending troops to Saudi Arabia? 1800 I believe.

I accept that you may believe in your answer, but, and I am sorry, but I'd find that laughable it were Obama or anyone else.
The Middle East itself is a permanent military undertaking.

To me, this would serve well as the definition of blind faith.

Show me where he's approved of Turkey's attack please. He threatened simultaneously to sanction Turkey if they attacked the Kurds and has proceeded with that threat.

For you to be right Trump has to be a corrupt Machiavellian genius who is covertly manipulating the world, and frankly you think a lot more of his intelligence and maturity than I do.

And yes the Middle East is a permanent military undertaking, and Trump thinks we need to not undertake it at all. he's not alone. You can disagree with the policy, and in this case I do, but it's a valid policy alternative and not some lunatic notion and certainly doesn't require some nefarious deep covert financial or other justification.

These conspiracy theories going mainstream is tiring and disturbing. Occam's Razor people.

[kingcat]

The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
October 6, 2019

Statement from the Press Secretary

Today, President Donald J. Trump spoke with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey by telephone. Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into Northern Syria. The United States Armed Forces will not support or be involved in the operation, and United States forces, having defeated the ISIS territorial “Caliphate,” will no longer be in the immediate area.

The United States Government has pressed France, Germany, and other European nations, from which many captured ISIS fighters came, to take them back, but they did not want them and refused. The United States will not hold them for what could be many years and great cost to the United States taxpayer. Turkey will now be responsible for all ISIS fighters in the area captured over the past two years in the wake of the defeat of the territorial “Caliphate” by the United States.

If that dont serve as an approval (or a Go right ahead) I don't know what does.

Yet, agreeing with the President is another matter entirely.

“They didn't help us in the Second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy as an example"
..Donald Trump on the Kurds

Trump tweeted Wednesday that the withdrawal involved roughly 50 service members. An administration official speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss details of U.S. involvement in the region described the number of soldiers involved to be between 50 and 100.
The president has repeatedly framed the decision as part of his broader goal of reducing U.S. military engagements oversees. But the same administration official rejected the idea that the soldiers involved are being withdrawn and instead said that the service members would be reassigned to other areas in Syria...USA Today

[CitizenBBN]

Would you prefer they be in the area when Turkey shells them? Your post above seemed to imply that was a bad thing.

So we tell Erdogan to not go in, and if he hits our troops we'll do what? Send more? Fight back and have armed conflict with a NATO ally?

What's your solution if Erdogan called PResident Kingcat and said he was going to invade?

So your theory is Trump removed the troops b/c of his financial ties with Turkey, ties he almost destroyed when he called for the ban on travel, and then he's going to impose sanctions with executive order on them for invading b/c somehow that's miraculously in his interests too?

what's his covert, brilliant end game for his own gain here? To piss off the people of Turkey so completely they send him cash or something?

[Doc]

what's his covert, brilliant end game for his own gain here? To piss off the people of Turkey so completely they send him cash or something?

Whatever his end game, it is an impeachable one

[CitizenBBN]

Whatever his end game, it is an impeachable one

He may come out smelling like a rose in this end game. Cease fire in place.

If he can pull this off it means he got US troops out as he promised, AND got a deal that stabilizes things (at least as much as American voters care it's stabilized) and maybe gets at least the same if not better relations with Turkey and the Kurds aren't wiped out.

We'll see if it works, the Kurds have yet to agree to pulling back, but if they do Trump could have the last laugh on this one.

In this case, for the sake of the Kurds and trying to somehow find a way to keep Turkey looking West versus East to Russia, I sure hope he gets this win.

[ukpumacat]

He may come out smelling like a rose in this end game. Cease fire in place.

If he can pull this off it means he got US troops out as he promised, AND got a deal that stabilizes things (at least as much as American voters care it's stabilized) and maybe gets at least the same if not better relations with Turkey and the Kurds aren't wiped out.

We'll see if it works, the Kurds have yet to agree to pulling back, but if they do Trump could have the last laugh on this one.

In this case, for the sake of the Kurds and trying to somehow find a way to keep Turkey looking West versus East to Russia, I sure hope he gets this win.

