What would it take?

[ukpumacat]

So I have had two really interesting conversations in the last week that led me to want to post this on here.

First conversation - I have a friend who is a Republican California Congressman. We have had many conversations over the last couple of years but I wanted to talk to him after these Cohen hearings. He is in no way, shape or form a Trump fan. He really can't stand him and he talks like that is far more common amongst Republicans than it is not. He is not what I would consider part of any "Establishment elite". He grew up leading worship at his church, he went to a private Christian University and he started his political career as a young Mayor of a small rural California town. He is one of the nicest guys I have ever met and so much of his distaste for Trump has to do with the discourse that exists...and he feels Trump has amplified it to a maximum degree.

Second conversation - Another friend who is an entrepreneur/small business owner. He is far more a libertarian than anything else and wouldn't even call himself a Republican. But he usually votes that way. Like the other, he loathes Donald Trump. His reasons are a little more practical in nature. As a libertarian, he hates the tariffs that Trump has placed on so many goods/companies that he believes has taken away their ability to use free enterprise, etc. He has a laundry list of things that he has disagreed with (and some he has liked).

If you asked both of these two, they would prefer any Republican to Hillary.

But, both of them have talked many times about what they consider "the greater good". My libertarian friend is certainly worried about the freedoms that he believes are being challenged by the left. But he is even more worried about what has become of the political system, balances of power, and more than anything...the wealthy (and very much includes Trump in this) dominating legislature.
My congressman friend is worried about many things as well. Maybe more than anything he believes America works best when the two parties can compromise and meet in the middle. And he believes that even though that was trending in the wrong direction before Trump...that after Trump it has been "obliterated".

Both of these two guys are incredibly intelligent. Both successful. One is from California and the other is from the Midwest.

All of that background to lead to the question I posed to both of them:

Trump has a 90% approval rating amongst Republicans. This is astounding. It is higher than Reagan and both Bush's. 90%. Of course, his approval rating overall for his entire term (on average) is the lowest of any President in decades. But most Republicans love him.
And now I am quoting one of them:
"Not to be trite, but Trump said during his campaign he could shoot someone in Times Square and no one would care {my comment: his actual quote was "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody...and I would not lose any voters"}. We (Republicans) all brushed it off as hyperbole. Just Trump being Trump. But I am watching this Cohen thing, and I am reading blogs and twitter. And I swear, I think he really could. I think Fox News would spin it as an example of Trump standing for the 2nd amendment. Look, Cohen is a dirtbag. Everyone knows that. He's a liar. I know it. You know it. The Republicans know it. And the Democrats know it. But that is really the point isn't it? Trump had a scumbag that everyone hates as his 2nd guy for a decade. Just think about that. All of these guys who have been indicted. They were all Trump's guys. You would have to be a complete moron not to know that most of this is true. But yet, I watch Fox, I read blogs, I follow people on twitter...and everyone just defends the guy. Everyone just says 'Cohen is a liar' and just drops it. Even the Republican members just sat up there and didn't ask one question to find out if any of it was actually true. This is about the President of the United States breaking serious laws. And all I keep reading is that "Hillary did too". I ground my kids for a week when they use that as an excuse. And I seriously...honestly wonder...what would he have to do for Republicans and/or Fox News to not approve? And I genuinely don't know that answer."

And I wonder as well. For a moment...forget what any other politician has done. Just make it about Trump.

What would he have to do for Republicans in large to not approve. His February approval rating is at 43%. Reagan's was at 40% at this same stage.
What would it take for Trump's 90% amongst Republicans to drop?

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, easy answer.

Give us a better option to accomplish our goals and win an election.


That's always the answer. History is full of Presidents and Senators that no one liked, but no one else better ever came up to challenge or run against them effectively.

Trump was in many ways a terrible candidate. His main appeal is he's not a politician, and his brusque style worked for him to make him an outsider during a Populist wave in this country on both sides.

The Democrats then nominated the most died in the wool political machine candidate they could find. One with almost no personal appeal or ability to inspire, and she still almost won.

But also remember you're getting a very biased sample. Sure he's a Republican, but a California Republican is by and large going to be very different than one from the midwest or south. Trust me I do know people who like and support Trump. Now, they ALL wish he'd stop the petty personal attacks, the name calling, etc. Trump thinks that helps him but it doesn't.

