Emergency Powers on the table a,I’d shutdown talks

[UKHistory]

President in response to a question said he considered instituting emergency powers to use the military to build the wall

Trump said he legally had the authority to do that.

To even discuss invoking emergency powers, this is akin to martial law, over a budget dispute should raise huge concerns from freedom loving Americans

Two days ago Trump retroactively endorsed the Soviet Union’s invasion of Afghanistan citing a Putin talking point but also seemingly looking to radically alter US foreign policy and condemn it.

Trump is a dictator in waiting. It is getting more real by the day.

[DanISSELisdaman]

Someone has to govern. It has become very plain, that the only thing the democrats have on their mind, is getting rid of Trump, even if Americans suffer for it. They act like a bunch of fools, hoping the media will cover that instead of talking about the crimes they've committed and it seems to be working well for them.

[Catonahottinroof]

That cuts both ways. Trump can’t hold a government shutdown for months or years as he has stated and govern effectively. He’s stated that is what may happen. It’s a fight he will lose, so why pick it now? Especially with tax refund season right around the corner.

Someone has to govern. It has become very plain, that the only thing the democrats have on their mind, is getting rid of Trump, even if Americans suffer for it. They act like a bunch of fools, hoping the media will cover that instead of talking about the crimes they've committed and it seems to be working well for them.

[kingcat]

How much rope does his base give him?

It's quite likely the question next becomes, do they support him or the the United States of America? His plan to push the boundaries of blatant lies, deception, and breaks with long standing precedent and national precepts; all to achieve a desired outcome, has enabled him to basically become their supreme leader.
A majority of his supporters now refuse to question anything he does that does not fit the "they all do it" defense.

Inadvertently placing him above all this country stands for. We are getting so close to the appropriate time for patriots and the enemies of this democracy to clearly pick a side. Now, they did not push it to this point, he has.

Sadly, the ultimate result remains in question. One which bodes ominously for this nation.

Not a question of which direction we should move as a democratic government, but if we are a democracy or not.

[Doc]

Did the left get this upset when Obama ran an end around Congress with DOCA? I don't recall........

This is called a "negotiation tactic". Same thing he has done multiple times. No different than when he said military options were not off the table when dealing with Russia or N. Korea. Of course the left is going to get their panties all wadded up and suggest "martial law". Really? Were you screaming that when the Democrats were doing the same type of things?

[CitizenBBN]

No one is placing him above America, any more than people who supported Obama were placing him above America, despite conservative claims to the contrary.

People supported Obama's socialist policies b/c they think that's what is best for America. They're wrong, but accusing them of being anti-American gets us nowhere, and is inaccurate. Likewise it's not true that people are following some "cult of Trump" rather than worry about America. They think what Trump is doing is what is best, just like liberals.

As long as we keep turning the other side into some evil, we're going to get nowhere. Might as well start ramping up the wartime propaganda films and cartoons.

I think leftism is wrong, as it fundamentally undermines the reason's the nation was founed, which was the preservation of individual liberty. You simply cannot have leftism and liberty, and I choose the latter.

But I don't think people who are leftists THINK they are undermining America. They think they are helping America, and they simply don't value liberty as much as I think they should, but they aren't putting something else above America, they think they are helping make America better.

So let's stop thinking anyone who doesn't see things the way we see them is somehow intentionally undermining America. Thinking they are wrong or naive is OK, but that's about the limit IMO.

[CitizenBBN]

Did the left get this upset when Obama rand an end around Congress withn DOCA? I don't recall........

Oh no. When Obama threatened to ignore Congress and just wield vast, unconstitutional Executive powers that was OK and didn't undermine the Constitution at all.

You guys call me when we really do something that, in a proper American historical context, is REALLY a threat. You know, like rounding up US citizens against their will without the commission of any crime b/c of their ethnicity and putting them in camps as potential threats (Japanese internment), or when we suspend things like habeus corpus and start locking up elected officials (Civil War).

And FWIW I've never really thought border security was anything other than a military matter. posse comitatus specifically deals with enforcing US laws within the US. Stopping people from illegally coming across the border is not a domestic question, but is a defense of our border against the aggressions of other nations and the aggressions of people from other nations.

I've never understood why it's viewed as a domestic legal issue, even if someone gets across the border into the US. If the Russians or Chinese sent 100s of boats to our shores and they unloaded tens of thousands of people, even unarmed, who fled into our nation and armed themselves and started wreaking havoc, is that a domestic legal issue?

