I'm surprised we don't have a thread on the Anthem kneel

[Doc]

We have some that reference it but none addressing it in particular so I thought I get one started based on a couple issues that occurred this weekend and flowed over to yesterday.

First we had Mike Pence show up to the Indy game then leave when the players knelt for the National Anthem. Sarah Spain, among others listed this as a "publicity stunt". I found this both odd and humorous. The players kneeling is to "start a conversation", one that has been started and going on for quite some time and is now nothing more than a stunt IMO yet when a statement is made in opposition its labelled a publicity stunt. So one sides act of defiance is a show of solidarity while the others side is a stunt.

Jerry Jones, an individual who is as two faces as they come, does his best Sybil impression by standing in solidarity with the players 2 weeks ago but now claim that players who don't stand will be benched. Hey, I'm fine with that but wish he had taken that stance from day one instead of bowing to what he thought was pressure until he realized he was on the wrong side of what most Americans feel. Of course many in the media criticized him, including Sarah Spain, for squelching the players First Amendment. Has the media even read or understand the 1st Amendment?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The first word is CONGRESS. Jerry Jones isn't part of Congress, nor is the Dallas Cowboys or the NFL. At least Frank Isola called her out on her ignorance. What an employer requires of their employees is not relevant to the first amendment. The Constitution makes no guarantee to allow you to make any expression on your employers time or platform. Why do people not understand this basic concept?

Third, in case you missed it, our favorite race baiting ESPN anchor...Jemele Hill was suspended 2 weeks for calling for a boycott of advertiser of the Dallas Cowboys due to Jones stance. I guess she forgot that many of those sponsors also support ESPN. Of course the good Rev Sharpton is coming to the rescue, staging a rally in Bristol.... and Rosie O'Donnell is with her. GREAT!!! To bad America isn't.


This whole thing started because Colin Kapernick wanted to start a conversation. He achieved that. Good for him. It happened a year ago. That conversation has been ongoing for a year. Of course what exactly is a conversation? You tell me what you think, then tell me I'm wrong if I believe different and am a racist for thinking such? You label all cops bad and racist based on the actions of a few but if the right does the same to any group they are racist or (blank)-aphobes. Should our president have called out the NFL players as SOBs? Absolutely not. Personally I feel he did it as a private citizen but that is irrelevant. It was inflammatory and like so often he would have been better advised to keep his mouth shut. But its a lot less inflammatory than wearing Pig Sock, something Kapernick has done. In my book that is inexcusable. As a parent who's child is in law enforcement, this is akin to me wearing a shirt that has the "Nigger" scrolled across the front.

Personally I don't care if you kneel during the Anthem. In my book its disrespectful but that's your right. What I do find offensive is when you ask other to do the same. As an example, what Pittsburgh Alejandro Villanueva was made to feel like he threw his team under the bus... are you kidding me? His team required him to compromise his personal beliefs, as a veteran, somebody who was willing to put their life on the line. Sorry but that's wrong. IMO the team should not have thrown HIM under the bus and asked him to do something against his judgement. "I made my teammates look bad" was his quote. Really? No, your teammates made your teammates look bad. The ONLY person who didn't look bad was him.

[KSRBEvans]

I haven't said anything about it because it's difficult to quantify how little I care about the topic. Everybody on every side is posturing and I think it's a joke.

[kingcat]

I haven't said anything about it because it's difficult to quantify how little I care about the topic. Everybody on every side is posturing and I think it's a joke.

Amen

[Catonahottinroof]

I watch sports to get away from political ridiculousness.
To alter Toby Keith's quote, Shut up and play...

[badrose]

I think if all this was an effort to raise the awareness of police brutality they could have found better ways to do it. I've seen nothing to that effect. Intended or not, it does smack of disrespect. People who pay to watch and those who watch on TV do not want to see it.

[CitizenBBN]

I think if all this was an effort to raise the awareness of police brutality they could have found better ways to do it. I've seen nothing to that effect. Intended or not, it does smack of disrespect. People who pay to watch and those who watch on TV do not want to see it.