But they support the idea of a guy draining that swamp. That's what we want, to cut off a few of the tentacles of the Washington government beast. Trump has in fact done some of that, unlike any other Republican President since Reagan.

he's also not afraid to fight back. The republican base has a large element that is sick of the "play nice" approach of the GOP leadership. We feel the Democrats have been fighting dirty for a long time, and the GOP wont' get down in the mud and fight. Trump will, in a heartbeat. That has appeal to a lot of people, not b/c they like the mud but b/c they feel we've been fighting with one hand tied behind our back.

Think about it. Did Trump start this vicious language? Really? Have you heard the stuff people accuse Republicans of regularly, like the Hollywood elites? Constant comparisons to Hitler and such? Trump just fired back and gave as good as he got, and while he goes over the top with namecalling and such and as President he could do the same with more sophistication, the fact that he will at least fight back has earned him some chips.

FWIW I never liked him as a person. But he's doing just what I hoped he would do. He's filled two SCOTUS positions that Hillary would have chosen, pretty much ending the Great Experiment for the next 20-30 years IMO, and he's filling the rest of the bench with conservatives. He's also helped the economy, and he's going after trade issues.

I'm a Libertarian, but your libertarian friend is wrong. Free trade is great, but Trump is 100% right b/c what we have now is NOT free trade. We may not have many tariffs but China and others DO. Trump isn't ending free trade, he's trying to GET free trade. No economic model dear to Libertarian hearts works when one side has tariffs and mandatory tech transfer and ignores intellectual property rights and the other side just hands it all over without a fight. That's not trade, that's subjugation and tribute.

So Trump is using fire to fight fire, quite literally in economic terms. Lower your tariffs or we'll match them with our own. WOrks for me, and it's the only way we'll get anything like real free markets with China.

[ukpumacat]

Your answer was my answer to them both...

Republicans will not leave Trump until he loses. He has won the election, he fights back and has done some things important to them.

So beyond that, is there anything he could do that would cause people to stop supporting him beyond losing?

Obstruction of Justice?
Lying under oath?
Fraud?
Murder?
Anything?

[ukpumacat]

Btw, just to be clear...this isn't a set up or loaded question. I am genuinely interested if there is something.

[bigsky]

It would take John Effin Kennedy instead of the clowns Democrats have now. I don’t want Trump but I really didn’t want any more of the Obama policies foreign or domestic.

[bigsky]

BTW the primary system will never produce a R or D I will vote for again in my lifetime.

[KSRBEvans]

I'm no longer a Republican but I'm married to one. She would say she was repulsed by Trump but the Democrats ran someone even worse, so she made the least bad choice in 2016.

Now she would say she approves of enough of his actions since becoming President that when forced to make an approve/disapprove choice she'd say she approves, but not strongly because there are some policy decisions she disagrees with and she still detests him as a person.

She's not a single-issue candidate but there's no way she could ever support someone who's pro-choice. So I'd say that would be the quickest way to get her to disapprove of Trump.

[ukpumacat]

She's not a single-issue candidate but there's no way she could ever support someone who's pro-choice. So I'd say that would be the quickest way to get her to disapprove of Trump.

That is a very strong answer. I think you are likely right. Trump used to call himself pro-choice but he has acted as a pro-life President (and I will leave room for him to have changed his mind on the issue but my money would be on him knowing what would get and keep him elected).
If he came out with some legislation that protected a pro-choice movement that would likely hurt his approval rating quite a bit.

Having said that...I still think that answer fits into the "we don't care what he does personally as long as he gets things done we agree with".

And I wonder if there is anything he could do in his personal life (criminal or not) that would affect his approval rating.

I think there is a slew of policy issues that would affect it: guns, taxes, etc.

I tend to think he could pull a Pitino...have an affair and pay for the abortion and people would look the other way as long as he keeps "winning" on policy issues Republicans care about.

Btw, I am not saying this is right or wrong I am just curious.

