NOKO Peace Summit

[blueboss]

CNN is now spinning it as shunning our allies to buddy up with our most dangerous foe.

Will NOKO honor their agreement for denuclearization?

Huge step forward...


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[UKHistory]

Even without nuclear weapons, North Korea has a conventional force that can rein destruction on South Korea.

Trump appears to have unilaterally ended the joint war games we have held with our allies for decades. He openly admits he wants to bring our troops home. The meager number of troops we have is a trip wire force designed to keep North Korea at bay.

For any who have forgotten, North Korea is supported by China and bolstered by Russia to a lesser extent. Axis of evil.

Trump accosts our allies in Europe and Asia while praising foreign dictators.

This isn’t spin. This isn’t fake news. read objectively the quotes trump makes about the bad guys and what he says about the good guys.

Donald trump is not in any way acting in th best interest of the United States or its people.

[Doc]

So we are actually going to criticize him for this? We get it. People HATE Donald Trump thus trying to get N. Korea to denuclurize is a bad thing. Barach Obama won a Noble peace prize for doing nothing but promising to work with the middle east. Jimmy Carter won a Noble Peace price by brokering a deal with Yassar Arafat (you know, leader of the PLO who was responsible for the death of millions simply because of their religion....including women and children) and now reverred as one of the all time great peacemakers ...but Trump takes an approach different from something that has not worked for 50 years to try to resolve a situation where somebody is trying to lob NUCLEAR WARHEAD MISSLES at THIS country and its a bad thing. Maybe he should have sent them a plane full of cash along with an agreement with more holes in it than a 70's porn film, and the hermit king would have promised to stop for 10 years, just like Iran.

Our troops in S Korea are meaningless. We have ample forces in Japan, Guam and multiple other spots in the S Pacific. The US got all in a tizzy when Russia parked some nukes 50 miles from our border in Cuba...called it a crisis. Imagine that KJU doesnt feel too safe with troops that he is officially at war with in a similar situation. As for the war exercises, those are nothing but huffing and puffing to show what we got and what we can do. Always was and always will be. "Lets float some big ships off your coast, shoot some fake bombs" and call it an exercise because we want to be sure our missles work...because if anything actually happens, we sit 200 miles away and level the country with missles and smart bombs.

As for China, Trump has put tons of pressure on China to pressure NK. You think he hasn't? You think China is our lapdog who does as we ask?

As for our Allies in Europe, I suspect Trump wants FREE trade. He sees tariffs on USA products into countries yet theirs are not when they come into the USA. Thats not free trade. He is telling Canada to drop their dairy tariff, but thats not how its reported. Instead its a Trade War which sounds better.


So trying to bring peace and sticking up for the USA might not have been what the last president did, but I'm fine with Trump not saying "I'm sorry for being better than you", or "its our fault your country is in the shape its in", or "We all need to just be one happy family and trust that you will do too". IMO meeting with KJU is probably the most presidential thing he has done

[UKHistory]

Yes cancelling war games without discussing s Korea and Japan is a bad idea.

Our troops stationed in South Korea is a trip wire. If we aren’t there with tactical nukes, North Korea could surge over the 38th parallel and occupy part of South Korea before we can respond.

Being there means North Korea has to kill Americans in sufficient. Umbers that forces a response.

If we aren’t physically in South Korea, the math changes.

I am for peace. Peace through strength. Giving up the war games could be construed as the US from retreTing from the world allowing geographically closer thugs like China and Russia to flex their muscles in Asia and Europe.

And I’d say that about any leader jumping into a summit with North Korea.

[UKHistory]

Chamberlain met with Hitler too. Eating with a thug doesn’t make you a leader. Bowing to their wishes makes you an appeaser. Supporting thugs over democratically elected leaders makes you an accomplice to totalitarianism.

[UKHistory]

And talking respectfully is better than hurling threats and insults. But trump relates far better to bad guys than democratically elected leaders.

Maybe that skill will be good in some circumstances. That is as close to a kind word as I can get.

[KeithKSR]

Many of our allies are allies in name only. They want the American taxpayers to foot the bills for NATO, want no tariffs on their products, while placing high tariffs on products produced by Americans.

