Should The Pyramids Be Toppled

[UKHistory]

The Union went to war with the Confederacy over taxes, not slavery per se. Many articles state this, but here is one.

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/...oric_is_i.html

Technically the south fired the first shot at fort sumpter. The south left the union becausetheir right they feared losing was the peculiar institution of slavery

[CitizenBBN]

Technically the south fired the first shot at fort sumpter. The south left the union becausetheir right they feared losing was the peculiar institution of slavery

I disagree somewhat on the image of the South starting the war, and while I agree slavery was obviously central to the issue IMO it was part of a much bigger and longer term problem we never could tackle politically.

First on Fort Sumter, the fort wasn't finished at the time South Carolina seceded from the Union. It was occupied by federal Major Anderson, and there was a standoff with the state militia. It was when Lincoln announced he was going to resupply the fort that the first shots were fired.

In fact this started before Lincoln was President, with Anderson moving his small garrison from an old fort to Fort Sumter. Many federal military encampments were seized by Southern states, and I note here that it was the Union government that decided to not just leave, forcing the situation.

South Carolina forced the retreat of one supply ship, Lincoln as a new President announced he would resupply and thus hold the fort. The fort was then taken.

Even then there was no war. It was Lincoln who called for troops to put down the "rebellion". The Republicans, unlike outgoing Democrat Buchanan, saw this as a rebellion and not the states leaving. Buchanan said the union was meant to be perpetual but that there was no authority in the Constitution to call for troops to force a state to stay. LIncoln disagreed and called for troops from the states.

It was the Republican party of the era that decided states can't just up and leave the union. As Southern Congressmen resigned they had the votes to pass a lot of laws the South had blocked, and to make these decisions.

Now, Fort Sumter did galvanize public opinion in the North for war, no doubt, and it was the first shots, but I take issue with the implication that South carolina started the actual war. They did try to drive union forces from Charleston, but by staying clearly the Union wasn't recognizing the autonomy of South Carolina or the right to leave.


Can you tell I like discussing the Civil War? Actually the buildup to the war is even more interesting, the deep politics of it all.

Now, where I do agree is that slavery was becoming a seminal issue in the war. It was NOT the only issue, and I take great issue with the idea that those who fought for the south were somehow "fighting for slavery", any more than our men in WWII were fighting for Japanese internment and Jim Crowe laws (both going on at the time of WWII). they were fighting for their home and their right to decide things for themselves, for better or worse.

The rift goes back a long way, and slavery was always part of it, but so were tariffs and other factors. In fact once the South left Congress one of the first things the North passed was a tariff act. The tariff battle goes back to the Age of Jackson in the 1820s, and is a reflection of the increasingly industrial north and the agrarian south. They were simply two entirely different economies.

Slavery was thus a big factor, but really slavery was in part a synonym for agrarian versus industrial. To keep enough votes in Congress to block tariffs and banking acts and currency acts, all of which the South didnt' want and all of which were desired by the North, they needed enough agrarian votes in Congress to hold the line as the nation expanded.

No doubt they didn't want to lose slavery, but it was really the entire economy at risk. Had the North gotten enough votes slavery was going to be decreased but there would also be tariffs, currency bills, centralized banks, etc., all of which were seen as things that would hurt the agrarian economy and help the north.

It was truly a nation divided in so many ways, over slavery no doubt (and rightly so) but also just two completely different set of economic interests.

I'm not defending the defense of slavery. When you read the great Americans from Jefferson to Lincoln you see a consistent theme: they all know it is wrong, but they can't figure out how to move from the economic system of slavery to some other without exactly what happened, vast economic destruction and probably war.

Jefferson knew it was an evil institution, they all did. But ending it all at once would have decimated the economy of the nation, and they simply never found a good way out.

Much like North Korea today, there were no good options yet we clearly face an evil that needs to end. We just don't know how to end it, and neither did they.

The hope of the FOunders was that, with the end of the slave trade built into the Constitution that it would simply wind down, moving over time to a wage based workforce and it would end of its own accord. And in fact by the 1840s that was very much looking to be the case. The thing that changed it all was Eli Whitney's cotton gin. The gin allowed the South to produce vastly more cotton for export, and slavery that had been waning suddenly boomed.

[CitizenBBN]

But I have real issue with the "progressive" notion that anyone who fought for the South was doing so to support slavery, or that they are evil for having defended the South.

