OT: At least 20 killed in Vegas shooting

[CitizenBBN]

Jazy, I will join you on this one. My uncle was an avid gun collector and had his FFL. His collection was war centric and included weapons from every war the United States had ever been involved in. He had several fully auto weapons, and many, many years ago he allowed me to shoot one of them in full auto. It was a blast to do, but hitting an intended target after the first bullet went down range was impossible. I shot the sky full of holes that day.

I see no legitimate reason to allow their sale except for the fun the user has blasting away their hard earned money, and that is far and away outweighed but the potential deadly havoc their use can create.

In the AR it will have less lift than a real full auto, but I concur with you. It isn't accurate and isn't required even if the People had to rise up to stop a totalitarian threat, which would be the scenario requiring the most serious weapons.

I don't know that a ban is really needed but I do think they should be Form 4 restricted at least, so you have to pay the tax and register the weapon. or make them full blown Class III, which means only hard core collectors and gun ranges would have them.

this guy could of course have paid the tax, but clearly he had the money to go get anything he wanted so in this particular case I doubt anything "helps". He also may have had plans to make anfo or a car bomb, etc., and if he lacked the gun options he wanted maybe he goes that way.

But as a matter of design I think this is a case where the 1930s era NFA definitions aren't working for us.

[CitizenBBN]

I should add though that, even if these things didn't exist, it wouldn't have stopped this guy from doing what he did nor would it have prevented dozens from dying. I can't say how many rounds he'd have gotten off one way versus the other, but he was there for apparently about an hour before he was located and they came in the door.

In a shoulder to shoulder target zone of 22,000 people honestly I dont' know how it wasn't far worse with an hour to fire at people, bump stock or not.

And that's the great quandary of gun laws. People who support gun ownership are afraid of that slippery slope (seen in the past) where we ban X and then another tragedy happens and the next step is banning the next thing, then the next.

I'm fine with restricting bump stocks, but I also know it won't in any way lessen the tragedy or outrage or political implications of the next mass shooting tragedy, and that next one is completely inevitable.

With 300 million guns in the country and borders so insecure we are moving 100s of tons of narcotics into the US every year, I see no way to put a full stop on these things through gun legislation without just rounding them all up with door to door searches and a crackdown on security that would make Trump cringe.

And then this guy would just rent a truck and plow into people instead. Or fill a truck with anfo, or hijack a plane. It's just fundamentally beyond difficult to protect ourselves from the random insane person in a free and open society. We are by our nature a nation of soft targets and we don't invade people's privacy to the degree necessary to truly track these people.

This shooting is not unlike the Texas clock tower shooting, the only difference being there weren't 22,000 targets. FWIW that guy killed 15 and injured about 30 and there were no crowds. I have to wonder if you put him in that hotel room with an hour and a nearly can't miss scenario of firing into that concert if he'd kill nearly as many with nothing more than a WWII surplus M1 Carbine and a hunting rifle.

In fact, had this guy taken a normal rifle and a suppressor I have to wonder how many he'd have killed before the crowd even figured out it was under attack.

this was one sick guy with money and time. I don't know how you defend against such a thing.

[jazyd]

I should add though that, even if these things didn't exist, it wouldn't have stopped this guy from doing what he did nor would it have prevented dozens from dying. I can't say how many rounds he'd have gotten off one way versus the other, but he was there for apparently about an hour before he was located and they came in the door.

In a shoulder to shoulder target zone of 22,000 people honestly I dont' know how it wasn't far worse with an hour to fire at people, bump stock or not.

And that's the great quandary of gun laws. People who support gun ownership are afraid of that slippery slope (seen in the past) where we ban X and then another tragedy happens and the next step is banning the next thing, then the next.

I'm fine with restricting bump stocks, but I also know it won't in any way lessen the tragedy or outrage or political implications of the next mass shooting tragedy, and that next one is completely inevitable.

With 300 million guns in the country and borders so insecure we are moving 100s of tons of narcotics into the US every year, I see no way to put a full stop on these things through gun legislation without just rounding them all up with door to door searches and a crackdown on security that would make Trump cringe.