This. Trying to highlight a problem through a protest that is deeply divisive is at best high risk, at worst it's guaranteed to only divide and not address the issue.

IN this case the protest IMO had little to do with the real problem, if you study Kaepernick's history you'll find his motives were very new-found, and now his offer to stop protesting the anthem if someone will pay him millions of dollars highlights the truth.

BUt even if we accept the motives, the action is one that is clearly divisive and insulting to millions of people who are not the enemy of their cause. that's a pretty poorly designed protest, one that is guaranteed to not convert anyone.

As an employer, I also find it silly and intelllectually insulting to think that there is some constitutional right to express oneself while on the job, wearing the employer's uniform. If they want to protest fine, that's their right, but they have no right to do it on the job.

The NFL created this mess by not nipping it in the bud, and they let themselves become the epicenter of this stuff.

[UKHistory]

This. Trying to highlight a problem through a protest that is deeply divisive is at best high risk, at worst it's guaranteed to only divide and not address the issue.

IN this case the protest IMO had little to do with the real problem, if you study Kaepernick's history you'll find his motives were very new-found, and now his offer to stop protesting the anthem if someone will pay him millions of dollars highlights the truth.

BUt even if we accept the motives, the action is one that is clearly divisive and insulting to millions of people who are not the enemy of their cause. that's a pretty poorly designed protest, one that is guaranteed to not convert anyone.

As an employer, I also find it silly and intelllectually insulting to think that there is some constitutional right to express oneself while on the job, wearing the employer's uniform. If they want to protest fine, that's their right, but they have no right to do it on the job.

The NFL created this mess by not nipping it in the bud, and they let themselves become the epicenter of this stuff.

I agree with this. I have concerns of police brutality and places like the dept of ED having swat team.

Those are threats to our democracy. Protesting the national anthem or during it, is counter productive.

The players are visible but are effectively rais8ng the issue.

I love this country. Not what we were or are but what we aspire to be. What we as a nation have always strived to be.

We aren’t perfect and never were but still we created a standard for the world and ourselves to reach for.

Th Idea of America is sacred and that should be celebrated by all.

[kingcat]

I agree with this. I have concerns of police brutality and places like the dept of ED having swat team.

Those are threats to our democracy. Protesting the national anthem or during it, is counter productive.

The players are visible but are effectively rais8ng the issue.

I love this country. Not what we were or are but what we aspire to be. What we as a nation have always strived to be.

We aren’t perfect and never were but still we created a standard for the world and ourselves to reach for.

Th Idea of America is sacred and that should be celebrated by all.

As a Christian I believe the idea of America is the most noble of ideas and I love my country. There is none better. And I agree that, though we have fought wars to guarantee the right to do so, taking a knee is counter productive to an extent. It doesn't move me either way as long as they don't turn their backs on it.

But I cant agree with the flag or American ideas as being sacred. It is a point of pride in a great nation that seeks to do things right and entreat with fairness all of mankind.

But one day God will replace this system and all others. And has commanded us to claim our citizenship in his Kingdom and be as pilgrims in a strange land on this earth. So I must stop short of calling the country I love and call home "sacred"

That doesn't diminish my patriotism in the least and I understand many do not agree with me, but that's fine.
I just think its important that a nation under God, accept His precepts as truth and take both knees with head bowed in reverence to him..yes even old Uncle Sam will kneel and hand over all power and authority on this earth one day.

This is a temporary system, but a good one it is for the present. As it assures I have the freedom to Worship God, and God alone with no one to tell me otherwise. In the present day, I must allow things contrary to my own feelings and beliefs to assure my own are protected.
That's what makes this country great.

I cant fairly judge the hearts of those who peacefully protest, nor the depth of emotion that motivates each individual to do so.

I can be proud that such a right still exists.