Are all Germans who fought in WWII evil b/c they fought for the Nazis? Are all Japanese who fought for the Japanese militarists evil b/c of the Rape of Nanking and other numerous Japanese atrocities?

that's what this leftist notion is saying. This or that person who fought for the South is evil purely b/c the South had slaves and slavery is evil, so anyone who didn't ride north and abandon their home and family and community is evil.

now, we did hold certain Germans and Japanese accountable for their specific actions, in war crimes tribunals, but we never looked at every armed German or Japanese soldier as evil once the guns were laid down and the war ended. Quite the contrary we have reached out with respect and made them great allies.

I know men, now gone, who fought in WWII and b/c of their experience were never able to forgive Japan or Germany, and I get that view and don't blame them a bit. But I know many who found friends and respect among their opposites, knowing they were just fighting for their country just like they were for America. It's what you do.

To me this is just like those who spat on our soldiers coming back from Vietnam. Those men didn't go there to kill babies or whatever, they went there b/c their nation called on them and they served. It really was and is that simple for those who fight and die for their nation, both our nation and others.

Likewise many if not most of those who fought for the South did so out of nothing more than loyalty for their homes. They didn't get through the cold, the heat, the dysentery and the war wounds inspired by preserving slavery. 90% of those who fought for the south never owned a slave nor would ever own one. They fought for their state, their home.

yet we will now tear down their statues, shame their names and act as if they were Simon Legree himself.

To me that's the same as calling a Vietnam vet a baby killer b/c Washington decided to bomb the North, or acting like every Japanese or German in WWII is a war criminal.

it's naive, it's dangerous, it's nothing more than a Maoist tactic to destroy history and understanding and tolerance in order to concentrate power.

No doubt some small number are offended by that history. Some of it should offend us all, but we don't turn from that offense, we see it and learn from it, and we dont' demonize those who don't deserve it b/c o that offense.

On a personal note I could never go to Vietnam as a tourist. I didn't serve, but that war destroyed my family. it's more than I could bear to see it. But I will not hate someone just for being Vietnamese. That's how you handle it, not by demonizing people, not by erasing their history, but by learning and moving forward to make things better.

[Catonahottinroof]

Lincoln's own words at his inauguration proves that assertion incorrect UKHistory. It was about taxes, or the failure of the Southern states to pay them.
Excerpted from Lincoln's
Inaugural address March 4, 1861
"I have no purpose, directly or in-directly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so,"
The reason for SC succession was financial due to the Tariff of 1857 that was instituted as a result of the bank scare that same year. That was supplanted by the Morrill Tariff Act of 1861 on some good were being tariffed at close to 50%.
Once SC succeeded, Lincoln called on bordering states to arms against SC, and the succession was on in earnest at that point.

[CitizenBBN]

Tariffs were a huge issue between the north and south. John Calhoun resigned in large part over the issue, and it was a constant issue from the 1820s forward.

And as you mentioned as soon as enough Southern states left the Congress the first thing they did was pass the tariff act.

It was a battle between agrarian and increasingly industrial economies. Tariffs were going to be largely a burden on the south. The northern companies would benefit, and while their people would pay they would have jobs and profit from it. The South was going to pay for finished goods, as you said as much as 50% more, and get nothing back out.

Everyone points to the Emancipation Proclamation as "freeing the slaves" but it's fairly misleading. It was only on states that left, and didn't even include territories of those states that had been captured by the North. The idea was to encourage insurrection in the rebel states, and slaves in states that stayed loyal weren't freed. It wasn't until the 13th Amendment was passed that slaves were really freed.

Lincoln never considered himself an "abolitionist", a term that at the time was fairly radical even after he won the election of 1860. Most felt slavery was wrong morally, but few were of a mind to grant the black man equal rights such as voting and such. In fact Lincoln specifically disavowed the claim he saw blacks as equal, and said specifically they should not be the social or political equal of whites.

the point being that even the most visionary and progressive men of their times, from Jefferson to Lincoln and everyone in between, would fail the modern litmus tests being used. MLK would fail it for Heaven's sake.

Slavery was a part of the Civil War, but more b/c of its economic implications than the moral ones. Tariffs were also a bit part of it, a tax that was going to be primarily on the South. it served as a motivation for some, but largely it was one part of a war over economics and influence within the nation. A big part, but one part.

[kingcat]

By the existing laws Lincoln did not have the right to ban slavery, nor the clout to challenge it. Other factors came into play which made it prudent to do so.
But he did not support slavery at all in his life.
He certainly didn't want war, but was trying to walk a thin line in protecting the union. Key to doing so was maintaining the support of key states that also held slaves. He was careful with his words, but abolishing slavery proved to be the over riding factor behind him going to war. Thank God for it.