And then this guy would just rent a truck and plow into people instead. Or fill a truck with anfo, or hijack a plane. It's just fundamentally beyond difficult to protect ourselves from the random insane person in a free and open society. We are by our nature a nation of soft targets and we don't invade people's privacy to the degree necessary to truly track these people.

This shooting is not unlike the Texas clock tower shooting, the only difference being there weren't 22,000 targets. FWIW that guy killed 15 and injured about 30 and there were no crowds. I have to wonder if you put him in that hotel room with an hour and a nearly can't miss scenario of firing into that concert if he'd kill nearly as many with nothing more than a WWII surplus M1 Carbine and a hunting rifle.

In fact, had this guy taken a normal rifle and a suppressor I have to wonder how many he'd have killed before the crowd even figured out it was under attack.

this was one sick guy with money and time. I don't know how you defend against such a thing.

You cannot defend against evil

Ok bombing, fertilizer

France and England, trucks and knives.

No way to have stopped this guy, nothing shows up other than a speeding ticket...I have had 4. No mental problems, no record, no nothing.

Like citizen said, give me that spot and a hunting rifle and not a semi auto and I could kill 59. Only difference is I could not wound 500 . 22,000 packed together, easy targets.

Long time ago as a sales rep in the hunting business I talked to one of my big customers on a gun issue I felt couLd. be legislated and disagreed with the NRA. What he said made sense. The NRA would be glad to meet anyone half way IF they felt the other side wouldn'te push for more. The pendulum would not stop in the middle but rather swing fully to the other side. That's what the left wants the whole thing, no middle ground, no agreement, so the NRA and gun owners stand firm.

The left has no true solutions just more laws.

[jazyd]

I should add though that, even if these things didn't exist, it wouldn't have stopped this guy from doing what he did nor would it have prevented dozens from dying. I can't say how many rounds he'd have gotten off one way versus the other, but he was there for apparently about an hour before he was located and they came in the door.

In a shoulder to shoulder target zone of 22,000 people honestly I dont' know how it wasn't far worse with an hour to fire at people, bump stock or not.

And that's the great quandary of gun laws. People who support gun ownership are afraid of that slippery slope (seen in the past) where we ban X and then another tragedy happens and the next step is banning the next thing, then the next.

I'm fine with restricting bump stocks, but I also know it won't in any way lessen the tragedy or outrage or political implications of the next mass shooting tragedy, and that next one is completely inevitable.

With 300 million guns in the country and borders so insecure we are moving 100s of tons of narcotics into the US every year, I see no way to put a full stop on these things through gun legislation without just rounding them all up with door to door searches and a crackdown on security that would make Trump cringe.

And then this guy would just rent a truck and plow into people instead. Or fill a truck with anfo, or hijack a plane. It's just fundamentally beyond difficult to protect ourselves from the random insane person in a free and open society. We are by our nature a nation of soft targets and we don't invade people's privacy to the degree necessary to truly track these people.

This shooting is not unlike the Texas clock tower shooting, the only difference being there weren't 22,000 targets. FWIW that guy killed 15 and injured about 30 and there were no crowds. I have to wonder if you put him in that hotel room with an hour and a nearly can't miss scenario of firing into that concert if he'd kill nearly as many with nothing more than a WWII surplus M1 Carbine and a hunting rifle.

In fact, had this guy taken a normal rifle and a suppressor I have to wonder how many he'd have killed before the crowd even figured out it was under attack.

this was one sick guy with money and time. I don't know how you defend against such a thing.

You cannot defend against evil

Ok bombing, fertilizer

France and England, trucks and knives.

No way to have stopped this guy, nothing shows up other than a speeding ticket...I have had 4. No mental problems, no record, no nothing.

Like citizen said, give me that spot and a hunting rifle and not a semi auto and I could kill 59. Only difference is I could not wound 500 . 22,000 packed together, easy targets.

Long time ago as a sales rep in the hunting business I talked to one of my big customers on a gun issue I felt couLd. be legislated and disagreed with the NRA. What he said made sense. The NRA would be glad to meet anyone half way IF they felt the other side wouldn'te push for more. The pendulum would not stop in the middle but rather swing fully to the other side. That's what the left wants the whole thing, no middle ground, no agreement, so the NRA and gun owners stand firm.

