Pleased Mueller was honest about Russian involvement

[CitizenBBN]

As the indictment points out:

1) No American so far was witting in any action. There may have been unknowing associations, but they didn't find that any American was "colluding" or cooperating in this scheme.

2) Russian interference clearly wasn't to "elect Trump", he wasn't their stooge or puppet, rather it was exactly what the Russians have done for decades, which is to sow dissension and mistrust in our system.

yes they ran things to support Trump, but they also ran things to support Sanders, and once Trump won they funded anti-trump rallies.

What the Russians wanted, and what they GOT thanks to our political divisiveness, was to sow mistrust and doubt and internal naval gazing to make us less able to act internationally.

This process started in 2014 before Trump even announced. They coordinated pro Trump AND anti Trump rallies, supported Bernie Sanders, etc.

This was just global trolling to make us less able to be united, and had nothing to do with Trump specifically. They'd have done the same thing if Bush had won the nomination, and in fact were doing it before Trump was even in the field.

When we buy into these wild conspiracy theories we're only helping the enemy, and IMO the DNC and the media have been willing and useful proxies for the Russian scheme. Any communication or "collusion" seems to be unwitting and certainly not some years long scheme to install a Russian puppet in the White House.

I'm sorry, b/c I know some here believe that, but it's just propaganda used by the DNC b/c they simply cannot accept they lost to this a-hole in an election. They thought they were a shoe in when Trump got the nomination and just can't accept that Clinton ran a bad campaign and was an even less appealing candidate than Trump.

The overall Russian spending seems to have been tiny compared to the billion dollars Hillary and and the hundreds of millions by Trump. We're talking about some tweets and a handful of rallies (both pro and anti). It isn't what determined the election.

Yes we should be mad the Russians are doing what they are doing, but it doesn't undermine the legitimacy of this election or Presidency, and THAT is what they wanted, to undermine the process.

The way to keep them from winning is to respect the election and the electorate and their decisions, the same thing Hillary demanded we do right up until the day she lost.

There was no "treason", other than the Clinton machine acting in every way possible to undermine the legitimacy of an American election. B/c they just can't accept they lost, examine why, learn from it and start working on the next election.

[badrose]

Excellent post.

[Catonahottinroof]

Instead of indicting a ham sandwich, he's indicted a bowl of Russian Borscht which will not be extradited back to the US....

[CitizenBBN]

Instead of indicting a ham sandwich, he's indicted a bowl of Russian Borscht which will not be extradited back to the US....

lol.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure he's not done. No way its coincidence he hired a staff of Clinton donors and has focused so hard on Trump people but not on people like Podesta, etc. who also have extensive question marks about Russian influence.

he's going to use this not to argue collusion but some kind of obstruction IMO. Which is to say he's going to have to argue that the crime was covering up the lack of any crime.

Hes' not done, but what this shows is the truth that the Russians aren't installing Trump as some kind of proxy, but rather that the Russians are trying to sow exactly the kind of suspicion and discord we are seeing over this issue. This was a huge win for them b/c they have so many convinced that Trump is their proxy.

They'd have done the same thing no matter who was running. They'd have reached out to the Bush people promising dirt just like how they reached out to the Clinton people through Steele and members of Congress.

Mueller won't be done. He's making huge piles of money and there's no way he built such a partisan staff just to indict some Russians, but if you look at the pattern of Russian action it paints a very different picture from the idea that Putin is pulling Trump's strings. This was just typical Russian propaganda and meddling, not so much about who won but about dividing us so no matter who won they couldn't act.

[jazyd]

Obama did what he could to undermine the Israeli election but somehow that was ok

Russia had already gotten what they wanted from Obama and Hillary, did not need her any longer

[CitizenBBN]

Obama did what he could to undermine the Israeli election but somehow that was ok

Russia had already gotten what they wanted from Obama and Hillary, did not need her any longer

I do wonder if Israel will have the cojones to now indict Obama for meddling in their election.

we absolutely did, and we do all over the world, even with allies. Yet when someone does it to us on what is really a very small scale, that's an attack worthy of a new cold war.

I get it, I think we need to respond so no one messes with the USA, but Obama knew about this since 2014 and did little to nothing about it.

But we meddled in the election of an ally, spending money to fund a group opposed to their current Prime Minister. Does Israel now indict the US aid groups responsible?

[jazyd]

I do wonder if Israel will have the cojones to now indict Obama for meddling in their election.

we absolutely did, and we do all over the world, even with allies. Yet when someone does it to us on what is really a very small scale, that's an attack worthy of a new cold war.

