Lord help me, but I think a post on the Trump/Charlottsville thing may be interesting

[CitizenBBN]

Trump has obviously been blasted, and I mean BLASTED, by the media and politicians on both sides for what is seen, right or wrong, as him not being hard enough on the Nazis/KKK b/c he said that there was violence and fault on "many sides" (that's the original wording).

People are now saying he'll have to resign, etc. I mean end of the world type stuff.

But here's what's interesting: most Americans per one poll actually agree with him on the issue.

You wouldn't know it if you watch the media, any media, even Fox, but a new SurveyMonkey poll shows some fascinating results. Now I don't know the methodology and thus I'm not saying this is gospel, but it is interesting.

surveymonkey.jpg,

It shows that while 46% of all Americans think the Right is "most responsible" (which is pretty loose in the wording), if you combine the other two that means that 49% think that either the far Left groups or BOTH are to blame, with "Both" at 40% and "Right" at 46%.

Among Republicans a whopping 64% think "pox on both their houses", both are equally to blame, and when you add "left" it means most people think either both or the left are to blame.

Among Independents, IMO the key metric, 51% think mostly the Right, but 46% think either the Left or both, not far from a dead heat.

For me, I think the right is MOSTLY to blame in this one clash, but I also think Trump is right that there is clearly plenty of violence and racism on both sides. All the dead cops this year I think would agree I have some strong evidence to support that position.

On a personal level I don't see how it's so evil to say what he said Satuday, which was to condemn all racism and violence. Seems like a pretty solid position to take, but apparently it's earth-shatteringly evil.

IMO i'ts only that evil if you already thought Trump was a white supremacist, in which case this was his way to take the heat off of them. But if any other President had said that I'm not sure we'd see this blowback, b/c as this poll shows his actual position, that there is violence and racism on both sides and neither is acceptable, seems to be a not unpopular position.

I just thought it was interesting how Trump perceptually is out there alone on this issue, when, if you set aside him and his possible leanings specifically, his actual position isn't really out of step with a lot of Americans, and certainly not conservatives.

[CitizenBBN]

Now let me add that I would like to see participation in this thread be respectful and sensitive. It's clear this is a "third rail" issue for many and I hope we can discuss it without namecalling, condescension, attacks, hurt feelings, etc.

If we can't I'll lock this and whack it. I have no desire to open a can of worms here. I just thought it was interesting to compare and contrast the poll numbers here with the perception of the situation in the media. I also think it's interesting in light of Trump's poll numbers overall, and I have a theory on that I'll share elsewhere.

[dan_bgblue]

Those that want to derail the current administration are just like hungry sharks in the water. They will attack anything they can and say anything that they think will advance their cause.

I do not trust poll numbers for anything about the current President, good or bad. The poll numbers you shared, look reasonable to me but that is probably because they sort of mirror they way I think, not because I really trust them to be honest.

[CitizenBBN]

Dan, I would consider Survey Monkey to be neutral from a political standpoint, but I still don't know the methodology of it. What was the criteria for the pool? Is there bias in there in the pool of people or respondent bias?

I can't speak to that, and I'm hoping more surveys come out on this subject, but internally the numbers at least make sense.

[CitizenBBN]

Re the shark thing, I agree, and it is made 10x worse from a media balance perspective that the GOP establishment dislikes Trump as much as the Democrats and media.

Some of that is of course deserved on his part. He walks right into these messes with guns and cheap shots blazing. It has alienated many in the GOP willing to at least be somewhat supportive, and he needs to grow up and behave better if he wants them to use any of their political chips for him.

Some he'll never please. Old guard guys like McCain and Graham are a waste of time, but there are some he could win over.

It would help him have some other voice out there, but not much. The media are going to come after him no matter what, and fire anyone on their payroll that gets in the way.

[Doc]

Unfortunately the media and left took Trump's words and interpreted them for their own use. I took his statement more general. Both sides bear responsibility IMO. The idea that Confederate Memorials be removed is wrong. For many the civil war was about states rights more than a single issue. Also when we start removing statues and memorials because some find them offensive, we are opening a can of worms. Many find the rainbow flags that the gay community fly as offensive. I'm sure many who follow the Islamic religion find the star of David offensive, etc. So do we now cow toe to those groups too?

Much of the criticism of Trump is his own fault. As you said, he comes out guns blazing so its no wonder he never gets the benefit. He is a terrible communicator, no way around that.

[kingcat]

I believe there is a reason why both political parties are condemning POTUS in this situation. And I honestly find it way too hard to believe he has good public support if much at all.

A huge mistake by the leader of the free world and one he wont come back from entirely. But that's just my opinion.

