No, there's no deep state

[badrose]

Have elected officials seen anything yet? If not, that should tell us something.

[kingcat]

Mueller is one of the good guys. There is bipartisan support for that.

That said, there is an obvious case for obstruction,, no there is obvious obstruction of justice by the administration currently in progress. This is a huge political game i agree but it’s one where the President with the support of his base is obstructing Justice to a degree previously unheard of. The excuse has changed over time and now has turned to attack a man who no one, besides the president, can actually find fault in, The accusations are unfounded or else he would have been history weeks back.

He will finish the investigations and we can only hope that the actions, which seem to point to some level of guilt , show no knowledge of malfeasance regarding the investigation by the president himself. The obstruction issue has been resolved unless Mr Mueller can be dismissed in some way. If he is fired the president will face impeachment. It’s that simple

Sorry about my typing I can’t phone typevery well

[CitizenBBN]

Mueller is one of the good guys. There is bipartisan support for that.

That said, there is an obvious case for obstruction,, no there is obvious obstruction of justice by the administration currently in progress. This is a huge political game i agree but it’s one where the President with the support of hias base is obstructing Justice to a degree previously unheard of. The excuse has changed over time and now has turned to attack a man who no one, besides the president, can actually find fault in, The accusations are unfounded or else he would have been history weeks back.

He will finish the investigations and we can only hope that the actions, which seem to point to some level of guilt , show no knowledge of malfeasance regarding the investigation by the president himself. The obstruction issue has been resolved unless Mr Mueller can be dismissed in some way. If he is fired the president will face impeachment. It’s that simple

Sorry about my typing I can’t phone typevery well

I disagree Mueller is one of the good guys. I disagree there is bi-partisan support for it (as you have picked Democrats and the old guard GOP that most of us in the GOP want to run out of office).

I disagree there is anything so far that even whiffs of obstruction of justice, and so far it's not even close to any number of historical cases of it I can mention, including many that were never even considered an issue.

Other than that we're in complete agreement. I think this is starting to get us someplace.

[CitizenBBN]

Have elected officials seen anything yet? If not, that should tell us something.

When the FBI is redacting information about a $70,000 conference table from Congress, and such redactions only should occur for purposes of protecting "sources and methods" of investigations and national security, it's beyond obvious our elected officials are being kept in the dark like mushrooms by the FBI and DOJ senior staff.

[kingcat]

If you are right, you unequivocally fire Mueller then. To allow it is the same as condoning it and you are then complicit. He has that authority.

And surely the GOP congress will vote to protect their party's leader.
So why the inaction?

As an aside, I miss Brian and Darrell chiming in on the legal implications of situations such as this as they once did.

[Doc]

More equivalent to finding a racist couple of cops in a large city and then claiming the whole department is crooked.
And then refusing to agree with the department investigating a potential major crime because the minority is involved.

OJ Simpson was found not.guilty in large part because mark.Furman was shown to be a racist. You're talking about the people heading the investigation, not just "some people in the departmant"

[kingcat]

Then you fire them and show proof to the American people and congress. Simple.

The difference is that the President has that power and the means to present the truth...and the obligation

[bigsky]

Who was the last american President truth teller? Eisenhower?

Eisenhower. In case you’re counting, he left office practically 60 years ago.

Bread and circuses fellas.

[KeithKSR]

If you are right, you unequivocally fire Mueller then. To allow it is the same as condoning it and you are then complicit. He has that authority.

And surely the GOP congress will vote to protect their party's leader.
So why the inaction?

As an aside, I miss Brian and Darrell chiming in on the legal implications of situations such as this as they once did.

Mueller should never have been put in place. Think about it. Rosenstein recommends the Comey firing, Comey is fired. Then Rosenstein appoints Mueller because Comey is fired.

You cannot have obstruction of justice without a requisite criminal act to be covered up. Let’s pretend collusion took place. Collusion isn’t an illegal act, therefore you cannot have obstruction of justice.

In regards to Mueller. The guy has no interest in crime, just convictions. He modus operandi has always been grill people until there is something said that someone else contradicts and then nail them with lying to a federal agent. He then lawyers them into submission by upcharging and forcing them to spend every penny they can scrape up for a legal defense through copious subpoenas, and every conceivable allegation he can come up with. Once he breaks them financially he then starts to threaten their family members with similar treatment. Finally, he tells them a guilty plea to lying to a federal agent and minimal jail time will make it all go away. Broken and broke the defendant acquiesces.

