Ammo sales.

[BigBlue92]

CBBN, I PM'd you yesterday but since u have not seen it I will repeat it here:

I did not realize you are a CCDW instructor. I have been looking. How do I find the dates for your class, how many to fill a class of my own, and/or do you offer a private class?

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[CitizenBBN]

Hey, sorry just saw it and responded with all the details. I have GOT to change my layout to highlight them. On Forum Runner they show so well and I forget it when I'm on the computer. not good since I get them for site stuff as well.

It's rambly though, fair warning. We'll get something figured out.

[KeithKSR]

Well, I do believe that the .223/5.56mm round is more than adequate to kill a man. Lots of our enemies have been killed with this round.
Your other point goes to military doctrine, in which many militaries could care less about their troops. Their troops get wounded, they get walked over/run over, walked away from. The Chinese do this, so do the Russians. Their doctrine does not value their troops.
American military doctrine calls for our wounded to be evacuated ASAP. As little waiting as possible, as much battlefield care as possible until EVAC., even to the point of taking troops away from the fighting to care for our wounded. We also have, without a doubt, the best trained battlefield medics anywhere. ANYWHERE.
And as far as how many rounds it takes.......... if it takes one, good......if it takes three, good........if it takes more, that's good too. As long as the bad guy gets dead, whatever it takes is good. But American doctrine calls for three rounds to get it done, according to the battlefield studies/simulations done to see what is the most efficient/cost effective way to kill our enemies.

It's been a while since I have read about the 5.56, but I recall that another issue that impacted the 5.56 round being adopted were Geneva convention issues dealing with bullet fragmentation. The old .308 and .30-06 rounds fragmented a lot on impact, causing some nasty and lethal wounds. With the battlefield rounds needing to be designed with full metal jackets to prevent fragmenting the more powerful .308 and .30-06 rounds had the ability to pass through combatants and wounds that formerly took down the enemy then let them remain in the battle with their wounds. The 5.56 round hitting the same enemy in the same spot would tend to tumble more upon impact and do more damage as a result. This action of the lighter round resulted in taking an enemy down.

[BigBlue92]

The 7.62mm is the same size as the .308, and it is even more widely used that the 5.56. Of course in the AK weapons of the Soviet bloc, but NATO uses it too. I know we use it extensively in our sniper and marksman weapons (up to the 50 cal). Doesn't mean there isn't something to that, but it isn't the size alone.

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[Jeeepcat]

Somewhat OT, I enjoy this app:

http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/

[Jeeepcat]

I order ammo from Sportsmansguide.com I almost always have something on back order LOL

I really like the Wolf 7.62 - so I should order from Chuck in the future

[KeithKSR]

The 7.62mm is the same size as the .308, and it is even more widely used that the 5.56. Of course in the AK weapons of the Soviet bloc, but NATO uses it too. I know we use it extensively in our sniper and marksman weapons (up to the 50 cal). Doesn't mean there isn't something to that, but it isn't the size alone.

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The 7.62 NATO is a lot different than the 7.62 x 39 Russian round. The NATO round, a .308 Win round, packs a lot more punch than the 7.62 x39. For military use the rounds use a FMJ, I've got an SKS that uses the Russian round, not much power behind that round, but it will take a whitetail using a hollow point round.

[CitizenBBN]

I order ammo from Sportsmansguide.com I almost always have something on back order LOL

I really like the Wolf 7.62 - so I should order from Chuck in the future

How many rounds ya want?


The 308 Winchester (7.62x51mm NATO) was actually developed by the US Army at Springfield Armory and work was begun before WWII even ended.

It was driven by the creation of the M1 Carbine firing the .30 Carbine. They wanted a round smaller than the 30-06 but bigger and with more punch than the .30 and with as much of the power of the 30-06 as possible for the smaller size.

That round was approved and then permission was given to Winchester to market it as the 308 Winchester, and the M-14 was developed some years later to use the round. Interestingly Winchester was obviously working on a commercial version of the 308 casing before Ordnance was done with the approval process.

Anyway, the goal was to have a round suitable for the next generation of rifles that would be selective fire and be able to carry as much ammo as possible within the ballistic goals, i.e. have as small a round as possible. The 308 was born of a compromise between the .30 Carbine (small but not much punch) and the 30-06 (workhorse round of the army for decades).