So, just like people losing their minds over everything else Trump says, let's see what happens. or let's just assume the end of the nation is nigh and go loot a Walmart I guess.

[UKHistory]

Presidential overreach is a danger regardless of who the president.

Obama pushes the envelope with executive orders.

Congress should work to serve as a check to presidential overreach. Not obstruct. Challenge and look to compromise finding a middle ground.

I go by what Trump says. His own words and his own tweets. Trumps support of Russia at the expense of NATO always has concerned me. My fears seeing him and Putin side by side re-enforces my view.

For a president to say he is willing to shutdown the Federal government for years is a dereliction of duty. It is true of Congress as well.

If Obama was as dangerous as Trump, he sounded far less crazy.

[UKHistory]

Did the left get this upset when Obama ran an end around Congress with DOCA? I don't recall........

This is called a "negotiation tactic". Same thing he has done multiple times. No different than when he said military options were not off the table when dealing with Russia or N. Korea. Of course the left is going to get their panties all wadded up and suggest "martial law". Really? Were you screaming that when the Democrats were doing the same type of things?

Any type of presidential overreach or any type of effort to deny civil liberties, I will oppose. No president has behaved as such a goose stepping bully like Trump. All want power, he just show such a lack of understanding or good sense, I speak up.

Trumps actions and his pushing governmental norms is a threat to our democracy.

[Doc]

Any type of presidential overreach or any type of effort to deny civil liberties, I will oppose. No president has behaved as such a goose stepping bully like Trump. All want power, he just show such a lack of understanding or good sense, I speak up.

Trumps actions and his pushing governmental norms is a threat to our democracy.

I've not seen any goose stepping or bully. As for Russia, I only heard one President say that he would have "more flexibilty" after the election when dealing with Russia, and that wasn't Trump. I also don't recall Trump ever setting a line then when it was overstepped by Russia, there was ZERO consequence. Of course Trump was not the forceful one that scolded Putin with the classic "cut it out" sanction. The concept that Trump is Putin lacky is ridiculous based on ACTIONS.

[UKHistory]

Former Secretary Mattis disagrees regarding Trump bein Putin’s lackey.

Trumps comments endorsing not only the Putin version of why the CCCP invaded Afghanistan but the invasion itself is equally telling.

[Catonahottinroof]

I think the Russia/Afghanistan comparisons by the left are balderdash. Afghanistan borders Russia and Afghanistan had a military treaty with Russia. When they requested, Russia fulfilled the requests. No different than the crap that NATO involves itself in that we end up funding and having the largest hands in completing.
How would we respond to Russian Military being within stones throws of our own border now? The Cuban Missle crisis was a preview. We are in Kosovo, South Korea, Japan and Afghanistan....all within stones throws of the Russian borders.....and they’re the bad guys in this scenario?
Forgive my rant, but a look at the true landscape is necessary before any comparison could ever be made.....
As for keeping the government (25% of it or so) closed, the threat of it being closed months, years is a negotiating tactic, a straw man argument one at the very best. Trump loses on that one every time... at some point the closure affects the average Joe who actually requires that portion of the closed government and he erodes the base that he does have.
He can play hard ball on any bill congress sends him. Sign, no sign. That’s his biggest hammer and then he better work that Art of Deal stuff to get done what he needs done.

[UKHistory]

If you or your family’s livelihood was being used as a negotiating you would sing a slightly different tune b

[UKHistory]

I think the Russia/Afghanistan comparisons by the left are balderdash. Afghanistan borders Russia and Afghanistan had a military treaty with Russia. When they requested, Russia fulfilled the requests. No different than the crap that NATO involves itself in that we end up funding and having the largest hands in completing.
How would we respond to Russian Military being within stones throws of our own border now? The Cuban Missle crisis was a preview. We are in Kosovo, South Korea, Japan and Afghanistan....all within stones throws of the Russian borders.....and they’re the bad guys in this scenario?
Forgive my rant, but a look at the true landscape is necessary before any comparison could ever be made.....
As for keeping the government (25% of it or so) closed, the threat of it being closed months, years is a negotiating tactic, a straw man argument one at the very best. Trump loses on that one every time... at some point the closure affects the average Joe who actually requires that portion of the closed government and he erodes the base that he does have.
He can play hard ball on any bill congress sends him. Sign, no sign. That’s his biggest hammer and then he better work that Art of Deal stuff to get done what he needs done.