Oh, there is no doubt that’s what Trump and team is selling.
But, no.
Turkey already said today it’s not a “cease fire”. They are just on hold for 5 days.
On hold for what? For the Kurds to leave the area. ONLY THEN, they have said they will “cease fire” (which most don’t believe anyways).
What does it mean for the Kurds in the area? It means that for the thousands who live there, they have 5 days to pack up their homes and get out before being annihilated.
That’s not a cease fire. It’s a war ultimatum.

That’s why a Senior Military Official is “highly skeptical”:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey...ghly-skeptical

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, there is no doubt that’s what Trump and team is selling.
But, no.
Turkey already said today it’s not a “cease fire”. They are just on hold for 5 days.
On hold for what? For the Kurds to leave the area. ONLY THEN, they have said they will “cease fire” (which most don’t believe anyways).
What does it mean for the Kurds in the area? It means that for the thousands who live there, they have 5 days to pack up their homes and get out before being annihilated.
That’s not a cease fire. It’s a war ultimatum.

That’s why a Senior Military Official is “highly skeptical”:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey...ghly-skeptical

Im not naive. I get exactly what it is, and it's still a better deal than the Turks want to give b/c their last "war ultimatum" for the Kurds killed them by the basket full and many Turks still want to finish the job.

But their option to leave is on the table, and unless we go back it's their best option.

But the question is how it works politically in the US, and it just may work. If US soldiers aren't there and no one is getting massacred, it may sell. Refugees arent' as big an issue for voters, we've created millions of them the last 20 years in the Middle East and you never see it poll as an issue.

[UKHistory]

We keep our troops there and tell the Turks not to invade, the Kurds don’t have to move.

This move benefits Turkey, Iran and Russia

Yes Turkey is in NATO and Along with the United States it is the only country in the organization run by a man that sees himself as a dictator

Trump green lit the Turkey move, whether he knew it or not, when Mattis resigned and reaffirmed the ok with that call last week.

And while Turkey is in NATO, they don’t seem to share the same values we used to have.

Dark day for America. Dark day for the world.

[Doc]

He may come out smelling like a rose in this end game. Cease fire in place.

I am sure that too would be "impeachable" to some.

[CitizenBBN]

We keep our troops there and tell the Turks not to invade, the Kurds don’t have to move.

This move benefits Turkey, Iran and Russia

Yes Turkey is in NATO and Along with the United States it is the only country in the organization run by a man that sees himself as a dictator

Trump green lit the Turkey move, whether he knew it or not, when Mattis resigned and reaffirmed the ok with that call last week.

And while Turkey is in NATO, they don’t seem to share the same values we used to have.

Dark day for America. Dark day for the world.

I'm against the move, but in truth it was a complete stalemate and I imagine that as much as anything was behind Trump's thinking. Obama and every other administration has kicked this issue down the road, and honestly I would have too, but Trump doesn't think that way.

It benefits Turkey, I think it's a push at best for Iran b/c they don't want Turkey established in Syria either, and anything that keeps Turkey in the fold and NOT looking to Russia is a loss for Russia. The Turks have been teasing that move as leverage, and having them friendly with Russia is far more serious than having Iran friendly with them. Neither is good, one is worse.

[ukpumacat]

B/c he campaigned on and has made it completely clear he thinks us being involved in permanent wars is a mistake. He said he was going to pull us out of these conflicts.

or he's corrupt and on the take for a hotel in Istanbul he doesn't even own but only gets paid for his name use. Yeah, that must be it.

I just think he got played. And now its damage control.

[ukpumacat]

We keep our troops there and tell the Turks not to invade, the Kurds don’t have to move.

This move benefits Turkey, Iran and Russia

Yes Turkey is in NATO and Along with the United States it is the only country in the organization run by a man that sees himself as a dictator

Trump green lit the Turkey move, whether he knew it or not, when Mattis resigned and reaffirmed the ok with that call last week.

And while Turkey is in NATO, they don’t seem to share the same values we used to have.

Dark day for America. Dark day for the world.

Totally agree.

[CitizenBBN]

I just think he got played. And now its damage control.

I doubt he got played so much as he's hard headed and just doesn't listen to differing opinions. That's not good either, but I doubt Erdogan talked him into anything b/c he was rattling his economic saber right away.

[dan_bgblue]

One man's thoughts on potential outcomes of the situation in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Syria.

[ukpumacat]

“Cease Fire” didn’t last 24 hours.

https://twitter.com/afp/status/1185143021798592512?s=21