The South Koreans helped pave the way to the Trump-Kim talks and are definitely on board.

[UKHistory]

And what of the Japanese? Is it really in America's interests to not have a military presence in South Korea.

If you are going to get personal with me...

Forget it. The Western allies are our friends and sure as hell better friends than Russia or China. No relationship is perfect and Trump isn't (note: left out the most important word) looking for balance. He is the definition of the ugly American and his policies are going to isolate us and put us in a bad spot in the near future.

Trump has removed us from major international agreements, including the Iran Deal, (which is probably about as effective as the previous North Korea ones) but admits to not only being open but wants to remove US troops from the peninsula.

You want proof he is a Russian pawn? Reducing our troops in Asia and threatening not to defend Europe/NATO because the check is late from Poland are grounds for impeachment.

[UKHistory]

Many of our allies are allies in name only. They want the American taxpayers to foot the bills for NATO, want no tariffs on their products, while placing high tariffs on products produced by Americans.

The South Koreans helped pave the way to the Trump-Kim talks and are definitely on board.

Canada, England, Australia, Germany, Japan are not allies in name only. Look at the actual financial contributions. That is not to say there aren't issues.

But putting in the most money and troops also gives us a larger say in what the alliance does. That is kind of important. There is some tangible profit in that or as someone likes to say "we win bigly" because of it.

[kingcat]

Have we ever won a war without our allies? A real question and not a statement.

[Doc]

Yes cancelling war games without discussing s Korea and Japan is a bad idea.

Our troops stationed in South Korea is a trip wire. If we aren’t there with tactical nukes, North Korea could surge over the 38th parallel and occupy part of South Korea before we can respond.

Being there means North Korea has to kill Americans in sufficient. Umbers that forces a response.

If we aren’t physically in South Korea, the math changes.

I am for peace. Peace through strength. Giving up the war games could be construed as the US from retreTing from the world allowing geographically closer thugs like China and Russia to flex their muscles in Asia and Europe.

And I’d say that about any leader jumping into a summit with North Korea.

I don't know if there was any discussions with S. Korea or Japan but I have not heard any complaints from either country. Perhaps they think that cancelling the show might help lead to peace and they would prefer peace to a game.

Russia said the same about nukes in Cuba. The flight time from Japan (where we have nuclear capability) to S. Korea is 2 hours--and that is if we put them on a COMMERCIAL airline. An Air Force jet bomber is probably 3 times faster.

Our foreign policy isn't based on number of American killed. Look at our unyielding support of Israel as proof that you don't have to pack a country with Red, White and Blue to garner our support.

The math changes only if we allow it to change.

I'm for peace thru strength too. Said that all along. I'm also for doing what is best for America, and don't give a #### what Canada, Japan or anybody else thinks.

[Doc]

Chamberlain met with Hitler too. Eating with a thug doesn’t make you a leader. Bowing to their wishes makes you an appeaser. Supporting thugs over democratically elected leaders makes you an accomplice to totalitarianism.

You mean like this?

[CitizenBBN]

You can now impeach Presidents for a foreign policy you don't like ?? Who knew. It must be in some version of the Constitution of which I'm unaware, b/c my copy says the President has the power to conduct foreign affairs and pretty much only needs approval from anyone when he signs a binding treaty.

I mean, the country is going to run so much better when those who think the other guy is just pure evil can start up impeachment trials every time he does something they think is wrong. We're going to be SO MUCH better off with this mentality now running our nation. lol

History, you are so convinced Trump is outside the rules you are going to be willing to destroy our democracy over it. You don't see it, I know, you see Trump as the threat, but you are willing to impeach a President over POLICY decisions with which you disagree. Do you realize that is the real threat to democracy here?

Policy decisions btw that he ran on as a candidate, and policy decisions supported by a LOT of Americans, none of whom are in fact Russian agents. You see, you can actually want the US to stop being the world's policeman and NOT be pro-Putin. I know that's crazy, but back when the Left was calling for the "peace dividend" many on the other side were calling to bring troops home from all over the world. It doesn't make you un-American.