That is so revisionist history. Both Carter and Reagan condemned the Soviet invasion. To stand with Trump on this issue is to turn your back on The US containment policy of the Russians since 1946.

The policy might have been wron. It wasn’t perfect. But that jackass of a commander in Chief we have can’t articulate his position well and he sure doesn’t know the history well enough based on his huge word choice.

[Catonahottinroof]

Revisionist? In what way? That war would have never occurred if the CIA hadn’t funneled arms and funds to the mujahadeen....we were taking two sides, one publicly in condemning, the other secretly in arming it. You can’t have that both ways.

[UKHistory]

The war started because the Russians invaded. Our intervention turned the tide. There was a war already

A brutal war that saw Russians put bombs in children toys.

[Catonahottinroof]

The war started because we funded a bunch of cave dwellers with weapons and funding. Not to mention it was on the Soviet’s border.
The end game was to crash the Soviet Union...mission accomplished, but to act as if that war’s beginnings was all Soviet doing is revisionist history on your part.
Pakistan’s PM Bhutto told Bush 1 you’ve created a “Frankenstein” with funding the Islamic fighters in Afghanistan. He was correct. We’re dealing with a much more pervasive problem these days due to what we initiated back then.
It could have been payback for the Cuban Missile Crisis, I don’t know if that was the reason or not. However, Reagan’s drive was to beat the Soviets into submission. He succeeded past his own presidency to Soviet demise.
Now we deal with an “imagined” Russian thread....all for political purposes.
IMO we will get hit with a real Russian threat when we aren’t looking or are numb to it because of all this BS currently.

This thread sure has went off the rails from the original post....and I apologize for that...

[UKHistory]

The Russians. Invaded. The war was going on and then we armed them working with Pakistan and Saudia Arabia

Perfectly legitimate to disagree with US involvement and certainly the escalation

Bhutto was more than happy to work with us and build the jihadists.

My point is that Trump endorsed the Soviet invasion. He constantly praises and supports totalitarian regimes quite openly. Specially Russia. He has never praised or come close to personally, publicly our allies.

The man is a threat to our democracy. He yearns to rule the country like a dictator and before too long may just be able to do that.

[CitizenBBN]

That is so revisionist history. Both Carter and Reagan condemned the Soviet invasion. To stand with Trump on this issue is to turn your back on The US containment policy of the Russians since 1946.

The policy might have been wron. It wasn’t perfect. But that jackass of a commander in Chief we have can’t articulate his position well and he sure doesn’t know the history well enough based on his huge word choice.

Of course we're going to condemn the invasion. We're a rival power. They condemn all of our invasions, and we have way more than they do.

But realistically the Russians (then Soviets) invaded b/c it was in their strategic interests to do so, the same as why we plant Marines everywhere.

I think it's dangerous and foolish for Trump to say it openly, but the truth is all powerful nations do these things, and while Trump is rarely strategic in his silence there is something to be said for a guy who just says what he thinks. We keep saying we want that kind of honesty in our politicians, right up until one of them actually does it and then (on either side) we run away from them b/c what they said wasn't within the nice, tight bounds of political speech.

[CitizenBBN]

The war started because the Russians invaded. Our intervention turned the tide. There was a war already

A brutal war that saw Russians put bombs in children toys.

No, not really accurate.

In the mid 1970s the Shah of Afghanistan was overthrown, and replaced for some years with a relatively more stable but Communist government. That government fell into disarray and there was a coup in 1978. The new regime instituted draconian repressions and "reforms" that were very disliked by the rural Mulsim population.

The US started arming those groups, the mujahadeen, and the Soviet invasion was a response to the fact that the Afghan Communist goverment was going to fall without their help.

We began meeting with rebels and supporting them early in 1979, and the Soviets didn't invade to quell the unrest until the end of 1979.

The mess started b/c the Communist regime in Kabul was deeply repressive and trying to break the tribal system. They ended up with a rebellion on their hands, one which the US did not cause but did aid and strengthen, and the Soviets responded by direct military action.

Now, given our invasion of almost every nation in Central America when we thought their destabilized regimes were a threat to us, are we really being honest when we say the Russians did something we've never done?

