My friend in NYC

[MickintheHam]

One of my fraternity brothers with whom I maintain contact several times a year called me out of the blue yesterday. He is a life long New Yorker and lives out on Long Island and has carried water for the liberal agenda his whole life. He differed with Obama only on the treatment of the Jewish state.

He asked me about three apartment complexes in my area. “Mick, I am moving to Birmingham, I can no longer afford to live in New York. I have done a lot of research and Birmingham looks like a great place to live.”

I told him, “Bill, we don’t provide all the state funded services you are accustomed to in NY.”

“Mick, that doesn’t matter, I don’t benefit from any of them.”

“But, Bill, we don’t have subways, and we only have one Amrak train. The bus system needs an overhaul. You will have to buy a car.”

“I can buy a real nice car for what I’ll save th first year, or take Uber the rest of my life.”

We chatted for about an hour, comparing utility bills, cost and quality of food, the climate and health services. To quote one of my favorite democrats, “The chickens have come home to roost”.

[Doc]

Democrats love to spend OTHER PEOPLES MONEY. Those who pine for single payer health insurance or college tuition for all fail to look at the tax systems of countries that provide them. When only 1/2 the population pays federal income tax, you cant afford those benefits. Countries that do have a base where all citizens pay taxes. In the USA, those lower income folks would rather keep their money and have the rich foot the bill but reality is that when ALL pay, those things are affordable

[suncat05]

And so we continue to see this pattern of movement wherein lots of people from these Democrat run places like New York, California, and Illinois continue to move to states like Florida, Tennessee, Texas or Colorado, where state taxes and state income taxes either do not exist or are very low to get away from places where they have lived because of the overtaxing by their Democrat Party.
Guys, these people are still going to vote Democrat most of the time. That is not likely to change. So we are seeing a migration of a cancer from one place to another.
Florida is catching more than its fair share of these folks, with lots of these folks coming from up north to here AND the movement of people from Puerto Rico to Florida after Hurricane Maria.
The cancer is spreading.

[bigsky]

Suncat is right. Seattle and Portland Move to Montana and remake is into the left coast

[kingcat]

Expensive to live in the major cities. Is he retired?

[MickintheHam]

Expensive to live in the major cities. Is he retired?

Yes, he is retired and was looking for a state with a low cost of living and one that did not tax Social Security. And I’m sure he will continue his support for the Democrat Party.

[Doc]

Democrats are always wanting to spend somebody elses money

[KentuckyWildcat]

or college tuition for all

This one is hilarious. I work for a college. We are all struggling for money. State dollars are reduced every year but suddenly, Bernie thinks we can afford free college? The Gov cant afford not free college. We are closer to being a for profit system than we are a free college for all.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[Doc]

This one is hilarious. I work for a college. We are all struggling for money. State dollars are reduced every year but suddenly, Bernie thinks we can afford free college? The Gov cant afford not free college. We are closer to being a for profit system than we are a free college for all.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

but if it gets you votes, game on

[CitizenBBN]

Heck, socialist what's her name has promised free college, free health care, wiping out student debt, universal minimum income, etc.

So far she's up to around $40 trillion in spending, and bats those pretty eyes and refuses to explain where the first penny of it is coming from to pay the bill. Just so long as she's elected what does reality matter?

[MickintheHam]

Heck, socialist what's her name has promised free college, free health care, wiping out student debt, universal minimum income, etc.

So far she's up to around $40 trillion in spending, and bats those pretty eyes and refuses to explain where the first penny of it is coming from to pay the bill. Just so long as she's elected what does reality matter?

When the guy called me I told him I hoped the socialist running against Cuomo would win. We need to elect some of these idiots to certify their Kookie ideas don’t work.

[ukpumacat]

And so we continue to see this pattern of movement wherein lots of people from these Democrat run places like New York, California, and Illinois continue to move to states like Florida, Tennessee, Texas or Colorado, where state taxes and state income taxes either do not exist or are very low to get away from places where they have lived because of the overtaxing by their Democrat Party.