[KSRBEvans]

That is a very strong answer. I think you are likely right. Trump used to call himself pro-choice but he has acted as a pro-life President (and I will leave room for him to have changed his mind on the issue but my money would be on him knowing what would get and keep him elected).
If he came out with some legislation that protected a pro-choice movement that would likely hurt his approval rating quite a bit.

Having said that...I still think that answer fits into the "we don't care what he does personally as long as he gets things done we agree with".

And I wonder if there is anything he could do in his personal life (criminal or not) that would affect his approval rating.

I think there is a slew of policy issues that would affect it: guns, taxes, etc.

I tend to think he could pull a Pitino...have an affair and pay for the abortion and people would look the other way as long as he keeps "winning" on policy issues Republicans care about.

Btw, I am not saying this is right or wrong I am just curious.

He's pretty close to the bolded part with Stormy Daniels and many of his supporters shrug at that and move on.

[Doc]

Your answer was my answer to them both...

Republicans will not leave Trump until he loses. He has won the election, he fights back and has done some things important to them.

So beyond that, is there anything he could do that would cause people to stop supporting him beyond losing?

Obstruction of Justice?
Lying under oath?
Fraud?
Murder?
Anything?

Obstruction of Justice? If it was actually shown that he did by a neutral authority, yes. And I mean actual, not something like stating his opinion in public that the Mueller's investigation is bias and a witch hunt. That is not obstruction.

Lying under oath? I hold him to the same standard I did Clinton. I never had an issue with Clinton staining up a dress, or playing hide the cigar. I did have an issue when he lied under oath. Again, I'm referring to actual lying, not this BS gotcha crap where the questioners single objective is to trip up the subject, or fine nuances. Of course I'm also not talking about stuff like "it depends on what your definition of "is" is.....

Fraud? What real estate developer (or politician for that matter) isn't guilty of fraud? So nope, fraud by itself isn't going to swade me to drop my support.

Murder? Seriously, or are you just being obtuse

Anything? Lots of things but they would need to be on the same level as what I see from politicians daily.

[Doc]

I'm no longer a Republican but I'm married to one. She would say she was repulsed by Trump but the Democrats ran someone even worse, so she made the least bad choice in 2016.

Now she would say she approves of enough of his actions since becoming President that when forced to make an approve/disapprove choice she'd say she approves, but not strongly because there are some policy decisions she disagrees with and she still detests him as a person.

She's not a single-issue candidate but there's no way she could ever support someone who's pro-choice. So I'd say that would be the quickest way to get her to disapprove of Trump.

Just to clarify....Me and Brian are NOT married...although I am "pro-choice", but also "anti-abortion"

[CitizenBBN]

Just to clarify....Me and Brian are NOT married...although I am "pro-choice", but also "anti-abortion"

You make such a cute couple. You should go for it.

[KSRBEvans]

You make such a cute couple. You should go for it.

Don't think I haven't tried, but Doc has certain standards....

[Doc]

That is a very strong answer. I think you are likely right. Trump used to call himself pro-choice but he has acted as a pro-life President (and I will leave room for him to have changed his mind on the issue but my money would be on him knowing what would get and keep him elected).
If he came out with some legislation that protected a pro-choice movement that would likely hurt his approval rating quite a bit.

I do not believe those two positions are opposite although most do. One can be pro-choice AND pro-life. For me, that is the logical stance. I am opposed to abortion but believe its is an individuals decision based on their beliefs. However there are also limitations. I see ZERO reason for "third term" abortions, short of a doctors decision to save a live, breathing individual.
Having said that...I still think that answer fits into the "we don't care what he does personally as long as he gets things done we agree with".

And I wonder if there is anything he could do in his personal life (criminal or not) that would affect his approval rating.

I think there is a slew of policy issues that would affect it: guns, taxes, etc.

His policies for the most part are mainstream and that is actually what the majority wants. That is why its called mainstream. People are turned of by radical in either direction, be in "the green new deal" or "the religious right extremism". Its why Pat Buchanan was never going to win an election.

I tend to think he could pull a Pitino...have an affair and pay for the abortion and people would look the other way as long as he keeps "winning" on policy issues Republicans care about.

Btw, I am not saying this is right or wrong I am just curious.