[Doc]

If Kapernicks point was to raise awareness, he did. He did it initially but then he elected to play the marytr and continue where it was no longer a means of sparking awareness but rather an attention grabbing protest or stunt, and as others pointed out had little or nothing to do with the subject. Additionally it had the purpose of being offensive to a large segment which is actually counter productive to the initial problem. Of course the issue had nearly died until Trump reviced it for some unknown reason. As for Kapernicks reversal, its long overdue. He should have stopped at week 2 or 3 and he would have had the same effect on his original topic, and he might still have a job as a 3rd string backup.

[kingcat]

History, mine wasn’t meant as an argument just an opportunity to show a different viewpoint on patriotism. Perhaps I could have presented it better in hindsight

[UKHistory]

History, mine wasn’t meant as an argument just an opportunity to show a different viewpoint on patriotism. Perhaps I could have presented it better in hindsight

Kingcat, you are good. If I was placing love of country on equal footing with God (or being perceived that way) that is wrong on my part.

I do see the Constitution and the Declaration as sacred but not as sacred as the Bible.

Your words are moving.

[Doc]

I don't equate standing for the flag as anything more than showing respect for something. If I was in a foreign country, I'd stand for their anthem as a sign of respect regardless of their policies. I show respect for people I strongly disagree with. As an example, I wouldn't shout down Barrach Obama while he was giving a speech even thought I strongly disagree with him, out of respect for him and the people who do support him. But we live in where the act of showing respect is a far less common courtesy.

[badrose]

Kingcat, you are good. If I was placing love of country on equal footing with God (or being perceived that way) that is wrong on my part.

I do see the Constitution and the Declaration as sacred but not as sacred as the Bible.

Your words are moving.

I've always felt that if God had written a format for governments it would be similar to our constitution. Paul put it this way:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

[badrose]

Here's a commentary on Paul's words above:

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-...u-romans-131-7

[kingcat]

Good scriptures, and coming from a citizen of Rome. Makes one wonder if it right to seek regime change around the world or not show equal respect to all the leaders God has placed in power.
Then again this country may have been founded on such a rebellion. Going to war against unfair taxation similar to what Julius Caesar placed upon the people of that day.

And even though Pauls words are directly to Christians under Roman rule, Rome was an expansionist government committed to conquering and subjugating the known world, and having false, pagan Gods.

For me, it all comes back to Christians not being citizens' of this world, but the world to come. Yet while in the world, are subject to any and all laws and ordinances of the land they are in. Whatever nation it may be.

And he even goes farther than national laws saying to the Ephesians "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ" And then Peter said, do so "to both the good masters and the unjust"

Interesting stuff.

[badrose]

I thought the article did an exceptional job of the "if" and "when" Christians can make exceptions to the Romans passage.

[badrose]

Back to the topic. I get that cops using excessive force should be called out and dealt with either by local, state, the press, and ordinary citizens. Protesting excessive force in a general way is like saying mean people suck; everyone agrees but without specifics nothing can be done and that's true whether it's on national TV or on your favorite news channel. To protest at a football game is annoying to most who came to watch the game or watching at home on TV and, whether intended or not, offensive to those who are patriotic.

Just like terrorists, if you see something tell somebody, call attention to it, whatever it takes to expose that tactic.

[kingcat]

Yeah, I believe its kind of "look at me I'm spoiled, rich, and safely protesting" like.

Back in the day when we wanted to protest we all made a sign, put on our tie dyes and marched in the middle of the street. The celebs showed up too and put themselves out there with the masses.
Even then I'm not sure we all knew exactly what we were protesting at times, but if the cops dragged you away you were just happy to be on camera (never happened to me however).

Still those were meaningful moments of solidarity. If those celebs back in the sixties and early seventies had used their chosen fields to protest it would not have had the same, genuine impact.
Instead it almost wreaks of wanting to be known as a movement leader without really putting yourself out there. MLK put himself out there and both black and white stood with him forcing change because it was the right course of action.
If you believe strongly enough, pick up the cross of perceived oppression, and bare the burden of it. People will respect that and follow willingly if the cause is just.

Don't rely on shock value in the safety of your own surroundings, or offensive gestures aimed towards those who may not even understand your "cause"...and be viewed as an Alex Jones wannabe. A plastic shock jock

But I do support the right of free, non violent protest