This is just not true. Or at the very best it is misleading.

The fastest growing states in the US are almost on the West Coast: Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Colorado and Arizona. Those are mostly liberal to moderate states. Florida is the only state in the Top 8 that isn't on the West Coast.

There are numerous reasons for people moving to those states and too many to list here.

There are also numerous reasons people are moving from the states that are losing people the fastest: New York, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, Wyoming, Vermont, Illinois and New York. Kansas, Ohio and Kentucky are also in the Top 10 of that list according to USA Today.

There is no way you can look at those fastest growing and declining states and simply say its because of their liberal policies. Housing prices would almost always be the number one reason. Jobs. Climate. All kinds of reasons of course come into play.

California isn't in the Top 10 of either list. Its BY FAR the most populous state in the Unites States at 40 million people. Our housing prices are just through the roof. And that is simply the law of supply and demand. There are a lot more people that want to live here (or do live here) than there are houses for.
And even though our population growth has slowed, it is still growing faster than new homes being built. That is our problem.
I absolutely love it here. I have lived all over the United States. I came here 20 years ago and knew I wouldn't leave.
Having said that, the housing prices are still just crazy. I could live in an absolute mansion almost anywhere else for what I pay here.
A 2,000 sq ft, 3 bedroom home in a decent neighborhood in my city would easily cost $800-$900,000. That isn't because people are "leaving this liberal state". Its because people WANT to live here and so the market just keeps going up.

As much as I love it, I could definitely see myself leaving when all kids are out of school. That is what many people do here. They retire elsewhere simply because they can purchase a much nicer home somewhere else (Utah, Idaho and Arizona are very popular choices) and live off of the difference for the rest of their lives. Again, its not because of income taxes, etc. Its simply supply and demand. And living here is high demand.

[UKHistory]

Lord take me home to Kentucky with the lower cost of living.

I get the joy in bashing liberals. It is what happens here. I get it.

I think it speaks more to economics than social issues.

New York costs money to live. Space is limited. Supply and demand.

Unless you are soicially ties to the coasts everyone who has some money but not unlimited would want to live where it can go farther.

[Catonahottinroof]

I don’t know enough about California since I’ve not lived there or have family or friends there, but in Illinois and New York this is the absolute truth.

This is just not true. Or at the very best it is misleading.

The fastest growing states in the US are almost on the West Coast: Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Colorado and Arizona. Those are mostly liberal to moderate states. Florida is the only state in the Top 8 that isn't on the West Coast.

There are numerous reasons for people moving to those states and too many to list here.

There are also numerous reasons people are moving from the states that are losing people the fastest: New York, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, Wyoming, Vermont, Illinois and New York. Kansas, Ohio and Kentucky are also in the Top 10 of that list according to USA Today.

There is no way you can look at those fastest growing and declining states and simply say its because of their liberal policies. Housing prices would almost always be the number one reason. Jobs. Climate. All kinds of reasons of course come into play.

California isn't in the Top 10 of either list. Its BY FAR the most populous state in the Unites States at 40 million people. Our housing prices are just through the roof. And that is simply the law of supply and demand. There are a lot more people that want to live here (or do live here) than there are houses for.
And even though our population growth has slowed, it is still growing faster than new homes being built. That is our problem.
I absolutely love it here. I have lived all over the United States. I came here 20 years ago and knew I wouldn't leave.
Having said that, the housing prices are still just crazy. I could live in an absolute mansion almost anywhere else for what I pay here.
A 2,000 sq ft, 3 bedroom home in a decent neighborhood in my city would easily cost $800-$900,000. That isn't because people are "leaving this liberal state". Its because people WANT to live here and so the market just keeps going up.