I get it, I think we need to respond so no one messes with the USA, but Obama knew about this since 2014 and did little to nothing about it.

But we meddled in the election of an ally, spending money to fund a group opposed to their current Prime Minister. Does Israel now indict the US aid groups responsible?

I can only hope they do, it would be sweet

[CitizenBBN]

I can only hope they do, it would be sweet

They wont' but I wish they would. Not b/c of my issues with Obama, which are many, but b/c of the hypocrisy of our government thinking it's OK to do that even with our allies but now acting like we were "attacked" by Russia doing it to us.

Obama also poked his hand into the Brexit vote, and other things, and honestly other nations do it too. We hear comments from our allies about our actions and our politics from time to time, is that meddling?

We need to respond to Russia just to make sure we send the right message, but some facebook and twitter bots and funding a handful of rallies is hardly undermining our election.

George Soros is a foreign born billionaire who pumps FAR more money into American politics. When Putin does it it's an act of war but if Soros funds all those rallies and such it's all OK?

our nation is besieged by foreign influences. do we think John Podesta's brother gets paid to lobby for Russian banks and it has nothing to do with his obvious political ties? The millions poured into lobbying, the tens of millions, comes from all over the world.

I'm all for cleaning that up, ending it, but acting like Russia is doing something insanely out of the Washington DC norm is naive. Hard to get too bent about it being somehow "out of bounds" when we do it and even our allies are out there spending millions on our elected officials to get policy influenced is duplicitous IMO.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW if there is one thing we should learn from all this mess it's just how much foreign money is pouring into our nation's politics. Soros, dozens upon dozens of nations, etc.

OK, people here have to register as a "foreign agent" if they get paid to lobby, but why should that make us feel better? OK, so they fill out a form, it doesn't keep them from lobbying.

We're overrun with this stuff. If we can indict these Russians for fake news and foreign influence of our government, we're going to need a bigger jail for all the people we indict.

[Catonahottinroof]

You nailed it, foreign money that finds its way into our elections.

[CitizenBBN]

You nailed it, foreign money that finds its way into our elections.

We're rife with it apparently. Mueller is just part of the swamp, and he'll feed the public this minor stuff about some facebook bots and "fake news" and politically certain groups will eat it up and act like it's the end of the world.

What that will do is provide cover for the REAL corruption where thousands upon thousands of lobbyists and friends and consultants in DC are on foreign payrolls and are doing their bidding. Guys like Flynn are small potatoes, and are drops in the ocean, and it's on both sides of the aisle.

This is just another political snowjob.

[MickintheHam]

Watched the Smithsonian channel program marking the 50th Anniverary of the Day Kennedy was killed last night. It was produced 5 years ago, before Russian Involvement in our elections was on every news broadcast. While there are many assination theories out there, most all agree the Soviets (Russians) were involved. It now appears Russian involvement was never an issue at the Department ofJustice or CIA until Donald Trump was elected. Russian meddling has been going on at least 60 years.

[UKHistory]

I need to reviewv the indictment before making any comments. With regards to the Soviets or the Cubans, as a Russian proxy, killing Kennedy, there are theories point g that direction

I think the Cubans killed him myself. Did we want to blow up the world for a repeat of the arch Duke Ferdinand getting killed.

I am guessing we knew but didn’t want WWIII—just my own opinion.

[CitizenBBN]

History, it's not over. This is just phase one no doubt.

But it goes to how the Russians really operate. It's not a big overarching Machiavellian plot. Those don't work b/c government just isn't that organized, no one is that organized. Too many leaks, loose threads, etc.

I have no doubt they've meddled, and have done so for a long time. Some of the claims of Communist stuff in the 50s was true (much wasn't), and I have no doubt it's continued.

But it's to sow dissension and cause us to be divided, and honestly as a percentage of how well we divide ourselves i really doubt they are getting their money's worth. seriously,, what could they have done that would make us more divided? They supported Sanders, but without that does he do anything different?

They supported trump, but so did MSNBC. They loved him early b/c the left WANTED Trump to get the nomination. he got huge and generally warm coverage b/c they thought he would make Hillary a shoe-in to win. What is all of that coverage compared to some facebook bots from the Russians?

It's just a little sliver of the riff that has formed in this nation, and I really don't know why they waste their time. It's not like without them this would all heal over, and it's not like we'll paddle down this river any faster b/c of them.