That’s what he did to Martha Stewart, that is what he did to Flynn. However, in the Flynn case info came out that the agents interviewing Flynn didn’t think he lied to them and the judge is now telling Mueller to slow his roll. It is a very big no-no for Mueller, as an officer of the court, to allow a defendant to plead guilty to a crime that Mueller knows was not committed; although this has received little media play.

Interestingly, Peter Strzok is the FBI agent who interviewed Flynn and did not feel Flynn lied during the interview. https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...investigation/

[KeithKSR]

Then you fire them and show proof to the American people and congress. Simple.

The difference is that the President has that power and the means to present the truth...and the obligation

There is where you are wrong. While the President has the legal authority to release everything we have a DOJ that doesn’t feel it answers to anyone, which is why they are obstructing release of information.

[kingcat]

https://www.lawfareblog.com/terrible...-investigation

[kingcat]

http://time.com/time-person-of-the-y...ler-runner-up/

"For all the focus on Trump and his inner circle, the Russia investigation is about something bigger than the conduct or outcome of the presidential campaign. The U.S. intelligence community concluded, and still believes, that the primary goal of the Russian operation was to undermine faith in American democracy at home and abroad. Mueller is America’s answer to that challenge, the personification of the idea that rule of law remains paramount—even, or especially, when it touches our core democratic processes and our most powerful government officials"


I believe this and only his dispensing of facts and any conclusion or decisions the courts and or Congress makes matter.
I do not live in a country governed by a party, a man, or innuendo and fake news.
But by the rule of law.

This is too important of a matter to sweep under the rug.. It is an investigation of an attack on the United States of America.
An act of war as real as any in our history.
And I know where my allegiance lies.

And despite what many think, I do not want innocent people hurt. And I am certain no one investigating does either.
But there have been now, eleven confirmed contacts with our enemy by those in the president's campaign relative to helping Donald Trump.

Mueller needs to clear that up for me. And I would think everyone should want to know for certain.

Because no matter the argument at this point, you do not. (Not you personally Keith, but everyone)

[Catonahottinroof]

Fixed it for ya..

Monkeys and circuses fellas.

[kingcat]

But we know that freedom cannot be served by the devices of the tyrant. As it is an ancient truth that freedom cannot be legislated into existence, so it is no less obvious that freedom cannot be censored into existence. And any who act as if freedoms defenses are to be found in suppression and suspicion and fear confess a doctrine that is alien to America.

And relative to the severity of any foreign attack on our voting system

Our American heritage is threatened as much by our own indifference as it is by the most unscrupulous office or by the most powerful foreign threat. The future of this republic is in the hands of the American voter.

..Dwight D. Eisenhower

[kingcat]

The rule of law does more than ensure freedom from high-handed action by rulers. It ensures justice between man and man however humble the one and however powerful the other. A man with five dollars in the bank can call to account the corporation with five billion dollars in assets-and the two will be heard as equals before the law

..Dwight D. Eisenhower.

[CitizenBBN]

11 confirmed contacts? OMG, run for the hills! lol

Don't you see that in modern Washington that's not even unusual? it's low by DNC/Clinton standards, who have had 100s of contacts and payments and everything else. while Hillary was SoS Bill wasn't just being in contact, he was in Moscow giving speeches for $500K. We have a memo from one of his chief runners talking about how he's gotten foreign powers to give MILLIONS to the Clintons in perks and speaking fees. And that's just the Clintons.

Context is what you are missing. Did Russia conspire to influence American politics and policy? yes. Do you think, seriously, this was the first election they did so? Do you think they only reached out to this outsider Trump and all those contacts with Hillary's people, like her campaign manager's brother, are all just innocent lunch dates?

if not, then why aren't the others being investigated? Why isn't Uranium One in his list of things to investigate, when we have a sequestered FBI witness saying the Russians were bragging about influencing Clinton at Sec to state?

If you want an investigation into Russia's impact on the US, and you really believe it's that serious of a threat, you should be more outraged than anyone on here about the conduct of the investigation to date. the fact that you aren't says you are only interested in investigating Trump b/c you have come into this with the assumptive belief that he is the one colluding with them and only him.

That's clearly not been the case, the power brokers in washington have clearly long been colluding with LOTS of foreign powers for a long time, but you only seem to care about this narrow band of investigation.

