OT: At least 20 killed in Vegas shooting

[Darrell KSR]

More than 100 injured.

http://cbsn.ws/2yjRwNG

[Darrell KSR]

Police believe more than 50 dead.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/vegas-strip...s_card_related

[VirginiaCat]

50 dead, over 200 injured. Guessing some were stampede injuries? God. Some type of wingnut going off.

He had to plan this very carefully. Assuming a 25% hit rate that is 1000 rounds.

[truecatsfan]

Prayers for everybody involved, what is this world coming to!!!

[Doc]

Was literally shooting fish in a barrel. Perched up in Mandalay Bay upper floor, shooting down into the crowd at the music festical with an automatic rifle is the report

[Padukacat]

Insane. Prayers to those families.

[dtalbersjr]

Woke up to this. Thought I had two friends out there, but they actually go Wednesday and next weekend. No words for the relief I felt when I heard from both of them.

I feel sick for everyone affected.

[ukpumacat]

Geez. I was there last weekend. At Mandalay Bay.

[snoopcat]

I was in Vegas last Sunday as well at the Mirage. Guy had been staying there since the Sept 28th. A lot of planning just to shoot random people with apparently no cause. Just can't comprehend a person that wants to harm others for no reason? Completely innocent people that I am sure he knew none of them.

[PedroDaGr8]

Current official reports at over 50 dead and over 400 wounded. Automatic gunfire from the 34th floor, straight down into a crowded music festival. The shooter reloaded multiple times and kept shooting.

Absolutely terrifying video:
https://twitter.com/edusamani/status/914748921842475008

At the end, you can hear the bullets ricocheting near the person talking the video.


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[Darryl]

My niece Meghan was there; she texted her Mother "running for our lives, love you Mom". Then Debbie (her Mom) did not hear from her till this morning. She is okay but very shook up. Rough night.

Darryl

[badrose]

So far there's no clue as to motive. Hard to believe his ability to get all those guns and ammo up to his room.

[ShoesSwayedBlue]

So far there's no clue as to motive. Hard to believe his ability to get all those guns and ammo up to his room.

Easy to put them in a golf club carrier I would think. No one would notice at all.

[CGWildcat]

My niece Meghan was there; she texted her Mother "running for our lives, love you Mom". Then Debbie (her Mom) did not hear from her till this morning. She is okay but very shook up. Rough night.

Darryl

So very happy your niece is okay Darryl.

Such an irrational and evil act.

[dtalbersjr]

My niece Meghan was there; she texted her Mother "running for our lives, love you Mom". Then Debbie (her Mom) did not hear from her till this morning. She is okay but very shook up. Rough night.

Darryl

Terrifying. Glad she's OK.

[Darrell KSR]

58 dead, 515 injured...

[MTcatfan]

Brother was just interviewed, said it was like an asteroid landed on him this morning. He said he moved him from his previous home to Mesquite, NV and he didn't have any automatic weapons when he did that. He said he had a gun safe a couple handguns, maybe 1 long gun, but that as far as he knew the shooter had never drawn a gun in his life. The brother looked to me to be in complete shock, and at the end mentions that he has a 90 year old mother he now has to tell her that her son killed over 50 people last night.

[badrose]

Caught this on Drudge. Hadn't seen or heard it elsewhere.

http://nypost.com/2017/10/02/vegas-g...t-wanted-list/

[ribbonfish]

Psycho or IS? Either way act of evil. My prayers to all those involved unfortunately.


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[CitizenBBN]

Not that it matters, but I pieced together what they're talking about re the guns. Many media reporting they were "automatic", or "modified to fire full auto". That's only sorta right.

Appears that 2 of the guns, almost assuredly the AR-15s, were equipped with what are called "bump stocks". They're designed to move with the kickback of the rifle so you just hold your finger across the stock like you're firing the gun and as the stock and gun move it will catch the trigger and fire again. Done right you do get a very rapid rate of fire. Not Full auto fast, but faster than most can pull the trigger themselves.