The left has no true solutions just more laws.

[dan_bgblue]

[badrose]

This may be a clue to what happened:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/...-drug-in-june/

[dan_bgblue]

NRA calls on ATF to review bump stocks

“The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,” the NRA said in a written statement.

[CitizenBBN]

Wise, and fair, move.

They don't have to be banned, but they should fall under NFA Form 4 or Class III. We have a pretty thorough law for dealing with these kinds of things, it's just a question of what goes in what category, and it was ATF that allowed them to be street legal.

[dan_bgblue]

and it was ATF that allowed them to be street legal

During the Obama regime no less

[CitizenBBN]

During the Obama regime no less

Yep. Can't pin this one on the NRA or those evil white, male Republicans. Won't stop them from trying of course.

[CitizenBBN]

You cannot defend against evil

Ok bombing, fertilizer

France and England, trucks and knives.

No way to have stopped this guy, nothing shows up other than a speeding ticket...I have had 4. No mental problems, no record, no nothing.

Like citizen said, give me that spot and a hunting rifle and not a semi auto and I could kill 59. Only difference is I could not wound 500 . 22,000 packed together, easy targets.

Long time ago as a sales rep in the hunting business I talked to one of my big customers on a gun issue I felt couLd. be legislated and disagreed with the NRA. What he said made sense. The NRA would be glad to meet anyone half way IF they felt the other side wouldn'te push for more. The pendulum would not stop in the middle but rather swing fully to the other side. That's what the left wants the whole thing, no middle ground, no agreement, so the NRA and gun owners stand firm.

The left has no true solutions just more laws.

Jazy I have no doubt that's why the NRA takes some of the stances they do.

And they're 100% right as rain about it.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/10/0...re-gun-control

[KeithKSR]

I am very pro 2A, but see no reason why bump stocks shouldn't be regulated. They were originally designed for use by disabled shooters. I'm not sure exactly how they helped them. Perhaps some sort of requirement that shooters show a necessity for the device and the NFA form 4, with a fee less than that required for full auto weapons.

I think we will eventually learn that this nutcase intentionally targeted the country music show because attendees were more likely to be conservatives.

[Doc]

The legislative solution is quite simple...follow me here

1) give the liberals exactly what they want. A total ban on weapons, all weapons. You can't legally own a gun.

2) those who want to own a gun do so but don't register it. It would be "undocumented". See liberals have no issue with "undocumented" because in their mind that isn't illegal even if undocumented is against the law.

3) those states that want to have guns. like Texas, simply label themselves as "sanctuary states" and don't enforce the federal gun laws. People can openly carry guns but they won't be arrested because they are in a sanctuary state. Liberals have no issue ignoring laws under the sanctuary umbrella. In fact they are quite proud to do it. Time for the other side of the aisle to play the game using the same rules.

In this scenario everybody wins.

[Doc]

I think we will eventually learn that this nutcase intentionally targeted the country music show because attendees were more likely to be conservatives.

I'm still waiting for the "if this had been a rap concert, nobody would care" to come out by the black lives matter faction.

[Doc]

You cannot defend against evil

Ok bombing, fertilizer

France and England, trucks and knives.

No way to have stopped this guy, nothing shows up other than a speeding ticket...I have had 4. No mental problems, no record, no nothing.

Like citizen said, give me that spot and a hunting rifle and not a semi auto and I could kill 59. Only difference is I could not wound 500 . 22,000 packed together, easy targets.

Long time ago as a sales rep in the hunting business I talked to one of my big customers on a gun issue I felt couLd. be legislated and disagreed with the NRA. What he said made sense. The NRA would be glad to meet anyone half way IF they felt the other side wouldn'te push for more. The pendulum would not stop in the middle but rather swing fully to the other side. That's what the left wants the whole thing, no middle ground, no agreement, so the NRA and gun owners stand firm.

The left has no true solutions just more laws.