As much as I love it, I could definitely see myself leaving when all kids are out of school. That is what many people do here. They retire elsewhere simply because they can purchase a much nicer home somewhere else (Utah, Idaho and Arizona are very popular choices) and live off of the difference for the rest of their lives. Again, its not because of income taxes, etc. Its simply supply and demand. And living here is high demand.

[CitizenBBN]

It's a combination of factors, but to dismiss high tax rates as part of an overall high cost of living that is driving these shits is just disingenuous. Clearly it's a factor just like home prices are a factor.

key factors in these shifts:

1) Climate. People don't flock to California if it had Minnesota winters. Pretty simple, but people are moving to states with less snow and easier winters. Florida, Texas western states outside California, etc.

2) Cost of living. This is obvious enough, but this is where both true market forces AND government imposed costs both operate together.

Fortunately, we can break down those costs at least somewhat.

a) Housing costs - land only. This has a market component based on demand for location, but also a strong government factor.

1) Market forces. Only so much land, so if everyone wants to live on key West island, costs go up. That's not on government, but...

2) Government has a TON of control over zoning and land use, and how much a city expands to deal with that space. It controls water an sewer and such, what is developed and what isn't. It has TREMENDOUS impact on those prices.

so in Texas, there is little such limitation, so towns like Houston are spread out over all Creation, but costs are low b/c as soon as land goes up too much they go down the road and build another subdivision.

In California or for example Lexington, where there are a lot of restrictions on development, land costs go up and up and up.

So yes there is a demand component that is market driven, but a big part of it is also government policy.

b) Housing costs - construction

There is a market force here, but truthfully 2x4s cost about the same everywhere. So the cost differences, and they are large, are a function of labor (which is higher again due to market and government forces) and the government requirements on construction.

Again, there is a LOT of government impact on those costs. it costs less to build a house in Mt. Sterling than it does Lexington, or in Georgetown for that matter versus Lexington. It costs even more in California.

Now some of that is well reasoned, like earthquakes. Some of it is just bureaucracy and overhead, like having to get a building permit for everything, etc. Some of it is also imposed bureaucracy like HOA agreements and such.

c) Other costs -

Here is where government can have a big role, and a multiplier effect. Does anyone think a $15 minimum wage isn't a huge cost infusion for everyone?

There's a reason Texas and Florida are so appealing: no income taxes. Whack a cool 13% (california v. Texas, a big migration point) off your annual expenses, see how that makes you feel.

Puma mentioned those other states, OK. Nevada: 0%, Arizona 4.5%, New Mexico 4.9%. So you're going to save 7-8% right off the top in state taxes alone.

FWIW people are looking outside of Fayette county for the same reason. 2.2% income tax on top of state taxes. There's a reason those neighborhoods just across the Jessamine county line are so popular.

Add in all the sales taxes, local taxes, regulations, etc. and government is clearly a big part of the cost difference between say Texas and California.


So it's not just government, but government is a huge part of it. If we factor out land costs and market factors its clear a lot of the costs are still government imposed. Some are wise and necessary, like earthquake level construction in california, but much if not most of it is typical bureaucracy and overhead from people afraid to let the market actually function.

[ukpumacat]

Just want to make sure I’m clear....I totally understand and agree Taxes play a role in this. A large one.

But the quote I was replying to made a matter of fact statement about people moving for liberal reasons alone. And I just don’t agree with that.

I understand fully the politics of California and the taxes that happen as a result. And I’m fine with those.
If I move that won’t be the reason.
And no doubt those politics play a small role in my housing price. But it’s small.
I can move 20 min inland in the exact same state and county and save about $300,000 on the exact same house. Maybe more frankly. And that is my choice.
Im the one choosing to live 5 min from the beach. No liberal policies involved there. Ha

[CitizenBBN]

Like i said, climate and things like beach clearly drive a lot of demand in those locations.