Seriously, what's their point? If they did absolutely nothing, nothing would change.

This nation has a fundamental problem of ideology, and the Russians can't really do anything about it good or bad. Social Justice cannot be reconciled with individual liberty. In the end one will win out.

[MickintheHam]

History, it's not over. This is just phase one no doubt.

But it goes to how the Russians really operate. It's not a big overarching Machiavellian plot. Those don't work b/c government just isn't that organized, no one is that organized. Too many leaks, loose threads, etc.

I have no doubt they've meddled, and have done so for a long time. Some of the claims of Communist stuff in the 50s was true (much wasn't), and I have no doubt it's continued.

But it's to sow dissension and cause us to be divided, and honestly as a percentage of how well we divide ourselves i really doubt they are getting their money's worth. seriously,, what could they have done that would make us more divided? They supported Sanders, but without that does he do anything different?

They supported trump, but so did MSNBC. They loved him early b/c the left WANTED Trump to get the nomination. he got huge and generally warm coverage b/c they thought he would make Hillary a shoe-in to win. What is all of that coverage compared to some facebook bots from the Russians?

It's just a little sliver of the riff that has formed in this nation, and I really don't know why they waste their time. It's not like without them this would all heal over, and it's not like we'll paddle down this river any faster b/c of them.

Seriously, what's their point? If they did absolutely nothing, nothing would change.

This nation has a fundamental problem of ideology, and the Russians can't really do anything about it good or bad. Social Justice cannot be reconciled with individual liberty. In the end one will win out.

Oh, I agree. Russian involvement hasn't been an issue for 60 years. It shouldn't be now. The only thing that's changed is a guy was elected who the Eastern Establishment seriously hates.

[Catonahottinroof]

What I find funny in all the political hate going on is Trump was likely a Dem for the majority of his adult life, at least based on who he donated political cash to.
He’s hated because he can’t be controlled. The next best thing is to link him to scandal.

[CitizenBBN]

Facebook is reporting that only about $40K was spent on there by the Russians. Special Council reports were about $1.2 mil for all of it.

It's not acceptable, but it's hardly enough to say that swayed an election.

In the end, that's what this is about. The folks who lost this election just can't accept that there really are that many Americans out there who disagree with them so much. They though they were the vast majority and there was just this small group of "deplorables" out there that they needed to finish off.

They had no idea it was half the country, esp. that it was people in Ohio and Pennsylvania, etc.

IMO they just can't accept it. Not just losing, that's bad, but that they aren't a vast majority. the idea that so many Americans so fundamentally disagree with them must be shocking when their belief system is based on the idea that they are so absolutely right and anyone who disagrees is a racist, sexist, homophobe.

That means in their view that half this country is full of such people. No wonder they're so angry.

And it ties to their idea that it's Trump being so "divisive", playing to the worst inpeople. It can't be that we just disagree with them, we must be doing what we're doing b/c we're tolerating or otherwise being fear mongered into our racism. It just can't be that that a different view on immigration or whatever isn't racist to half the country.

B/c if this wasn't Russia, some exogenous force that stole the election, then they have some serious erosion of their bedrock belief system, esp. that everyone basically agrees with them and those few who don't are all just redneck racists. If more women and minorities really voted for Trump than Romney b/c they AGREE with Trump in some way, that's a real problem for them.

[Catonahottinroof]

I’m no fan of Trump. With that said he is being sabotaged by most the on the left, and a few on the right. Nothing in this situation is good for either party....

[KeithKSR]

Facebook said most of the fake news stuff by the Russians ran after the election, which isn't being reported much at all. They funded Inauguration Day pro and anti-Trump rallies. Looks like the goal was to stimulate division and not endorse any candidate, which is also why they ran Sanders and Trump stuff during the primaries, they were the outsiders.

[CitizenBBN]

Good article on what the Russian bots are doing. Right now they are engaging on both sides of the gun control debate:

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2018/02/...perts-say.html

This is a good summary of what they do:

It reportedly used doctored videos to spread false reports about a supposed Islamic State attack on a chemical plant in Louisiana and a purported case of Ebola in the state of Georgia. Seeking to sow division and mistrust ahead of the U.S. election, the agency apparently whipped up a fake video of an African-American woman being shot dead by a white police officer in Atlanta.