Like I said, it's foolish of Trump to say anything positive or even neutral about Russia right now, but he's also not wrong in that the Russians didn't do anything we wouldn't have done if the Soviets were arming rebels in Mexico and destabilizing the pro-US government. We'd lose our minds over it.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW, that aid began at the behest of PResident Zia of Pakistan, and was an attempt in part to heal relations with that country. Their nuclear program, Zia's human rights issues, and the execution of Prime Minister Bhutto (the first one) after the coup which brought Zia to power had deeply strained relations.

We also armed the Pakistani military heavily during this period to try to maintain good relations, and that urgency was in response to having lost IRan with the fall of the Shah and the need for more friends in the region.

I believe in US exceptionalism, but I'm not naive about what policies the US has had to implement to get it. We've been not quite as ruthless as perhaps the Communist Chinese or Soviets, but we've supported and armed regimes who have been that evil.

[Doc]

I'm a big fan of the left labelling Trump a dictator in waiting while they vow to impeach him, the president who was elected by a legal, valid election by the people, without any evidence of anything that warrants impeachment, all because they don't like him. He is the autocrat? Seems more like the left are the ones who feel their power is absolute and the voters be damned.

[Doc]

I think the Russia/Afghanistan comparisons by the left are balderdash. Afghanistan borders Russia and Afghanistan had a military treaty with Russia. When they requested, Russia fulfilled the requests. No different than the crap that NATO involves itself in that we end up funding and having the largest hands in completing.
How would we respond to Russian Military being within stones throws of our own border now? The Cuban Missle crisis was a preview. We are in Kosovo, South Korea, Japan and Afghanistan....all within stones throws of the Russian borders.....and they’re the bad guys in this scenario?
Forgive my rant, but a look at the true landscape is necessary before any comparison could ever be made.....
As for keeping the government (25% of it or so) closed, the threat of it being closed months, years is a negotiating tactic, a straw man argument one at the very best. Trump loses on that one every time... at some point the closure affects the average Joe who actually requires that portion of the closed government and he erodes the base that he does have.
He can play hard ball on any bill congress sends him. Sign, no sign. That’s his biggest hammer and then he better work that Art of Deal stuff to get done what he needs done.

Agree with the top but not the bottom. I always found it interesting the US policy advocates placing missles on Russia doorstep without them having any response yet when they fortified Cuba, it was a crisis of epic proportion, such that we blockaded the island.

As for the shutdown, its something that affects me now. Wife is a federal employee who won't be getting a check this week. So you can say while it affects the average Joe eventually, its affecting me now. Still, I see Trump as being ready to negotiate. He has altered what he wants. Its the left that has dug in their heels simply for the optics of not allowing Trump to fulfill one of his promises. It is clear that is what is being done. Multiple democrats have advocated a wall or barrier in the past but now suddenly are 100% against it. Did something change about how folks cross the border? Or did something change as far as who is asking for it. People know that congress really does not care about the cost. They spent 2.1 BILLION on a failed Obamacare website...not Obamacare but on the WEBSITE. They also spent 3 BILLION to buy cars and junk then, aka cash for clunkers. Those two failed projects that equates to what Trump is asking for to build a wall. I didn't see democrats (or republicans) bitching about those cost. Normal people see its not the $$$, its politics that is why this shutdown is happening. In the past, the republicans have always caved. Kudo's to Trump for not caving. He takes the blame for the shutdown because that is what leaders do, unlike past ones who simply blame others or their predecessors. But the bottom line is the left is fooling nobody. They are the one holding the country hostage. It has been their tactic from the day Trump was elected. That is their strategy. They think it is a good one. I don't. We will see.

[Doc]

That is so revisionist history. Both Carter and Reagan condemned the Soviet invasion. To stand with Trump on this issue is to turn your back on The US containment policy of the Russians since 1946.