This is just creating sacrificial lambs to give the impression we have addressed this threat. That's what politicians do best, and you're swallowing their sales pitch. The truth is both parties are up to their armpits in questioanble contacts with all kinds of foreign powers, but if they hand everyone this outsider Trump then no one bothers to look under their skirts.

You'll see that as changing the subject, but again that's just being myopic. The truth is Washington was corrupt on this front long before Trump ever ran for office. You want to push back on Russian meddling? Great. Then get behind a REAL investigation and not this straw job.

[kingcat]

I've said all I can say. Before there are any results you have ruled it a straw job.
And so one can only conclude you do not care what the facts may eventually prove to be.
Only that you disagree with who is looking for them.

Personally I dont have to be right....only convinced. Much like the majority in Congress and of the American people, and the world.

Mr Mueller will help accomplish that. And if it requires further investigation doesn't matter..

And so it should be to an eventual mutual satisfaction.
But those danged alternate facts may prevent it for some.


Anyway, thanks to the forum for letting me speak up. Ive felt comfortable doing so.

[KeithKSR]

https://www.lawfareblog.com/terrible...-investigation

The guy uses this to prove the Mueller appointment is lawful:

Title 28 U.S.C. § 546 provides that, until the Senate confirms a presidential nominee, U.S. attorney vacancies can be filled for up to 120 days by an appointment made by the attorney general and then indefinitely by local district courts

Let us assume that is correct usage of the code. Since Mueller has not been appointed by any local district court he was limited to 120 days, which has long since lapsed.

[KeithKSR]

http://time.com/time-person-of-the-y...ler-runner-up/

"For all the focus on Trump and his inner circle, the Russia investigation is about something bigger than the conduct or outcome of the presidential campaign. The U.S. intelligence community concluded, and still believes, that the primary goal of the Russian operation was to undermine faith in American democracy at home and abroad. Mueller is America’s answer to that challenge, the personification of the idea that rule of law remains paramount—even, or especially, when it touches our core democratic processes and our most powerful government officials"


I believe this and only his dispensing of facts and any conclusion or decisions the courts and or Congress makes matter.
I do not live in a country governed by a party, a man, or innuendo and fake news.
But by the rule of law.

This is too important of a matter to sweep under the rug.. It is an investigation of an attack on the United States of America.
An act of war as real as any in our history.
And I know where my allegiance lies.

And despite what many think, I do not want innocent people hurt. And I am certain no one investigating does either.
But there have been now, eleven confirmed contacts with our enemy by those in the president's campaign relative to helping Donald Trump.

Mueller needs to clear that up for me. And I would think everyone should want to know for certain.

Because no matter the argument at this point, you do not. (Not you personally Keith, but everyone)

The problem is that the last thing being looked for here is that the undermining of our confidence in elections is not being examined in lieu of a witch hunt.

Dershowitz is correct that we needed no special counsel, and just needed a special Congressional committee to examine what could be done to prevent interference in future elections.

To date the only collusion found is that between Russian operative, Steele and the Hillary campaign to produce the dossier.

[kingcat]

We have no clue yet as to what Mueller might have. Therein lies the rub on the far right and the fear of testimony.

The I don't want to know attitude is very disheartening.

[KeithKSR]

We have no clue yet as to what Mueller might have. Therein lies the rub on the far right and the fear of testimony.

If Mueller had anything he would hand down meaningful indictments.

[kingcat]

If Mueller had anything he would hand down meaningful indictments.

Then there is no cause for concern. It will be exposed as a farce and everyone will go home happy.

I'll be happy myself knowing democracy endures and the republic is safe.

And id like to point out the majority of meaningful opinions is not only that of the far right. About three out of ten who consider themselves conservatives agree with me.

Because of that, my friends here discard them as as "not really republicans" That is a shame imho.
And it's the reason some of our good friends here who ARE Republican no longer frequent this forum.

Anyway Im on an island here. So I'll back out.

[Catonahottinroof]

I agree with that. The longer it drags out the less credibility he has, just as with Ken Starr.

If Mueller had anything he would hand down meaningful indictments.

[kingcat]

That "witch hunt" lasted several years

[KeithKSR]

That "witch hunt" lasted several years

That witch hunt should not have exceeded the boundaries of its original task, and neither should this one. The problem with these prosecutors is that they are determined to find something to justify the huge expense.