It may be wrong, but it's not un-American. Though I do love watching liberals be outraged at a President calling for LESS militarization, fewer troops in foreign lands, etc. It's pretty funny in an historical sense.

Trump has called for pulling out troops from all over, b/c 1) if you were the family of that person you wouldn't want them half a world away sitting as a "trip wire" for some big geopolitical game, and 2) it costs us a TON of money.

Seriously, do you think it's a shining moment for us as a nation that we all know we have American servicemen sitting there we KNOW will die at the start of a ware, and they are there precisely TO DIE so we will be forced into military action? Yes, thats the deterrent effect we are going for, but for 60 years we've had a very screwed up situation in Korea and calling for it to continue if we can end it seems pretty unreasonable.

Also, please study the history of how Koreans feel about this situation too. Many want the US troops gone, they see this as all a function of foreign powers battling for control, and they are largely correct. The only reason Korea is split is b/c of foreign influence, and they want us to all pack up and go home.

Trump didn't say they'd leave now. He called for them to leave eventually. Yet now hoping we achieve a lasting enough peace in that part of the world we no longer need massive military presence is somehow grounds for impeachment. lol.

[CitizenBBN]

Of course, we all know Jimmy Carter was also a Soviet agent:

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/01/16/a...s-uniting.html

lol. Yeah, let's impeach every President who calls for things we don't like.

[VirginiaCat]

Even without nuclear weapons, North Korea has a conventional force that can rein destruction on South Korea.

Trump appears to have unilaterally ended the joint war games we have held with our allies for decades. He openly admits he wants to bring our troops home. The meager number of troops we have is a trip wire force designed to keep North Korea at bay.

For any who have forgotten, North Korea is supported by China and bolstered by Russia to a lesser extent. Axis of evil.

Trump accosts our allies in Europe and Asia while praising foreign dictators.

This isn’t spin. This isn’t fake news. read objectively the quotes trump makes about the bad guys and what he says about the good guys.

Donald trump is not in any way acting in th best interest of the United States or its people.

Are you freaking kidding me? You do realize SK is the one pushing this the most right?

You do realize our "allies" in Europe have underfunded NATO for years upon years based on the agreement and guess who has footed the bill for that?

Conventional artillery is nothing compared to Nuclear.... and can be taken out.

Get real and get out of your hate zone.

[CitizenBBN]

Also, I love the idea that pulling NK over to the West is somehow helping Putin and Russia. The last thing they want is for Kim to make peace with the West and open up his country. Russia and China have been meeting with him to try to prevent this shift, they want NK as a thorn in our sides.

Yes, we will have to give Kim his world stage, and yes we can make him a "legitimate" leader, something he desires very much. That will be the price we pay to get him to not point nuclear missiles at us. It's a sweet deal.

[kingcat]

The president is following the bipartisan advice he received from congress back when he was engaged in rhetorical combat with NK. No one disagrees with following that advice

Alienating our allies is a separate matter and IS catering to Putin and Russia..and if it continued would be the most foolish mistake ever made by this country. You can’t justify one by the other.

We cannot stand alone and isolated as a free society no more than the Soviet’s did. It’s blindness to believe otherwise imo.
NATO protects the world from anarchy and anti democratic forces and without it we eventually fall.

Ask a WW2 vet what he thinks.

[CitizenBBN]

Last thought. It should be clear Trump said that removing troops was "not part of the equation now." I fail to see how him saying he hopes for a day we don't need 30K troops there is somehow evil or awful.

He didn't say we're doing anything with them until the situation warrants it.

he did say he'd end war games "until we see the future negotiation is not going along like it should,", which seems to be a perfectly reasonable negotiation step. It doesn't reduce our capacity or reduce the deterrent force in place. There may be a small reduction in readiness if it goes on for an extended period, but if it does it means the diplomatic process is going well for that long of a period as well, which is good.

There's nothing in his comments that, had Obama been in this role, or Hillary, would get everyone running around like the world was ending. It's only b/c it's Trump and so many are convinced in their bones that Trump is evil an a Russian and whatever else that this is even an issue.

We're going to have to give things to get things, and if we can get real verification and get Kim to pivot to the west, we will have forced a major shift in the balance of power in that region to our favor, and to the detriment of china and Russia.