The policy might have been wron. It wasn’t perfect. But that jackass of a commander in Chief we have can’t articulate his position well and he sure doesn’t know the history well enough based on his huge word choice.

at least he isn't working in cahoots with Russia

[Catonahottinroof]

What I find fascinating about this whole thing is the left cannot get past the politics of hating Trump to acknowledge this was actually occurring with Obama and the cash for Uranium stock that occurred with HRC....and Trump is the danger to democracy...smh
I’m not a fan of Trump. He can’t filter his mouth (or tweets). He’s stupid about a lot of matters, but he’s not about letting the nation fail for his personal gain. Not yet anyway. I can’t make that same judgment about Obama and HRC given what was said and transpired between them and Russian diplomats/businesses.

at least he isn't working in cahoots with Russia

[Doc]

What I find fascinating about this whole thing is the left cannot get past the politics of hating Trump to acknowledge this was actually occurring with Obama and the cash for Uranium stock that occurred with HRC....and Trump is the danger to democracy...smh
I’m not a fan of Trump. He can’t filter his mouth (or tweets). He’s stupid about a lot of matters, but he’s not about letting the nation fail for his personal gain. Not yet anyway. I can’t make that same judgment about Obama and HRC given what was said and transpired between them and Russian diplomats/businesses.

I agree except for Obama. I don't think he was in it for personal gain or power, etc. IMO he genuinely believed what he was doing was right. I vehemently disagreed with his policies and how many were enacted but never ever felt undermining him or disrespecting the office was a good thing. I saw it sad that he and primarily the dems took the ends justify the means approach, and don't hide the glee in seeing it bite them in the ass concerning the SCOTUS nomination. Thanks Harry Reid! But I believe trying to undermine him was wrong. The GOP should stand by their principle, just like the democrats, but to obstruct simply to obstruct is stupid and goes against job they were hired to do.

But HRC is crooked, every bit and moreso than Trump IMO. I wouldn't put either in charge of watching my dog, that is how little I trust either, but at least Trump has results. All HRC has is bitterness

[Catonahottinroof]

You give Obama a pass on Uranium One. I can’t do that. He was in a position to be informed about it and I can’t see how he wasn’t. If he turned a blind eye...well that would be the least of the problems this created. If he knew and allowed it then it’s doubly worse.

I agree except for Obama. I don't think he was in it for personal gain or power, etc. IMO he genuinely believed what he was doing was right. I vehemently disagreed with his policies and how many were enacted but never ever felt undermining him or disrespecting the office was a good thing. I saw it sad that he and primarily the dems took the ends justify the means approach, and don't hide the glee in seeing it bite them in the ass concerning the SCOTUS nomination. Thanks Harry Reid! But I believe trying to undermine him was wrong. The GOP should stand by their principle, just like the democrats, but to obstruct simply to obstruct is stupid and goes against job they were hired to do.

But HRC is crooked, every bit and moreso than Trump IMO. I wouldn't put either in charge of watching my dog, that is how little I trust either, but at least Trump has results. All HRC has is bitterness

[Doc]

You give Obama a pass on Uranium One. I can’t do that. He was in a position to be informed about it and I can’t see how he wasn’t. If he turned a blind eye...well that would be the least of the problems this created. If he knew and allowed it then it’s doubly worse.

I hold him to the same standard as I do other Presidents. There is a good chance he was unaware, left that responsibility to somebody else...whoever SHE was. Granted, he bears some responsibility but I put that fisaco on the one who benefited financially

[Catonahottinroof]

He equally could be aware. Our intelligence is very good. Electronically they would have foot prints for this likely or taped conversations if no phone or email wasn’t involved...likely. That’s why I can’t accept him not knowing. If intelligence has record of this and didn’t inform Obama, the problem is far bigger than imagined.

I hold him to the same standard as I do other Presidents. There is a good chance he was unaware, left that responsibility to somebody else...whoever SHE was. Granted, he bears some responsibility but I put that fisaco on the one who benefited financially

[CitizenBBN]

We know Obama was aware Hillary was operating with non-government email. There's zero chance he was unaware that the Clintons are dirty as hell politicians who were taking in tens of millions from foreign governments and groups.

I imagine Obama's people were well aware of Clinton's behavior at least in general terms, and we know he emailed with her to her non-government email. Did he know it was a home brew server? Maybe, maybe not, but we know he lied outright about not knowing she had a non-approved email for government work.

His people surely kept an eye on Hillary. It was a marriage of politics, but Obama's loyalists I'm sure were wary of Clinton and vise versa. Obama may not have known the details, but he would have known she was dirty. To the extent he didn't know about Uranium One it's b/c he likely didn't want to know.

I don't think Obama is dirty. I think he's a very misguided ideologue, but not dirty. Hillary and Bill are in this for their own gain, period.

so I imagine he knew he didn't want to know, and let his people come to him only if it was serious enough.