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling."

As president he had no authority to free the slaves but a desire to preserve the union. There were slave holding States also in the Union at that time crucial to that end

It was only his power as Commander and Chief of the military in wartime to act upon his conscience and emancipate slaves.
That's also why at first not all slaves were free. Emancipation was an ongoing progress

[CitizenBBN]

I agree, he saw he had no power to free them per the Constitution, and he was right.

But you mentioned Justice Taney, and he was in the same boat. Again, it would take an act of Congress and the states to amend the Constitution to address the issue. If his statue is to come down when he ruled on the current law, will it be long before Lincoln is seen the same way, whether he was right or not?

At the time Abolitionists didn't have any such reservations, and wanted it done, period. that's why Lincoln would fail these modern tests, and eventually he will be turned on as well.

FWIW, it's not clear the Constitution gave him authority to preserve the Union either. Buchanan certainly felt it granted no such authority, and there's nothing in there about it being perpetual or what to do if a state leaves.

California is now talking about referendum to leave. Do we enforce it the same way we did last time if they actually try? The issue was settled at the end of a gun last time.

[Catonahottinroof]

Slavery was a factor in ending the war, but it was taxes that started it. The North built 30,000 miles of railroad with southern port Tariff money. Very little of those tariffs ended up in southern states.

Tariffs were a huge issue between the north and south. John Calhoun resigned in large part over the issue, and it was a constant issue from the 1820s forward.

And as you mentioned as soon as enough Southern states left the Congress the first thing they did was pass the tariff act.

It was a battle between agrarian and increasingly industrial economies. Tariffs were going to be largely a burden on the south. The northern companies would benefit, and while their people would pay they would have jobs and profit from it. The South was going to pay for finished goods, as you said as much as 50% more, and get nothing back out.

Everyone points to the Emancipation Proclamation as "freeing the slaves" but it's fairly misleading. It was only on states that left, and didn't even include territories of those states that had been captured by the North. The idea was to encourage insurrection in the rebel states, and slaves in states that stayed loyal weren't freed. It wasn't until the 13th Amendment was passed that slaves were really freed.

Lincoln never considered himself an "abolitionist", a term that at the time was fairly radical even after he won the election of 1860. Most felt slavery was wrong morally, but few were of a mind to grant the black man equal rights such as voting and such. In fact Lincoln specifically disavowed the claim he saw blacks as equal, and said specifically they should not be the social or political equal of whites.

the point being that even the most visionary and progressive men of their times, from Jefferson to Lincoln and everyone in between, would fail the modern litmus tests being used. MLK would fail it for Heaven's sake.

Slavery was a part of the Civil War, but more b/c of its economic implications than the moral ones. Tariffs were also a bit part of it, a tax that was going to be primarily on the South. it served as a motivation for some, but largely it was one part of a war over economics and influence within the nation. A big part, but one part.

[CitizenBBN]

Slavery was a factor in ending the war, but it was taxes that started it. The North built 30,000 miles of railroad with southern port Tariff money. Very little of those tariffs ended up in southern states.

you'll get no argument from me.

There's a great book on slavery and the war, the title alludes me but I have it on a shelf, was used in one of my best classes. It mapped the issue from the 1820s through to the start of the war.

What you see is that no doubt moral objections to slavery grew during that time, both north and south in fact, but in the south that opposition was seen as largely disingenuous b/c there were no reforms for the "wage slavery" of the north, and it always came with tariffs and infrastructure and foreign policy that aided the north, often to the detriment of the south.

Taxes were a huge part of it, and as i said the Missouri Compromise was as much about preserving the balance in the Congress to prevent tariffs and banking laws as much as it was about preserving slavery.

That's why the compromises proposed both prior to Fort Sumter and afterward before the actual battles started all failed. Going back to the Missouri Compromise of 1820 through to the Compromise of 1850 with Henry Clay and all the acts in between (Kansas/Nebraska Act etc.), the battle was in name over slavery, but was really about maintaining balance between agrarian and industrial states in Congress.

There were offers to retain slavery in the existing states, but the South knew that if more non-slave states were admitted they would end up outvoted on not just slavery but tariffs and everything else.

The two parts of the nation were growing in different directions. The North was industrializing, the South was completely entrenched in agriculture, making their money on exports of high dollar crops like cotton, indigo, etc. They wanted low tariffs for purchased goods but also as part of negotiating with other nations to accept their products without tariffs.