The point is clear: they aren't really taking sides, and they aren't part of some grand scheme. They are just trying to sow as much division between us as possible, esp. by using fake information to rile up BOTH sides.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, and Mueller has showed his hand. He can't find collusion with the Russians so now he's going after conflicts of interest with those around Trump. Which is fine except he's only going after them, and not all the conflicts around EVERYONE and their BROTHER in Washington. Do that and I'll accept this is an attempt at justice. Otherwise it's still 20+ lawyers with obvious political ties and agendas and a history of prosecutorial excess going after someone they don't want in charge.

[CitizenBBN]

And re misconduct, the new judge in the Flynn case just ruled that Mueller has to turn over all exculpatory evidence re Flynn to his lawyers. That's a powerful thing, and appears pretty unusual even tough I'm not a criminal lawyer.

He may be questioning the plea deal b/c it's come to light that Comey himself said Flynn didn't "lie", but just made a mistake in his reporting. If Mueller knew the head of the FBI felt it wasn't lying to the FBI, and maybe failed to mention that to Flynn, and maybe Flynn wasn't even told he was subject of an investigation when he talked to the FBI and thus didn't have his lawyers present, then maybe the judge is starting to smell misconduct.

[Catonahottinroof]

That’s just the start of it. At the end of all this the FISA warrants are going to be pitched due to faulty evidence.

And re misconduct, the new judge in the Flynn case just ruled that Mueller has to turn over all exculpatory evidence re Flynn to his lawyers. That's a powerful thing, and appears pretty unusual even tough I'm not a criminal lawyer.

He may be questioning the plea deal b/c it's come to light that Comey himself said Flynn didn't "lie", but just made a mistake in his reporting. If Mueller knew the head of the FBI felt it wasn't lying to the FBI, and maybe failed to mention that to Flynn, and maybe Flynn wasn't even told he was subject of an investigation when he talked to the FBI and thus didn't have his lawyers present, then maybe the judge is starting to smell misconduct.

[CitizenBBN]

The deal with Flynn has been dirty from the start. Mueller has tried to squeeze him financially and there are reports he threatened to go after Flynn's son to try to get that plea.

that fits with the main guy he brought in who has had numerous cases overturned due to misconduct and clear overreach.

[CitizenBBN]

That’s just the start of it. At the end of all this the FISA warrants are going to be pitched due to faulty evidence.

It's interesting the letter the FISA court issued in response to the request for documents, basically saying the DOJ has them and should hand them over. Interesting the DOJ hasn't provided them to the Congressional committees directly assigned with their oversight.

That application is sitting at DOJ. Seems a pretty easy manner to find out what they gave to the court and what they didn't tell them.

[Doc]

The deal with Flynn has been dirty from the start. Mueller has tried to squeeze him financially and there are reports he threatened to go after Flynn's son to try to get that plea.

that fits with the main guy he brought in who has had numerous cases overturned due to misconduct and clear overreach.

What is bothersome to me about the Flynn deal is they got him for lying to the Feds, and even some within the FBI doubt he lied. Meanwhile Hilary and her posse systematically lied and yet nobody batted an eye. If Flynn lied so be it, suffer the consequences but enough with the selectiveness of the laws. They apply to ALL.

As for the whole Russia thing
1) its nothing new, they have been doing it for decades
2) its nothing unique. The US meddles in foreign elections as well
3) its only an issue because the left can't grasp that they lost.
4) if it was such an issue, we knew about it before the election and the previous administration could have addressed but they felt Hilary was such a sure thing to win they elected to ignore it.

[CitizenBBN]

Doc, you nailed the source of this stuff. The Left simply cannot accept that half the country disagrees with them so fundamentally they'd rather vote for Trump. They can't accept it, so they invent reasons why it can't be true that people just disagree with them.

It must be Russian influence on social media that swayed the vote, or some vast conspiracy. Of course the only conspiracy was releasing the TRUTH of DNC and Clinton campaign thoughts and actions but that doesn't get mentioned a lot.

They really thought, and insist on thinking, that the only people who agree with them are just not understanding, or are too dumb or are racist, sexist homophobes and thus "deplorables". It's just not possible that educated, reasonable people can be non-racist and non-deplorable and come to a radically different conclusion than them on policy.

So they cling to the Russians or Trump being "divisive" etc. as the reason for it. The truth is Trump isn't divisive, he just highlights the divisions and tapped into them, but they were already there.

[Doc]

IMO the most divisive president in my times is Obama. I don't ever recall a president telling an entire party to basically shut up as he did when he told them he was driving the bus and republicans should just agree because "elections have consequences" etc...