But we are talking about a difference of seconds. a full auto 30 round mag will get fired in about 3 seconds. OK you can double or triple that or so for a good trained shooter on his own, or say split the difference with a bump stock, but regardless you're going to lay down a lot of fire in the situation this guy set up. Just beyond the imagination of conscience what he clearly planned and executed over a period of days.

It doesn't matter but thought I'd clarify the media reports out there. He didn't do any hardcore mods to these guns, those mods are actually very tricky on these kinds of weapons, he got around it with other means.

Also they are reporting they found tannerite, an explosive used in exploding targets and also movie props, and in his car found ammonium nitrate fertilizer, the base ingredient in anfo (along with diesel fuel). The tannerite can be set off only by a high power rifle round. I have to wonder if he was planning on packing a car with anfo then detonating it with a rifle shot to the tannerite, or if he just happened to have that stuff then went another way.

Sounds like whether with guns or explosives or both, he was pondering and working on this for a while. A stunning level of evil and insanity.

[Darrell KSR]

Thanks, CBBN. I appreciate that info. Makes sense now.

[suncat05]

My wife's cousin and his two daughters live out in Vegas. We have been out there before. He works for Bank of America, but does moonlight as a Lyft driver. When we spoke, he said he had been to Mandalay Bay most of the night on Friday, but decided to cut his hours on Saturday night because he was tired. He actually left the area just before the shooting started. Thank God he did!
He and the girls are fine, were the not in the area when it happened.
Another nutjob punishing innocent people who likely had nothing to do with his problems. And if course, since guns were involved in the murders of at least 59 innocent people, the left-wing gun control zealots are seizing the opportunity to push their illicit agenda against those of us who are law abiding gun owners.
So thanks, Mr. Paddock, you murdering scumbag POS!

[MTcatfan]

Yes, way to vilify the opposition because those that disagree with you are evil people...man I just love politics today, lets not try to work together to come up with a viable solution, lets just say the other side is wrong, I am right and do absolutely nothing about anything.

[PedroDaGr8]

Not that it matters, but I pieced together what they're talking about re the guns. Many media reporting they were "automatic", or "modified to fire full auto". That's only sorta right.

Appears that 2 of the guns, almost assuredly the AR-15s, were equipped with what are called "bump stocks". They're designed to move with the kickback of the rifle so you just hold your finger across the stock like you're firing the gun and as the stock and gun move it will catch the trigger and fire again. Done right you do get a very rapid rate of fire. Not Full auto fast, but faster than most can pull the trigger themselves.

But we are talking about a difference of seconds. a full auto 30 round mag will get fired in about 3 seconds. OK you can double or triple that or so for a good trained shooter on his own, or say split the difference with a bump stock, but regardless you're going to lay down a lot of fire in the situation this guy set up. Just beyond the imagination of conscience what he clearly planned and executed over a period of days.

It doesn't matter but thought I'd clarify the media reports out there. He didn't do any hardcore mods to these guns, those mods are actually very tricky on these kinds of weapons, he got around it with other means.

Also they are reporting they found tannerite, an explosive used in exploding targets and also movie props, and in his car found ammonium nitrate fertilizer, the base ingredient in anfo (along with diesel fuel). The tannerite can be set off only by a high power rifle round. I have to wonder if he was planning on packing a car with anfo then detonating it with a rifle shot to the tannerite, or if he just happened to have that stuff then went another way.

Sounds like whether with guns or explosives or both, he was pondering and working on this for a while. A stunning level of evil and insanity.

Interesting discussion, reading online a bit more about them, it basically puts the gun in oscillation with the trigger finger (correct?). This allows for firing rates on an AR-15 on the order of 400-800 rounds per minute, far far faster than humanly possible. What is your opinion on the legality of said items? In my opinion, they are a means to circumvent the idea of the automatic weapon restrictions, a legal loophole in essence. Would you support their inclusion under NFA restrictions? What about if it was the legislation of bump stocks as opposition to the liberal intent to ban things like AR-15s?

[jazyd]

Yes, way to vilify the opposition because those that disagree with you are evil people...man I just love politics today, lets not try to work together to come up with a viable solution, lets just say the other side is wrong, I am right and do absolutely nothing about anything.