The 5.56 NATO/223 was born of the same basic goals as the 308 is pretty heavy for selective fire shooting. Lots more recoil and again considered maybe a heavier round than necessary. More round than necessary means more weight, more recoil, more wear on the rifle and more weight in the rifle.

Personally I see some European influence in the 223 in that European nations are always picking a caliber smaller than what is seen as "enough" in the US market. No one here shoots 32 ACP unless b/c it's in a super small conceal gun. In Europe they still issue it to police.

There's no doubt the power/punch has dropped significantly from the 30-06, but battles at the time were not the long distance fights of older wars. 30-06 in the jungle is a lot. Of course in Afghanistan it's not.

[CitizenBBN]

FWIW the trend has continued in the Soviet gun scheme as well. They've moved from the 7.62x39mm to the 5.45x39mm and the AK-47 became the AK-74. Another move to smaller rounds. They make up for the smaller round with higher velocities in order to carry more ammo, have less recoil and thus lighter weapons as well.

The Ak-47 and the 7.62x39mm is the most ubiquitous development in weaponry history, but the Soviets moved from it in the 70s to the smaller round and lighter AK-74. Even most "gun people" don't seem to know that b/c the AK-47 is so well known and used by non Soviet armies the world over. The 5.45x39mm is hardly used in the US, and the 7.62 is IMO the most common caliber at least in the South and midwest. As many ARs as are out there there are a ton of SKSs and AKs, and the SKSs have been extremely popular in the South. Rugged, simple, reliable, cheap. The Southern tradition of using what works whether it's pretty or not. And the SKS and AK chew cheaper steel case ammo like candy.

[Jeeepcat]

I love my Saiga in all of its stamped metal glory lol
Just want a shotgun to go with it

[Jeeepcat]

Chuck you getting any 9mm wolf in?
Let me know about ccdw too for me and wife

[CitizenBBN]

Chuck you getting any 9mm wolf in?
Let me know about ccdw too for me and wife

Around 20,000-30,000 rounds of it. More if I can rob some people and get the cash.

I'll PM you (have a couple others on here as well interested), we're getting ready to expand where we have the classes. Trying to work out the details.

[suncat05]

There is nothing wrong with the 5.56 mm/.223 caliber round. Now, it may not be as effective at distances over 300 meters/yards that everyone would like, but at that range and inside of that range it is more than adequate at incapacitating an enemy.
No round is perfect, no matter the caliber. Work with what you have, deal with it within its limitations. Shot placement is more important than caliber.
1)Proper grip, 2)proper stance(or position, as the case may be!), 3)sight alignment, 4)proper breathing, 5)proper trigger squeeze(or pull, or whatever you like to call it!).
You do those five steps correctly and caliber doesn't matter all that much. Yeah, the bigger the better........ sure. A bigger ball bat works in baseball, a bigger football player makes a bigger hit on defense, a bigger basketball player makes a better player most of the time, but..........use what you have efficiently, make it as reliable as possible, and the caliber doesn't matter all that much at that point.
At least to my way of thinking. Focus on the basics, not the caliber. But that's just me.

[CitizenBBN]

There is nothing wrong with the 5.56 mm/.223 caliber round. Now, it may not be as effective at distances over 300 meters/yards that everyone would like, but at that range and inside of that range it is more than adequate at incapacitating an enemy.
No round is perfect, no matter the caliber. Work with what you have, deal with it within its limitations. Shot placement is more important than caliber.
1)Proper grip, 2)proper stance(or position, as the case may be!), 3)sight alignment, 4)proper breathing, 5)proper trigger squeeze(or pull, or whatever you like to call it!).
You do those five steps correctly and caliber doesn't matter all that much. Yeah, the bigger the better........ sure. A bigger ball bat works in baseball, a bigger football player makes a bigger hit on defense, a bigger basketball player makes a better player most of the time, but..........use what you have efficiently, make it as reliable as possible, and the caliber doesn't matter all that much at that point.
At least to my way of thinking. Focus on the basics, not the caliber. But that's just me.

I should clarify b/c I looked at my post and esp. the Euro comment made me think it came off as me criticizing the round.

I'm really not. Just b/c an Automag in 50AE has more punch than a 9mm doesn't mean everyone should carry them. I often laugh when I see people posting about a 22 or 25 not doing anything to someone. As you said, yeah in the pinky finger they don't stop you, but neither does a 45. Put it in the right place and it's all over.