The NOrth wanted high tariffs to protect their industries and weren't as focused on exports. If they put a 50% tariff on English finished goods and England responded with a big tariff on cotton it wouldn't hurt them.

I can't deny that slavery as a social issue had grown dramatically from the 1820s through to the war, it did. You have the rise of Abolitionists who had a fair amount of influence, but they were not the mainstream party of the NOrth by far. In fact Lincoln and others had to avoid being painted as such in order to win elections.

But tariffs and banking laws and such were huge factors in this schism. The banking issues get overlooked, but that was a big deal too, going back to the First Bank of the US and the battles between Nicolas Biddle and Andrew Jackson's administration.

Just like modern elections, it's always about the economy and money. The Dems lost this last one b/c they worried about who uses what bathroom, not jobs. Trump won b/c he talked about jobs.

that hasn't changed. The battle was over who gets to keep which part of the pie, jobs, profits, money. It's always over economics, and slavery was a part of it but it was the economic part that drove things far more than the obvious moral bankruptcy of the institution.

[CitizenBBN]

One more aside, but if one wanted to look at the role of tariffs specifically with the mindset of South Carolina, they need to look at the Nullification Crisis. South Carolina was all but ready to leave the union in the 1830s over tariffs.

The Tariff of 1828 was called the "Tariff of Abominations" and was particularly hard on South Carolina with the port of Charleston. As much as anything it galvanized the politics of South carolina to be anti-Union.

When Jackson didn't provide any remedy for it South Carolina decided they'd just declare the whole Act null and void in their state. When they passed their nullification resolution after the Tariff of 1832 it included plans for the militia to defend it. Calhoun, who interestingly started out his career pro-tariff, resigned the Vice PResidency over it, returning as a Senator.

a new act was passed in 1833 that was acceptable, but Congress also passed the FOrce Act, giving the President power to enforce the tariff. South Carolina saved face by repealing their nullification due to the lowered tariffs of the new act, but then nullified the Force Act to save political face.

But yes, the first near military battle of the Civil War was actually 30 years earlier and that one was 100% over tariffs.

It shouldn't be a surprise either. Taxes are a very galvanizing thing for Americans. England helped touch off the Revolution with them, and it nearly started a war in South Carolina long before slavery became a major issue.

There was a deep and abiding rift between North and South on nearly every major issue from the 1820s till the war. In the end no amount of political compromise would work, it just forestalled the inevitable for 40 years.

[Catonahottinroof]

Slavery was the economic that either government couldn't tax. Yes, as Clinton said, "it's the economy stupid"....

[CitizenBBN]

Slavery was the economic that either government couldn't tax. Yes, as Clinton said, "it's the economy stupid"....

Agreed. Always has been about the economy, always will be.

It was then, it is now. It's just hard for people to think of slavery as an economic system, and think in terms of history that people could agree the institution was morally wrong but not know how to do anything about it due to the economic implications.

The Founders hoped it would just die out or that future generations would finish the work of ending it, but the economics of slavery kept it alive. It was profitable, and that is what kept it alive. that and the cotton gin.

[kingcat]

I agree, he saw he had no power to free them per the Constitution, and he was right.

But you mentioned Justice Taney, and he was in the same boat. Again, it would take an act of Congress and the states to amend the Constitution to address the issue. If his statue is to come down when he ruled on the current law, will it be long before Lincoln is seen the same way, whether he was right or not?

At the time Abolitionists didn't have any such reservations, and wanted it done, period. that's why Lincoln would fail these modern tests, and eventually he will be turned on as well.

FWIW, it's not clear the Constitution gave him authority to preserve the Union either. Buchanan certainly felt it granted no such authority, and there's nothing in there about it being perpetual or what to do if a state leaves.

California is now talking about referendum to leave. Do we enforce it the same way we did last time if they actually try? The issue was settled at the end of a gun last time.

Taney and Lincoln are not similar at all. One hated slavery and the other considered slavery doing blacks, whom he believed to be lesser human beings, a favor. One deserves memorial for both his thoughts and actions...the other deserves no public memorial other than a grave marker.

Taney penned the majority opinion in the infamous Dred Scott case.. One of the worst Supreme court decisions in history.
Taney was also a slave owner and the language he used in the opinion were truly his feelings and upsetting even for his day..

Abraham Lincoln called the decision “erroneous.” That alone explains the difference.