They both want a nuclear Korea. We, the SK and Japan do not.

backing Kim into a corner where he has no choice but take action or lose his regime is foolhardy. Trump is giving him a way out, a way to save face, save his regime, and get his seat at the world stage with that respect, IF he will eliminate his nuclear program, which of course is a de facto pivot to the West and away from China and Russia.

There's no guarantee, and Trump has been really clear about it. We may have to walk away from this, and if we do wargames can start back and we're no worse off than when we started.

But you have to take this chance. This is a chance to settle a war that has been officially going on for 70+ years. It's costing us nothing to try, so you try.

The only risk is we give away something and get nothing back, and Trump doesn't seem like he'll do that.

[CitizenBBN]

The president is following the bipartisan advice he received from congress back when he was engaged in rhetorical combat with NK. No one disagrees with following that advice

Alienating our allies is a separate matter and IS catering to Putin and Russia..and if it continued would be the most foolish mistake ever made by this country. We cannot stand alone and isolated as a free society no more than the Soviet’s did. It’s blindness to believe otherwise imo.
NATO protects the world from anarchy and anti democratic forces and without it we eventually fall.

Ask a WW2 vet what he thinks.

Do you think our alliances in the West are so fragile they can't withstand some tough talk about what many think are unfair trade agreements, or an unfair military budget burden?

The TRUTH, the hard and fast truth, is that NATO has specified minimums for military investment which many of our allies have not met in years if not decades, while the US made up the difference. Do you accept that as fact?

It's also true and well reported that both Bush II and Obama, two Presidents from near opposite sides of the political spectrum, BOTH privately pushed those same allies on this issue.

The only difference is that Trump called them out publicly. Zero shift in the American position, and even zero shift in our spending. The only difference is Trump shame them publicly where other US PResidents let them get away with decades of not meeting their agree contractual obligations.

that's not us letting our allies down. That's our allies letting us down. Trump just has the guts to point it out.

And if it offends Germany or France that we are tired of them getting away with them not being the ally they promised, in writing, to be, then so be it. I'm offended we're paying for their security more than we agreed, so maybe they need to take a turn.

NATO won't dissolve over it, and Canada won't invade Michigan over it. we've had harsh words with Canada many many times in the past, this is not the first time.

Yes Trump is gruff and rude and personal and nothing like a polished politician. He's as likely to call out Canada as Cuba. All that is true.

What is not true is that it will do some irreparable damage that will mean the US will have no allies, etc.

Obama's treatment of Israel was far more questionable than anything Trump has done, and here we are 1 year later and Israel is an old friend again. We've fought two wars with Great Britain, arguably our closest ally, and we have invaded Canada at least 3 times.

This is nothing, just negotiation and positioning. Two months ago the Canadian PM was bragging about his great relationship with Trump, and in 6 months it's likely to change again.

I don't like a lot of what Trump does, but I just don't get the dire reactions as if what he does will end our nation. I liked even less of what Obama did and said, and I knew that wouldn't be the end either. I knew it would put us on a path that is the wrong one, but end the nation or our alliances or democracy? Uh, no.

Heck, it never even occured to me we'd lose Israel as an ally due to Obama, despite him treating them horribly, up to and including funding internal political operations.

Our allies are very cushy with the US taking care of everything. I'm OK with them not being so happy with us. I don't agree with a thing Merkel wants in this world, so if she's unhappy with US policy that's probably a good thing for the US. doesn't mean we won't still be allies.

[UKHistory]

We can agree to disagree and all I can ask is folks to take me at my word when I say that if any president had behaved as trump did regarding our allies and our enemies, I’d be concerned.

If you think I am delusional or filled with hate that blinds me to trump welll, I can’t change your mind.

I might be a little sad if I lose a friend or a friends respect, but I will stand by my convictions that Trump and his policies are not in the best interests of the country.

If he leaves office willingly and we are still here, I will come back to this forum or where you guys are and say I am wrong.

Gladly.

I am not Terry and I am not trolling you with snide comments or being political where in the middle of a sports talk (unless it is specifically said as a joke).

I see trump as a clear and sincere danger to our nation.