The Soviets went the same way for the same reasons. The guns have less recoil which means more accurate shooting whether a follow up shot or select fire.

The only criticism I have of the smaller rounds, and this is true off them all in rifle/pistol and not just the 223, is they all give up on penetration/knock down power more than bigger rounds. Like I said it's a tradeoff. Everyone thinks the 45 ACP is the big daddy of pistols, but it was a step down from the 45 Colt issued in guns like the M1909. No doubt people were lamenting the "weak" 45 ACP. (I will say the 38 was the standard caliber prior to the 45 so most troops saw a bigger round, but the M1909 was 45 Colt so they stepped down from their biggest pistol caliber)

I pretty strongly think we need to carry 45 for sidearms b/c if you go to your sidearm you need to stop people NOW b/c they're 10 feet from you and closing. That's a function of the role of the sidearm, the fact they don't have to conceal carry it, and they will carry very limited ammo for a sidearm so the weight difference is pretty small.

The thing about the Euro comment is Americans at just about every level choose a bigger, heavier round than the Europeans. Same with our cars. They have high rev little sports car engins, we make bigger engines with more horses. Where they use a 32 we use a 38 and now a 9mm. Where they may use a 308 we use a 30/06. Size over speed.

I don't pretend to have combat experience so I won't even take the first step down the road of which round is superior between something like the .223 and the Grendel. I can look at the numbers and I have beliefs about the basic physics that a 30/06 is obviously more stopping power than a 223 b/c I can see that with deer hunting, but once you get past the big picture to the subtleties I won't claim any expertise. I can tell you a 9mm or 45 will be more effective in stopping someone in their tracks ON AVERAGE than a 25 ACP, but like you said if you hit them in the pinky versus the face make even more difference.

You've shot the AR/223 platform way more than me, and your life depends on it. I'd be Obama-esque to tell you which round works better in a given situation and honestly I think even for a given situation it's a very personal choice.

I tell people that all the time with pistol calibers. "What's the best caliber to carry?" or "whats the best carry gun?" are questions with no answers b/c it depends on the person. Does no good to have a great "stopping power" round from a rock solid reliable gun if you can't hit a barn with it. Does no good to have a gun you love but leave in the safe b/c it's hard to carry.

Shoot what you can shoot well and what works in the situation you're in, leave the math in the classroom. So we're 100% in agreement.

[BigBlue92]

Chuck you getting any 9mm wolf in?
Let me know about ccdw too for me and wife

Jeep, my wife and I are also interested and I PM´d Chuck. It would be awesome if we did a KSR ccdw class. Or just a blowing-stuff-up excursion.

Excellent thread, guys.

[Jeeepcat]

Jeep, my wife and I are also interested and I PM´d Chuck. It would be awesome if we did a KSR ccdw class. Or just a blowing-stuff-up excursion.

Excellent thread, guys.

Sounds like a plan!

[KeithKSR]

There is nothing wrong with the 5.56 mm/.223 caliber round. Now, it may not be as effective at distances over 300 meters/yards that everyone would like, but at that range and inside of that range it is more than adequate at incapacitating.

.223 is a very good round for the role it was designed to fill. You can carry a lot of rounds without the bulk of larger cartridges, relatively light recoil, decent range with a flatter trajectory. Hard to beat for urban warfare, jungle warfare, and terrain that forces most rifle fire to shorter distances.

[suncat05]

My basic load that I keep in my patrol car for emergencies is well over 400 rounds of 5.56mm. Plus another 60 rounds of .40 S&W caliber. Plus 18 rounds of 12 Gauge "00" buck. Plus several knives, assorted nylon multi-purpose straps, an NBC mask & suit, and other stuff that I can't tell you about.
I just wish I could carry more rounds........you can never, ever have enough bullets! My wife looked at me like I was crazy the first time I told her that.........

[Darrell KSR]

Jeep, my wife and I are also interested and I PM´d Chuck. It would be awesome if we did a KSR ccdw class. Or just a blowing-stuff-up excursion.

Excellent thread, guys.

Do it around a ballgame. Maybe I can make it, too. Would be fun.

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[Darrell KSR]

an NBC mask & suit, and other stuff that I can't tell you about.

So you're the one responsible for the crappy network programming .