On March 15, 1857, he delivered the majority opinion in the case, stating that African Americans, free or slave, could not be citizens of any state, that they were "of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race." This decision and its inflammatory language aggravated the political crisis and met with furious opposition among Republicans. Taney remained defiant. Writing to Franklin Pierce in 1857, he declared that he believed with "abiding confidence that this act of my judicial life will stand the test of time and the sober judgment of the country."

When Abraham Lincoln became president, he treated Taney as an enemy and defied a Taney decision forbidding him to suspend habeas corpus in portions of Maryland after the outbreak of the Civil War..
When Taney died in Washington in 1864, the prestige of the Supreme Court was at a low ebb and Taney himself was widely vilified.

[dan_bgblue]

The thing that changed it all was Eli Whitney's cotton gin. The gin allowed the South to produce vastly more cotton for export, and slavery that had been waning suddenly boomed.

Eli Whtney is part of history courses taught throughout the country, and in those texts he is lauded for his great invention which allowed for automation of part of the cotton industry. I guess folks have just ignored this fact as he has never been defamed for his part in the growth of slavery in the south.

Interesting and honest article about Whitney.

[kingcat]

I cant get the link to work Dan I did read an excerpt from a children's history course.

This is the only reference to slavery.


Impact on Slavery

Although Whitney didn't become rich over his patent, many plantation owners in the South did. They were now able to make a lot of money off cotton crops using the cotton gin. This had the unintended consequence that more slaves were needed to pick cotton from the fields. Over the next several years, slaves became even more important and valuable to plantation owners. Some historians point to the cotton gin's impact on slavery as an eventual cause to the Civil War.

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks for letting me know. I think it is now fixed

[Doc]

Slavery was a factor in ending the war, but it was taxes that started it. The North built 30,000 miles of railroad with southern port Tariff money. Very little of those tariffs ended up in southern states.

That settles it. I'm officially against taxes. All taxes should be abolished and anybody supporting taxation should be shunned. Any monuments to those folks, or any built with tax money should be destroyed

[Catonahottinroof]

Considering those tariffs were about 70-80% of the federal budget and nearly none of the money was spent it the states that originated the Tariff, they had the same opinion as you Doc.

That settles it. I'm officially against taxes. All taxes should be abolished and anybody supporting taxation should be shunned. Any monuments to those folks, or any built with tax money should be destroyed

[CitizenBBN]

Kingcat, I'm not comparing Taney and Lincoln directly, but I am pointing out that what you today consider to be a good record on slavery will not be in the future, probably before you and I are gone. There was a time Taney was held up as an accomplished Chief Justice, thus his statue.

Taney was no doubt far more negative on blacks and more pro slavery than Lincoln ever was, but Lincoln does have some very disconcerting beliefs that would never pass muster today. Heck some, including his support for colonization, weren't even passable at the time.

Here's a popularly cited quote:

I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality ... I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men.

Then there was the issue of his being a "colonization" supporter, basically rounding up blacks and sending them somewhere else. he wanted it b/c he thought we'd never really get along. He may be right apparently.

Look, I think Lincoln was a true hero, one of the great men of American history, but I think that of Washington and Jefferson as well.

I'm just pointing out that he will, in the end, be damned b/c the way people are now judging the past is to take current norms and values and mores and snatching a person from long ago and measuring them by those tests. it's absurd, but it's what we're seeing.

[KeithKSR]

There are few people alive today who have ancestors that were never subjugated by others.

[CitizenBBN]

There are few people alive today who have ancestors that were never subjugated by others.

None. Not one.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW, a quick google search will find that many in academia are already attacking Lincoln and the others. Colleges are already prepared to grab their little red books and go a'marching. it's coming.

[Catonahottinroof]

Part of the problem as I see it from quite a few these days is imposing 2017 morality on 1861 situations. Different times, different results. Another reason why the history should remain, purely to allow learning of what occurred back then, and in the haste to fit today's agenda in it, the same mistakes aren't made again.

[dan_bgblue]

Congressman, Native American: When political correctness runs amok -- erasing our history doesn't change it

[dan_bgblue]

How is what we are doing so different from what ISIS is doing in Syria, destroying "pagan" temples and idols b/c they offend their faith?

Charlie Daniels compares taking down Confederate statues to ISIS: 'Where does it stop?'

[KSRBEvans]

I don't like the idea of steamrolling history when things are no longer popular or accepted by a certain group.

OTOH, I can easily see why a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, for example, would offend many and should have no place of honor in a public square.

I think I'd prefer to see the approach taken in Budapest with Communist statues. The statues aren't destroyed and are on display where the public can still view them.