You can mock my views. I will stand by them until proven wrong.

[VirginiaCat]

This is not about Trade Agreements. This is about world view. Both of current American major parties leadership AND all the Western Republics are lead by Internationalist viewpoints, not Nationalist viewpoints.

Trump, like many rising individuals throughtout Europe, are more nationalist.

The Trade agreements are great for a broader region but hurt many indivudial countries..the US included. Especailly some of our workers. Personally, I am fine as long as it is a level playing field..but it is not nor has it been for many years. Time to change that.

[VirginiaCat]

If he leaves office willingly and we are still here, I will come back to this forum or where you guys are and say I am wrong. .

What are you saying here? Do you honestly believe Trump and his admin will try to stay in power past 2 terms?

Can you point to 1 thing he has said that gives you this belief?

[UKHistory]

What are you saying here? Do you honestly believe Trump and his admin will try to stay in power past 2 terms?

Can you point to 1 thing he has said that gives you this belief?

VaCat: I am done with this conversation. I stand by what I wrote. You want to talk me about Trump, send me a private message and if you want to meet in person, I am glad to discuss it.

All the best.

[CitizenBBN]

History, you certainly won't lose friends here over your views. And I hope you don't think I am mocking your views.

As I said, I do not understand them b/c while I see Trump as an over the top ass, I don't see what he's done that makes him a real threat.

But I'm confident he won't end democracy, but that he will say about 5,000 more inane or over the top or just plain dumb things while he's in office, and in the end we'll put him in the history books just like we did Obama (who was a communist muslim) and Bush II (who was a war mongering fascist), etc.

I hope you don't give up on discussing him from time to time. While I can't see what you see, I am trying to figure it out and I do want to hear your views as this moves forward.

[UKHistory]

Love you to death Citizen. Always will.

[Catonahottinroof]

This is another subject where the political sunglasses need to come off....

[UKHistory]

I don't know if there was any discussions with S. Korea or Japan but I have not heard any complaints from either country. Perhaps they think that cancelling the show might help lead to peace and they would prefer peace to a game.

Russia said the same about nukes in Cuba. The flight time from Japan (where we have nuclear capability) to S. Korea is 2 hours--and that is if we put them on a COMMERCIAL airline. An Air Force jet bomber is probably 3 times faster.

Our foreign policy isn't based on number of American killed. Look at our unyielding support of Israel as proof that you don't have to pack a country with Red, White and Blue to garner our support.

The math changes only if we allow it to change.

I'm for peace thru strength too. Said that all along. I'm also for doing what is best for America, and don't give a #### what Canada, Japan or anybody else thinks.

Trying extricate myself from this tragedy c conversation but so you know. Japan and South Korea were not consulted. None of trumps people were either. They aren’t real happy but like children riding in a car with drunk father, they can’t say too much

[UKHistory]

You mean like this?

Doc the more appropriate video would have been where Obama tells Putin to wait until after the election. Or maybe don Rumsfeld with Sadam.

Saudi’s Arabia while a horrible dictatorship is our horrible dictatorship thanks to their vast quantities of oil.

North Korea a communist satellite is our enemy and even worse than Saudi’s.

US foreign policy has grossly underestimated Russia and China since the 1990s. A lot of presidents have made poor decisions. This one is an unamerican walking abortion of ineptitude. Total backbirth.

Doc you and others have been quick to reference Obama or Hillary whenever I raise a concern about trump.

Maybe to compare this jackass with someone else. I’d think you would want to compare trump to someone you like.

If you bring up Obama’s to say “your guy did the same thing...”

He ain’t my guy. Obama was an arrogant inexperienced fucking jerk.

He was horrible that is why we got this worthless fucking guy.

God bless you all and help this country. I am gone. You can find me doing my best Charleston Heston impression at the end of planet of the apes

**** this

[VirginiaCat]

Understood. And Someday I hope I can buy you an adult beverage and have a great conversation

[VirginiaCat]

Do I think Trump is an ass. Yes I do however think he’s very effective at what this country needs right now from a standpoint of leadership in the world. For too long we have taken a backseat and been afraid to play the cards we have been dealt. Time to stand up for the American citizen and not the world