Difference in a discussion vs what the left has done immediately. A gun control lady was on Fox last night with Bill Hemmer and was asked directly what law she would put in that would have stopped what happened. Naturally she had no answer other than the federal government needs to look into it. Even after she was told that no current federal law would have prevented what happened and that the shooter passed ALL the federal background checks.

That is the left,no answers just politics playing to their base. much like Obama and his chief of staff said, always use a tragedy to push your agenda.

How about activist liberal judges who make criminals go to jail for the full term or not letting them go to begin with. What about those thousands of murders, mostly by black citizens or illegals, in Chicago. Why are those people not in jail for a long time and why does the left, Hollywood, black athletes not protest those murders?

Its all about their base and votes. They could care less about the actual guns, the just want the votes period. And to stir them up constantly with any tragedy they can use. They never even mention the victims or what laws could prevent this.

I am on suncats side, he puts his life on the line every day knowing there are whack jobs out there who would shoot him in a minute and that there are judges out there who constantly allow criminals to go free, just check the criminal records of any who are caught in the future and ask yourself why that person is on the streets.

Put yourself in suncats shoes and see how you feel.

Tell us what new gun laws you would come up with that would have prevented this, and I do mean new.

[jazyd]

Yes, way to vilify the opposition because those that disagree with you are evil people...man I just love politics today, lets not try to work together to come up with a viable solution, lets just say the other side is wrong, I am right and do absolutely nothing about anything.

The only one using the word 'evil" people is you. Suncat called them left wing gun control zealots, not evil.

[jazyd]

Not that it matters, but I pieced together what they're talking about re the guns. Many media reporting they were "automatic", or "modified to fire full auto". That's only sorta right.

Appears that 2 of the guns, almost assuredly the AR-15s, were equipped with what are called "bump stocks". They're designed to move with the kickback of the rifle so you just hold your finger across the stock like you're firing the gun and as the stock and gun move it will catch the trigger and fire again. Done right you do get a very rapid rate of fire. Not Full auto fast, but faster than most can pull the trigger themselves.

But we are talking about a difference of seconds. a full auto 30 round mag will get fired in about 3 seconds. OK you can double or triple that or so for a good trained shooter on his own, or say split the difference with a bump stock, but regardless you're going to lay down a lot of fire in the situation this guy set up. Just beyond the imagination of conscience what he clearly planned and executed over a period of days.

It doesn't matter but thought I'd clarify the media reports out there. He didn't do any hardcore mods to these guns, those mods are actually very tricky on these kinds of weapons, he got around it with other means.

Also they are reporting they found tannerite, an explosive used in exploding targets and also movie props, and in his car found ammonium nitrate fertilizer, the base ingredient in anfo (along with diesel fuel). The tannerite can be set off only by a high power rifle round. I have to wonder if he was planning on packing a car with anfo then detonating it with a rifle shot to the tannerite, or if he just happened to have that stuff then went another way.

Sounds like whether with guns or explosives or both, he was pondering and working on this for a while. A stunning level of evil and insanity.

As a life long gun owner I would be in favor of outlawing these bump stocks, they have no real use

[dan_bgblue]

Jazy, I will join you on this one. My uncle was an avid gun collector and had his FFL. His collection was war centric and included weapons from every war the United States had ever been involved in. He had several fully auto weapons, and many, many years ago he allowed me to shoot one of them in full auto. It was a blast to do, but hitting an intended target after the first bullet went down range was impossible. I shot the sky full of holes that day.

I see no legitimate reason to allow their sale except for the fun the user has blasting away their hard earned money, and that is far and away outweighed but the potential deadly havoc their use can create.

[CitizenBBN]

Interesting discussion, reading online a bit more about them, it basically puts the gun in oscillation with the trigger finger (correct?). This allows for firing rates on an AR-15 on the order of 400-800 rounds per minute, far far faster than humanly possible. What is your opinion on the legality of said items? In my opinion, they are a means to circumvent the idea of the automatic weapon restrictions, a legal loophole in essence. Would you support their inclusion under NFA restrictions? What about if it was the legislation of bump stocks as opposition to the liberal intent to ban things like AR-15s?