Slick Willy made the country immune to personal escapades. I believe most people could care less, or given the option of caring enough to vote against the person they believe is the least worst candidate, they will ignore personal behavior so long as it is legal personal behavior.

.

[Doc]

You make such a cute couple. You should go for it.

[CitizenBBN]

Don't think I haven't tried, but Doc has certain standards....

He does have a thing about looking good in a thong.

[ukpumacat]

He does have a thing about looking good in a thong.

This thread went downhill fast...haha. Would that do it Chuck? Trump in a thong?

[CitizenBBN]

This thread went downhill fast...haha. Would that do it Chuck? Trump in a thong?

Not if it was done tastefully and was meaningful to the story.


Clearly if Trump abandoned core issues that would do it. Privately I dont' know.

IMO it's pretty clear Hillary was all but grossly negligent with US secrets, and I doubt much of her base abandoned her in the election b/c of it. That has far more impact on her possible performance as President than Trump maybe fudging on his taxes or something.

For me it would have to be something that I don't basically consider to be a near given among politicians and the rich, or even common people. An affair? Oh please. Most stats say 60% of men and 40% of women will have an affair. He'd be in the minority if he didn't, and among billionaires I bet it's higher.

Paying someone to shut up about it? Again, please. that's a private transaction, and if the affair was no biggie what's the hush money?

Campaign finance violation? they are commonplace.

Basically if he sold out the country. That would do it. I think Hillary and the Clinton machine has done it as a matter of policy, with their management of the Foundation, the money they raised in Haiti, Uranium One, it's a long list. Trump to date has done nothing even CLOSE to the level of apparent impropriety of the Clintons and their foundation activities.

But money from foreign sources alone isn't enough b/c Obama has had to give money back that bundlers got from illegal sources, as have most campaigns in fact. Depends on whether he was involved in it, etc. The Clintons are an exception b/c they did directly and personally receive money from foreign sources, not just party bundlers out there bringing in money.

But no I'm going to give him or anyone a pretty big pass on their personal lives so long as they aren't corrupt in their business with The People. But use your position for gain at the expense of the job and the nation? yeah, that would do it.

Which is why I know the DOJ is corrupt to the gills. B/c Hillary and her people clearly violated black letter federal law on handling of information and they started handing out immunity before the interviews. They showed their hand and proved we have far bigger things to worry about than the sex lives of our leaders. Gotta pick our battles, and that one just isn't important enough.

[Doc]

Make America Great Again thong? I like it

[dan_bgblue]

BE,

I was not old enough to have been following politics at all, but I would have been subjected to the nightly news as told by Walter, Chet, or David. and I think that the country survived a similar Presidential dalliance around 57 years ago between a woman named Marilyn and a POTUS named John who happened to be a Democrat. There was probably a lot of whispering going on in the church yard on Sundays and in bedrooms all across America, but I do not recall nightly news coverage of the activities nor do I recall headlines on the front page of the CJ on Sunday when I went to the highway to get the Sunday comic strips.

Wonder why news reporting is so much different today.

[bigsky]

I would prefer that the Democrats find a strong centrist candidate that wanted to end the gravy train, cut pork barrel defense spending, fix entitlements, balance the budget, repay the debt...you know, a unicorn. So it’s Trump until the unicorn.

[ukpumacat]

BE,

I was not old enough to have been following politics at all, but I would have been subjected to the nightly news as told by Walter, Chet, or David. and I think that the country survived a similar Presidential dalliance around 57 years ago between a woman named Marilyn and a POTUS named John who happened to be a Democrat. There was probably a lot of whispering going on in the church yard on Sundays and in bedrooms all across America, but I do not recall nightly news coverage of the activities nor do I recall headlines on the front page of the CJ on Sunday when I went to the highway to get the Sunday comic strips.

Wonder why news reporting is so much different today.

Gary Hart was the candidate where this ultimately changed. Before him, personal lives didn't matter as much as policy. There are a lot of skeletons on both sides of the aisle. And plenty of affairs beyond JFK.

And now, in the age of social media, its reached an entirely new level. A pretty awful one, frankly.

[Doc]

Make America Great Again thong? I like it

[badrose]

Ooh, I gotta get one of those!