Seriously, the part that is cool is the "other stuff I can't tell you about." That's like Sheldon, but a different spin on "the big bang" theory. (If you don't watch, I wasted some finger swyping there.)

Sent using Forum Runner. All typos excused.

[suncat05]

CBBN-no offense taken, I knew we were both on the same channel, I think we were just taking different routes to the same objective. It's all good, my friend.

This goes back to another thread on another site()where we were discussing how if the gun doesn't fit in your hand, then it's not going to be effective for you to have to use under a stressful situation. The caliber doesn't really matter all that much, what's important is whether the gun fits comfortably in your hand. If it fits your hand correctly, then you're most likely going to fare much better with it should you need to use it in defense of yourself, family, property, etc.
In the same vein, not everyone does well shooting a rifle or a shotgun(I know LOTS of cops that absolutely dread shooting a shotgun.........and no, I am NOT one of them!). Any range time is good training time, and that is the key for proper weapons handling.
We're on the same page, and we both see that there are different ways to get there. Now THAT is what I call diversity!

[CitizenBBN]

assorted nylon multi-purpose straps, an NBC mask & suit, and other stuff that I can't tell you about.

Are we still talking about your cruiser or have we moved on to your rec room?

[CitizenBBN]

CBBN-no offense taken, I knew we were both on the same channel, I think we were just taking different routes to the same objective. It's all good, my friend.

This goes back to another thread on another site()where we were discussing how if the gun doesn't fit in your hand, then it's not going to be effective for you to have to use under a stressful situation. The caliber doesn't really matter all that much, what's important is whether the gun fits comfortably in your hand. If it fits your hand correctly, then you're most likely going to fare much better with it should you need to use it in defense of yourself, family, property, etc.
In the same vein, not everyone does well shooting a rifle or a shotgun(I know LOTS of cops that absolutely dread shooting a shotgun.........and no, I am NOT one of them!). Any range time is good training time, and that is the key for proper weapons handling.
We're on the same page, and we both see that there are different ways to get there. Now THAT is what I call diversity!

Going to your comment about shooting what fits, got to shoot an Uzi last week at the range, semiauto version. Oh my, I have GOT to get me one of those. Never shot a gun so fluidly just picking it up.

I don't get to the range nearly enough. I find it very good mentally b/c you just take a complete break from work. You have to focus on what you're doing and follow safety procedures and concentrate on your shooting. It just takes me right out of all the other stuff running through my mind for that 30-60 minutes.

Almost everyone I know who goes to the range the first time enjoys it. I need to go more, or build a range. lol.

[dan_bgblue]

Lot of dissing going on about the 30-30. I take exception to that, so does my Marlin. You do not want to watch a round coming at you from less than 120 yards.

[bigsky]

I am okay with a .223 rifle barreled for proper varmint hunting, but they're all jury rigged to shoot the military ammo instead of some sweet reload. That's why I would buy a .22-250 or swift or even a .222 first, and have. The case itself is a good one, fitting in, powder capacity wise, between those alternatives.

I know everyone is out there buying up the AR clones, but a semi auto BAR in thirty caliber would be a good alternative, and if you could see them against the snow, you could stop them. Wolverines!

[CitizenBBN]

Truthfully Sky I'm not a big AR guy. Nothing wrong with them. I prefer the Soviet designs in general, and the BAR is absolutely the sweetest thing going. I just sold a first year Belgian production BAR at a sale. Thank goodness a couple of guys there knew just how special a gun we were selling.

[bigsky]

That was an amazing find for you and then the buyer.

[suncat05]

Lot of dissing going on about the 30-30. I take exception to that, so does my Marlin. You do not want to watch a round coming at you from less than 120 yards.

Nothing wrong with a .30-.30. Fine caliber, and a very good alternative to some of what we've been talking about here. Accurate out to a certain range, plenty of knockdown, very good for hunting something fairly big that can feed the family for a few days. Magazine capacity is good too, and once you've gotten the whole lever action thing, it's a fine weapon.

[BigBlue92]

Chuck, or anyone else on here, do you reload? I would love to learn to do that, before I invest in a bunch of equipment.

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[KeithKSR]

Chuck, or anyone else on here, do you reload? I would love to learn to do that, before I invest in a bunch of equipment.

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I don't reload, but would expect people to begin to reload more if any kind of ammo restrictions are put in place.