[Doc]

Who was the last american President truth teller? Eisenhower?

Eisenhower. In case you’re counting, he left office practically 60 years ago.

Bread and circuses fellas.

George Washington..he did in fact chop down the cherry tree

[Doc]

Then you fire them and show proof to the American people and congress. Simple.

The difference is that the President has that power and the means to present the truth...and the obligation

So you think Trump should fire Mueller? Please, a democrats wet dream. They tried to crucify Trump for firing Comey, a guy the left wanted fired months previously, an incompetent nob who was leaking more infomation to the press than he was keeping private. The left would claim firing Meuller was collusion and a cover up because he found something.

[Doc]

http://time.com/time-person-of-the-y...ler-runner-up/

"For all the focus on Trump and his inner circle, the Russia investigation is about something bigger than the conduct or outcome of the presidential campaign. The U.S. intelligence community concluded, and still believes, that the primary goal of the Russian operation was to undermine faith in American democracy at home and abroad. Mueller is America’s answer to that challenge, the personification of the idea that rule of law remains paramount—even, or especially, when it touches our core democratic processes and our most powerful government officials"


I believe this and only his dispensing of facts and any conclusion or decisions the courts and or Congress makes matter.
I do not live in a country governed by a party, a man, or innuendo and fake news.
But by the rule of law.

This is too important of a matter to sweep under the rug.. It is an investigation of an attack on the United States of America.
An act of war as real as any in our history.
And I know where my allegiance lies.

And despite what many think, I do not want innocent people hurt. And I am certain no one investigating does either.
But there have been now, eleven confirmed contacts with our enemy by those in the president's campaign relative to helping Donald Trump.

Mueller needs to clear that up for me. And I would think everyone should want to know for certain.

Because no matter the argument at this point, you do not. (Not you personally Keith, but everyone)

and yet it seems Mueller et al have ignored the Russian Democrat connection. This started with a dossier created by a Russian operative and given to the CLINTON campaign who used it.That in and of itself shows more "Russian involvement" than anything they have come up with on Trump. I'm like you. I don't want Russia or anybody influencing our election (including noncitizens/illegals who vote) but Russia ain't our friend. They are our enemies despite what Obama and Clinton thought, and as our enemies they will try such tactics. The USA is no different, we just do it to our allies like Israel.

[CitizenBBN]

I've said all I can say. Before there are any results you have ruled it a straw job.
And so one can only conclude you do not care what the facts may eventually prove to be.
Only that you disagree with who is looking for them.

Personally I dont have to be right....only convinced. Much like the majority in Congress and of the American people, and the world.

Mr Mueller will help accomplish that. And if it requires further investigation doesn't matter..

And so it should be to an eventual mutual satisfaction.
But those danged alternate facts may prevent it for some.


Anyway, thanks to the forum for letting me speak up. Ive felt comfortable doing so.

I care what the facts are, I am just willing to consider ALL the facts, not just cherry pick them to suit a pre-biased belief system or assumptions made based on appearance or the claims of those with a clear vested interest.

See, I believe ALL these guys are corrupt, and I have mountains of evidence to prove it going back decades of observation. So do I think people around Trump were happy to use their access to get brown nosed by lots of people, foreigners included? Sure I do. But I also see that those around every major political player are doing the same thing and have for a very long time, and I won't shoot one guy for jaywalking while others are still doing it.

I think I believe, in the end, in justice more than you, b/c I don't want selective justice but equality before the law. Justice unevenly applied is not justice, it's vendetta. When Mueller starts asking Podesta about his brother, and starts asking FBI agents why they were trying to get their kids jobs with the Clinton campaign at the same time they were investigating the email server, then I'll feel like the "facts" will come out.

Until then I know what we'll see is a very selective cherry picking of "facts". Some of them may be true, but in absence of context they lose perspective. That's how this stuff gets sold, by saying "see here's the proof" without looking at the overall picture.

So far nothing that has come out rises to the level of a crime, and in fact if Trump had met with Putin directly to orchestrate their involvement it's not even a crime, so no I don't see much coming of this that is "fact". I see the swamp pushing back as hard as they can against having their little fiefdoms upset, from the DOJ to FBI to the GOP leadership.

[Doc]

We have no clue yet as to what Mueller might have. Therein lies the rub on the far right and the fear of testimony.

The I don't want to know attitude is very disheartening.

thats because James Comey doesnt work for him to leak it to the press