But I do think some of the exodus we are starting to see is also not just economics but leftism running out of fuel. Not liberalism, but leftism, is such an extreme version it doesn't want to coexist with capitalism, so it ends up killing the golden goose. Capitalism is the best means of wealth creation ever conceived. Liberalism tries to balance that with other factors, and that's OK. Leftism takes that to the point of actively trying to stop and undermine capitalism, and in the end, as Margaret Thatcher said, it runs out of other people's money and fails.

San Francisco, long a haven of alternative socialization, is showing severe strain for its leftism, with crime rising quickly, homelessness out of control and causing a lot of problems, etc. It still has a lot to offer, but things like unrepentant blessing of poverty and $15 minimum wages etc. are taking their toll.

New York went through a lot of crime and issues, then Guliani got in and went more conservative and cracked down and it cleaned things up a lot. Now they are going the other way with a leftist mayor.


As for the role taxes etc. play in it I bet you'd be surprised if we added it all up. The tax bill on the average upper middle class family is vastly higher than reported, and the overhead that absorbs it is staggering.

No it won't be a big part of the land cost on a beach house, but it's a massive drain on our nation, and more of that burden is in higher tax, higher regulation states, and I think we'll see some shifting around in response. California won't empty, but it will lose people. So will new York, and it's not like the weather in New York is really worth staying for either.

[MickintheHam]

Lord take me home to Kentucky with the lower cost of living.

I get the joy in bashing liberals. It is what happens here. I get it.

I think it speaks more to economics than social issues.

New York costs money to live. Space is limited. Supply and demand.

Unless you are soicially ties to the coasts everyone who has some money but not unlimited would want to live where it can go farther.

You cannot separate the two. Government has tremendous influence on retirees financial future. The biggest pieces of a retirees expenses are taxes, utilities and healthcare. All of these are managed by government officials. A 2% increase in Social Security is quickly gobbled up by the resulting taxes and Automatic Medicare premium increases. The only way for a retiree to increase disposable income is to get away from these government mandated social costs. I assure you Bill’s increase in disposable income will be more than four fold by leaving the Socialist Republic of New York State.

[Catonahottinroof]

Tax rates and taxes paid on median income per state. All 3 states discussed are in the bottom 3rd of this list.
Kentucky isn’t setting the world on fire either...
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst...taxpayer/2416/

[MickintheHam]

Tax rates and taxes paid on median income per state. All 3 states discussed are in the bottom 3rd of this list.
Kentucky isn’t setting the world on fire either...
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst...taxpayer/2416/

I’m sorry, but taxes are truly oriented to an individual’s personal situation. Averages don’t tell the whole picture. Some taxes can be avoided. Others hit everyone the same. If you own 10,000 acres of land the averages don’t apply to you. To some extent you can avoid sales and use taxes. But if you are retired you can’t get past the fact that 13 states tax SS benefits. If you live in one of those states and SS benefits are a significant part of your income, you are screwed.

[CitizenBBN]

I’m sorry, but taxes are truly oriented to an individual’s personal situation. Averages don’t tell the whole picture. Some taxes can be avoided. Others hit everyone the same. If you own 10,000 acres of land the averages don’t apply to you. To some extent you can avoid sales and use taxes. But if you are retired you can’t get past the fact that 13 states tax SS benefits. If you live in one of those states and SS benefits are a significant part of your income, you are screwed.

I have to agree the averages don't tell the tale very well.

Kentucky does have high taxes relative to services, as do some other states in our league, but to measure the true tax effect we have to add up a lot of small taxes and other things that increase costs.