[KeithKSR]

It isn’t an coincidence that Trump’s change to pro-life came at the same time he became a grandfather. Grandchildren make you think about that stuff more than your own children do, especially with the advancements in medicine that allow one to hear and see the little ones at a younger age than ever.

I pay a lot less attention to what is actually said or done than what is claimed to be said. The left levies claims of racism, yet if you look at Trump’s history and actions that isn’t true. Claims of sexism don’t hold up under scrutiny. Trump was the first to hire a female as construction manager of a NY high rise, etc.

One of the biggest reasons Trump gets a lot of support is he isn’t a politician. Sure, he sometimes steps in it.

I lean libertarian. Tariffs have been threatened as a way to promote free trade. Anyone who thinks we have had fair trade prior to Trump being in office is clueless. The US placing few tariffs on anything and other countries placing huge tariffs on our exports doesn’t amount to free trade. Trade has to work both ways to be equitable.

Cohen wasn’t Trump’s 2nd, or anything close to it.

[Doc]

Personally I appreciate somebody who changes their views. As I grew up I certainly did, and likely will continue to do so. Likewise I can appreciate somebody who can formulate their own opinion which differs from their parties. There are many things I disagree with about the GOP's platform and I have no issue stating so. Its amazing how in Washington EVERY SINGLE democrat votes as a block (sans Mansion). GOP isn't much different although there are more outliers like Rand Paul, McCain (was), Murkowski,

The left claims racism for everything they do not like, to the point it is accepted as such. Now red MAGA hats are racist. Seriously? But "HOPE AND CHANGE" wasn't. Rep Steve King's comments racist but Omar just "she doesn't understand". Increased vetting for people coming from 7 countries that are know to support terrorism is a "Muslim Ban" yet inaccurate. Muslims are free to enter this country and do so daily from a multitude of countries. I offer that I'd love to see some actual proof that Trump is a racist. Not somebody interpreting his words, but something that is actually racist. Supporting a groups right to free speech isn't racist even if the organization is. That how his comments over the VA protest was taken. Here is a list of Trumps "Racist" comments

1) Lebron James..The remarks drew swift criticism and some used the remarks to demonstrate a pattern of Trump picking on people of color. NO, Trump picks on people of ALL color.
2) Maxine Water..He has criticized the California Democrat's intelligence many times, saying she has an "extraordinarily low I.Q." Again, how is that racist? Now if he said she was a black woman thus has a low IQ, that would be both racist and sexist. He didn't. He just stated she has a low IQ. Me, I'd say she is a ######## idiot.
3) Charlottesville...claimed there were "fine people on both sides" of the rally and Trump also said "both sides" were to blame for the violence. Again that is not racist.
4) MS-13 .....used the term "animal" to describe them. Gang members who make it a habit to kill, I got no issue with him using that term. Of course because the majority of MS-13 members are latino, it must be racist
5) NFL players...called the SOB's, not black SOBs, just SOB. Of course some Caucasian players knelt (Adam Gotsis, Travis Kelce and James Cowser) and he was referring to them as well. Now was it hypocritical to comment positively on the Charlottesville while negatively on the NFL players? Sure but that is not racist.
6) The Latino Judge..where he feared a ruling against him based on the judges heritage. Closest thing but that is an expression of BIAS, not racism. Their is a difference. Had he claimed that judge was not qualified because of his heritage, fine. But he didn't.
7) Shithole countries... Ever been to Africa? First they are pretty bad. Second there are white folks there too.
8) Obama and the birther movement....Wow, imagine one party looking to disqualify an elected president. If that is racist, the entire democratic congress is a bunch of racist.
9) The Gold Star parent who was Muslim..."Mr. Khan, who does not know me, viciously attacked me from the stage of the DNC and is now all over T.V. doing the same — Nice!" What exactly is racist here? Oh, the parent was Muslim, something Trump did not mention. Again, Trump attacks anybody. See #1
10) Mexico... "bringing their worst people" to the U.S. who were "bringing drugs, they’re bringing crime, they’re rapists.". Nowhere does he say all Mexicans or Latino's, only that the worse are coming. It why would should have borders and security.

So of this "top 10 racist" comments, not a single one is actually racist.