There was nothing that was going to identify this guy. My hunch is he just lost his marbles on day and decided to go out in a blaze of glory, take as many people with him as he could. Nothing was going to stop it, not even a gun ban because he would have found a way. Most know I'm fairly neutral on guns. Don't own them but don't care if you do. Believe in the second amendment but believe guns should be in the hands of ADULTS ONLY since they are by nature a dangerous instrument, like a car or cigarettes or alocohol....all things we restrict use to adults only (but a topic for another discussion, one thats been had). On 9/11 thousands were killed because the killers found a method. OK city, same thing. I'm getting more of the opinion that a mass murderer is going to find a way regardless. Banning fully automatics, large clips and things like bump stocks makes it more difficult, which is a good thing, but its still going to happen because of the nature of our culture.

[PedroDaGr8]

There was nothing that was going to identify this guy. My hunch is he just lost his marbles on day and decided to go out in a blaze of glory, take as many people with him as he could. Nothing was going to stop it, not even a gun ban because he would have found a way. Most know I'm fairly neutral on guns. Don't own them but don't care if you do. Believe in the second amendment but believe guns should be in the hands of ADULTS ONLY since they are by nature a dangerous instrument, like a car or cigarettes or alocohol....all things we restrict use to adults only (but a topic for another discussion, one thats been had). On 9/11 thousands were killed because the killers found a method. OK city, same thing. I'm getting more of the opinion that a mass murderer is going to find a way regardless. Banning fully automatics, large clips and things like bump stocks makes it more difficult, which is a good thing, but its still going to happen because of the nature of our culture.

While I'm not going to discount this, it's reported he made multiple "dry runs", renting similar rooms at multiple festivals. This was a very very premeditated thing, not a flipped switch.

Sent from my LG-ls990 using Tapatalk

[Doc]

While I'm not going to discount this, it's reported he made multiple "dry runs", renting similar rooms at multiple festivals. This was a very very premeditated thing, not a flipped switch.

Sent from my LG-ls990 using Tapatalk

Yes, it was clearly premeditated. But this guy wasn't somebody who has been running around for years, in and out of mental hospital, was associated with some radical organization or having run ins with the law. So my reference to "lost his marbles" is more in the line of one day he just decided to do this without any prewarning....then went about planning it.

[suncat05]

Was watching a news channel last night, and I find it amazing that between the Sheriff's Office & the FBI & other agencies involved, that nobody seems to know much more than what they initially found out right after the shooting was over.
Either something is way, way out of the norm here aside from any other terrorist shooting incident (oh, wait, I'm not allowed to say that out loud!!), or these people are sandbagging and keeping the truth from coming out. Guys, I've been an investigator before, and even if you need to keep things close to the vest in a situation like this, you still gain an advantage by giving out some kind of tidbits (even if it is misdirection) to gain ground in the investigation. These guys aren't even doing that, which is way, way outside of the norm. Which leads me to believe that there may be a lot more in play with this situation than meets the eye. JMHO.

[CitizenBBN]

Part of it is MGM is terrified of the lawsuits. They clamped down on that security guard, sequestered him, got him to cancel all interviews except one they control and which is a softball and a half, the Ellen show (produced by MGM).

They claim he had a laptop in his room but with no hard drive. Huh? I get wiping a drive, but for the wiped drive to be not there, and the laptop that is useless without a drive there, makes little sense. Still lots of questions.

[badrose]

I haven't see a lot of outcry for more information which makes me think TPTB has told the press to stand down.

[CitizenBBN]

As we were just discussing....

MGM is putting up the guard in an undisclosed MGM hotel property. They say for his safety and to get him away from crazy media. That sounds great except for that part where he's refused to do any interviews with anyone except Ellen, a MGM property. I also wonder if he's even talking to the FBI. Sounds like he may be out of the country altogether.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/27...mgm-hotel.html

[suncat05]

There's another thing that's bothering me. Even as spectacular of an event as this was, the one shooter we know of for sure is dead. That much we know. But as time goes by, this becomes less and less news relevant each day, being replaced by the likes of Kim Jung Fat Boy and Russian collusion and the latest Kardashian drama, and Weinstein's wiener escapades. Among other things.
I think our government is possibly up to no good with the way this is being handled. Unless there were other shooters, in which case this situation is not what it appears to be by usual standards.
I understand there is a lot of evidence to be processed, over a very large area, with many multiple victims/witnesses.
I am just not feeling this the way it is being presented.