[Catonahottinroof]

It’s only a barometer. If you look at at other factors, (cost of home ownership, property tax on that ownership, locality taxes, etc) NY and IL are way, way out of whack. California’s property tax rate is actually less than say in Kentucky. Population plays into that a great deal.
My uncle sold his home in Illinois about 3 yrs ago. He’s comfy, but not particularly wealthy per se. his reasoning for selling his home of 25 years? Illinois property taxes are so out of whack that he was paying $700 a month in taxes to live in his own already paid for home...so now he lives in Western Kentucky off of Kentucky lake. Same home value (much more home, lake access, etc) as Illinois, about 1/3 of the tax rate. When his daughter learned of how much her dad liked it, she moved her family. Same result. Her husband is a Union electrician. He found a union scale job within a week of their move to Lone Oak.
I have a friend who is a photographer by trade who lives in Owensboro who is originally from upstate New York. Very similar situation there too. Home prices aren’t near as expensive in the upstate as in NYC, but the property tax rates are nearly as brutal. He said it’s like having an extra paycheck every month. My cousin’s husband in Lone Oak has told me the same thing.
That becomes even more important when your income is fixed....

[Doc]

It’s only a barometer. If you look at at other factors, (cost of home ownership, property tax on that ownership, locality taxes, etc) NY and IL are way, way out of whack. California’s property tax rate is actually less than say in Kentucky. Population plays into that a great deal.
My uncle sold his home in Illinois about 3 yrs ago. He’s comfy, but not particularly wealthy per se. his reasoning for selling his home of 25 years? Illinois property taxes are so out of whack that he was paying $700 a month in taxes to live in his own already paid for home...so now he lives in Western Kentucky off of Kentucky lake. Same home value (much more home, lake access, etc) as Illinois, about 1/3 of the tax rate. When his daughter learned of how much her dad liked it, she moved her family. Same result. Her husband is a Union electrician. He found a union scale job within a week of their move to Lone Oak.
I have a friend who is a photographer by trade who lives in Owensboro who is originally from upstate New York. Very similar situation there too. Home prices aren’t near as expensive in the upstate as in NYC, but the property tax rates are nearly as brutal. He said it’s like having an extra paycheck every month. My cousin’s husband in Lone Oak has told me the same thing.
That becomes even more important when your income is fixed....

we are at a similar stage. we will be building our retirement home in Colorado but keep a home in FL as well that we will reside in for 6 month simply for the tax benefit, plus i'll do some spot work here and there

[KeithKSR]

Tax rates and taxes paid on median income per state. All 3 states discussed are in the bottom 3rd of this list.
Kentucky isn’t setting the world on fire either...
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst...taxpayer/2416/

Kentucky being on the list where it is bolsters the argument that tax and spend liberals prompt people to look toward greener pastures. The Dems in Kentucky have run the state for most of our lifetimes.

[KeithKSR]

I’m sorry, but taxes are truly oriented to an individual’s personal situation. Averages don’t tell the whole picture. Some taxes can be avoided. Others hit everyone the same. If you own 10,000 acres of land the averages don’t apply to you. To some extent you can avoid sales and use taxes. But if you are retired you can’t get past the fact that 13 states tax SS benefits. If you live in one of those states and SS benefits are a significant part of your income, you are screwed.

Kentucky not taxing retirement benefits at the same rate as other states, and lower real estate taxes is beneficial to Kentucky retirees.

[bigsky]

Public pension and other state deficits, and egregious new state business regulations will factor into the exodus. There is future shock out there

[CitizenBBN]

Public pension and other state deficits, and egregious new state business regulations will factor into the exodus. There is future shock out there

States have spent decades buying votes with massive public pension programs, never paying them up b/c they were using the money for other things, and they are all coming home to roost.

[Doc]

If private industry, ie Wall Street, does what states do concerning pensions, they would be jailed. Stripped down, its a ponzi scheme

[Catonahottinroof]

Kentucky is in that very mess due to Wallace Wilkinson not funding pensions....
Every Kentucky governor since has underfunded following his lead.
Bevin has tried to fix it, and is being challenged at every turn.

[Doc]

Its easy for candidate to promise and give crazy pensions because it not their administration that ends up paying them out. I can promise you $1,000,000 ten years in the future without consequence and let the person after me deal with fulfilling that promise. Of course Soc Sec works the same way, and tons of other government programs. Of course the gov't can always print money to satisfy the need