Trump is only divisive because the left is effectively labeling him as such. Wanting border security isn't racist or anti-hispanic. Wanting to fully vet people coming to this country from countries ripe with terrorism isn't anti-muslim. Creating jobs for all people isn't anti minority. Cutting taxes to those who pay them isn't pro wealthy (are you going to cut taxes on those who don't pay taxes??--- only to a liberal can that be logical). Calling Rosie O'Donnell a fat pig isn't anti-women (look at her)...its antiliberal.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm the first to agree that Trump is personally abrasive, insulting, and I get why anyone would be repulsed by him. he's the billiionaire version of white trash in many ways. lol.

But his views and policy goals are not "divisive", they are simply reflecting the views of a part of the country that lacked a voice under Obama. You don't have to agree with them, but Trump is just the messenger, not the creator of those views.

The divisiveness is inherent to our current landscape, and isn't being falsely created by someone from the top. It's organic and grassroots.

What upsets the left is that group is vastly larger than they thought. Large enough to win a Presidential election. They don't want to face that fact, so it must be something else to blame.

And in truth there is another factor, but it's another one they dont want to face: they ran a lousy and unappealing candidate. Hillary is basically as unlikable as Trump, albeit in different ways. They both had huge negatives in the polling for their persona, and Hillary was actually seen as less trustworthy, which is impressive given Trump's over the top statements.

It's been funny to watch Hillary go around undermining the legitimacy of the election when she showed such deep outrage at Trump not agreeing to abide by the results and go away if he lost.

[badrose]

By Bill Wilson

I do not understand how living in a country with its democracy established over 200 years ago, and now, for the first time in history, suddenly we have one of our former presidents set up a group called "Organizing for Action" (OFA).
OFA is 30,000+ strong and working to disrupt everything that our current president’s administration is trying to do. This organization goes against our Democracy, and it is an operation that will destroy our way of governing. It goes against our Constitution, our laws, and the processes established over 200 years ago. If it is allowed to proceed then we will be living in chaos very much like third world countries are run. What good is it to have an established government if it is not going to be respected and allowed to follow our laws?

If you had an army some 30,000 strong and a court system stacked over the decades with judges who would allow you to break the laws, how much damage could you do to a country? We are about to find out in America!

Our ex-president said he was going to stay involved through community organizing and speak out on the issues and that appears to be one post-administration promise he intends to keep. He has moved many of his administration's top dogs over to Organizing for Action.

OFA is behind the strategic and tactical implementation of the resistance to the Trump Administration that we are seeing across America, and politically active courts are providing the leverage for this revolution.

OFA is dedicated to organizing communities for "progressive" change. Its issues are gun control, socialist healthcare, abortion, sexual equality, climate change, and of course, immigration reform.

OFA members were propped up by the ex-president's message from the shadows: "Organizing is the building block of everything great we have accomplished Organizers around the country are fighting for change in their communities and OFA is one of the groups on the front lines. Commit to this work in 2017 and beyond."

OFA's website says it obtained its "digital" assets from the ex-president's re-election effort and that he inspired the movement. In short, it is the shadow government organization aimed at resisting and tearing down the Constitutional Republic we know as AMERICA.

Paul Sperry, writing for the New York Post, says, “The OFA will fight President Donald Trump at every turn of his presidency and the ex-president will command them from a bunker less than two miles from the White House."

Sperry writes that, “The ex-president is setting up a shadow government to sabotage the Trump administration through a network of non-profits led by OFA, which is growing its war chest (more than $40 million) and has some 250 offices nationwide. The OFA IRS filings, according to Sperry, indicate that the OFA has 32,525 (and growing) volunteers nationwide. The ex-president and his wife will oversee the operation from their home/ office in Washington DC.

Think about how this works.. For example: Trump issues an immigration executive order; the OFA signals for protests and statements from pro-immigrant groups; the ACLU lawyers file lawsuits in jurisdictions where activist judges obstruct the laws; volunteers are called to protest at airports and Congressional town hall meetings; the leftist media springs to action in support of these activities; the twitter sphere lights up with social media; and violence follows. All of this happens from the ex-president's signal that he is heartened by the protests.

If Barack Obama did not do enough to destroy this country in the 8 years he was in office, it appears his future plans are to destroy the foundation on which this country has operated on for the last 241 years.

If this does not scare you, then we are in worse trouble than you know.

So, do your part. You have read it, so at least pass this on so others will know what we are up against. We are losing our country and we are so compliant. We are becoming a "PERFECT TARGET" for our enemy!