They'll never be nearly as fast as real full auto, but yes they are absolutely faster than a trained shooter.

Are they a loophole? Yes in a way I have to say they are, but in a way they are not. The definition of full auto is not met in that you don't hold the trigger and the gun slam fires away. You do have to pull the trigger each time.

however, it is constructed in such a way that pulling the trigger happens faster than a human could otherwise do it (though not as much faster as you may think). What IS very different is how long you can sustain it. A human can empty a 30 round mag in a semi auto in probably double the time of a bump stock, but still really fast, say less than 10 seconds. A really well trained shooter can do it in 7-8 seconds. But a human can't do that for very long, they get tired. A bump stock makes it much easier to go longer.

So if they were included in the NFA no I wouldn't have a strong objection. Honestly I think they need a special category that is not Class III but rather falls in with silencers and short barrel rifles and shotguns. Those devices are "legal" but require a tax and a separate registration process. You can't just go buy one off the shelf, it requires a human ATF approval of the person making the purchase and even sign off by local LEOs.

They aren't NFA Class III, they aren't full auto, but they are probably in a class of weapons deemed to still be advanced and dangerous enough to require special processing. That's how SBRs and SBSs are treated (short barrel rifles and shotguns), as well as silencers. Silencers are getting more popular b/c they do make guns easier and safer (due to hearing) to shoot, so they are being pushed into the mainstream more, but IMO bump stocks are more like SBRs.

Short barrel rifles and shotguns were put on those lists in part b/c they didn't want people concealing a sawed off shotgun. The irony is they then approved the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor, both of which hold 5 .410 gauge shotgun shells and they are pistols. There are several other rifles and shotguns that clearly are below legal lengths that ATF classified as acceptable. I have one, an AK called a Draco, that is defined as a pistol even though it holds 30 round AK mags. There are AR-15 variants that are the same way. Then there are others that they dont' allow, it's got an odd inconsistency to it.

But yes, I'd be fine with added restrictions for them. I strongly believe the 2nd Amendment was put there to allow the People to defend even against their own government, so I believe things like ARs and Aks are legal b/c the intention wasn't just to allow hunting but rather a real defense against not just criminals but totalitarianism itself. But we've decided that doesn't mean everyone gets a Thompson submachine gun (as much as I want one personally b/c they are so historic), and I'm not convinced bump stocks are needed to mount that defense either.

In fact no military would use them. They have gone away from full auto in all but mounted machineguns, training to pick targets better and use small bursts. The M4 and SAW use at most a 3 round burst. Special forces now are issued a M4 carbine that does have full auto, strictly for "clearing rooms" as it were in close combat situations, but standard military issue doesn't even use full auto.

Also the nature of bump stocks mean they aren't very accurate. By definition you're letting the gun's recoil go enough to allow the gun to basically bounce back and forth enough to reset the trigger, at least an inch, and while an AR has so little muzzle lift you can keep it on target it's clearly not used while sighting the gun and picking targets.

So if we have to stop the zombies or the Russians or Chinese our our own government and our citizenry is forced to mount a response, yes I think we'll be sufficiently equipped without bump stocks being sold over the counter.

And that's from a guy who is about as pro gun as you can get. The ARs need to be legal, but make the bump stocks a Form 2 ATF item like a short barrel rifle.

[CitizenBBN]

Sorry for the length, I did prattle on.

I will add that one can make a case that these bump stocks should go on the restricted list of SBRs and SBSs and those should actually come off. It's not clear at all that a rifle with a shorter barrel is vastly more dangerous than anything else we have as an option. Handguns now are much more advanced and higher in capacity. Like I said, we have revolvers now that shoot .410 shells, are they really somehow "OK" but a sawed off 12ga with 2 shots is a huge special risk?

Is an Uzi with a short barrel really more risk than one with a regular barrel? Or more to the point is it more of a risk than just packing a Tec-9 with the same capacity mag or a Glock with the same mag? You can put a 30 round mag in a Glock and it's a hell of a lot smaller than an Uzi with a 30 round mag, but an UZI with the short barrel is a restricted item and the Glock is fine.

Lots of inconsistencies in how these laws have evolved, the bump stocks are just one example.