[UKHistory]

On my cell phone so the carpal tunnel and typos will abound

The ny times noted some counter protestors were armed and aggressive so that should be noted. Not all who stood opposed to the nazis and the kkk were 💯 % peaceful. None killed anyone and that too should be noted.

The protest results in one direct death, two state troopers in a chopper crash and possibly another from the tiki light march

Folks tried to appease nazis in the 1930s and it was not successful. So non violence I the face of nazis is not a proven successful move.

By noting the violence of both sides after the nazi or KKK guy killed a person is tone deaf.

Are people looking to twist trumps words? Maybe. But we don't have to try too hard.

I love the south and would probably vote to keep up most rebel monuments on a case by case basis.

If I felt moved to march for them I would not march my rebel battle flag with nazis

The peaceful protest Friday is not an accurate statement in any way.

We have the first amendment and the nazis can march but there every word is filled with hate.

I get the history of the lost cause and it nobility, states rights and how I can say heritage and not hate.

But I also can understand how blacks and other minorities see the flag and see hate. They have been raised on stories about the injustice. Some maybe a lot have experienced discrimination.

There ain't nothing good about the Klan. Nothing at all. And no doubt black want to fight a group that want them dead or subjugated

President trump, for worse. Struck a cord with these crazy white supremacists. Lots of decent folks voted for him but a lot nazis and kkk too.

Trump has empowered them. His first speech was too generic. The next time out he rattles off the terms but lacked any sincerity. Trump proved that when he said lots of nice people marched for the monuments.

I respect and used to love the battle flag. I won't stand by a nazi. And anyone who waves Dixie while goose stepping is betraying America.

The south was built on slavery. The north low wages for immigrants

But slavery was insidious and we have to recognize its evil.

The president is not articulate but he has either real memory issues or intentionally lies that he doesn't know David duke and is unwilling to disavow support of domestic terrorists

And there is a pint Obama would not say radical Islam. Trump is not quick to call this extreme group of supporters terrorists

Member of his cabinet apologised to their staffs Friday. Not all but some. None called the president out for his comments but they were far stronger in their condemnation of the nazis Thant trump

[dan_bgblue]

Would his comments have suited more folks if he had named the KKK AND Antifa as being the terrorists that caused all the strife at the event? I do not think he would have done proper justice with his comment if he just singled out one or the other. I also truly doubt that those were the only 2 groups getting into scuffles and shouting matches. His comments were proper even if the were generic. jmho

[UKHistory]

The white supremacists started this fight. And they killed a girl. And thankfully it was a white girl or else this would have been even worse

Condemning hate groups in general would be fine on its own.

This nazi and kkk guys came armed with weapons and shields.

He did not condemn the nazis enough the first go around and by the third time let folks know he didn't want to say a real word against them with sincerity

[UKHistory]

I want to clarify. I really believe had the nazis killed a black person then there would have been horrible retribution and the "violence on both sides" statement would be a hole lot more accurate.

That is not to say i disregard that girls death. We all agree how bad it was. And my opinion might come across as critical of Blacks which is. It my intent.

Clinton, W, and Obama have been polarising. I don't think there has ever been a president who has been so bad for the national unity of this country like trump.

Folks hated Clinton and Obama but trump hatred is on another level. I think Hillary would be the same.

And I'd expect a republican house to have already begun impeachment proceedings.

You might not think all of the hatred is warranted but we can agree this there is a lot

But having a national debate on race relations fuelled by confederate monuments is bad for the country.

[CitizenBBN]

The white supremacists started this fight. And they killed a girl. And thankfully it was a white girl or else this would have been even worse

Condemning hate groups in general would be fine on its own.

This nazi and kkk guys came armed with weapons and shields.

He did not condemn the nazis enough the first go around and by the third time let folks know he didn't want to say a real word against them with sincerity

The ACLU, observing the whole thing, tweeted that both sides came armed and there were apparently numerous scuffles and fights between extremists.

I'm not excusing the Nazis or the KKK, I hope they all take a long walk off a short pier and I don't know anyone who supports their cause.

But the Nazis and Klan aren't behind a near epidemic of police shootings, or the beatings we've seen in Berkley etc. There is in fact violence on both sides. Mostly from the right this last weekend, but TRump's comments specifically made it clear he was referencing years of violence from both sides in his comments. He said it's been going on a long time, and he's right.

Politically and otherwise b/c he's constantly accused of being a white supremacist he needs to disavow them more strongly, but the basic notion that violence is intolerable regardless of source is correct.

Politically he can be completely tone deaf, but he wasn't wrong about the situation overall, nor was he really wrong about this weekend. Counter protest groups did show up that were from extremist factions like BLM etc., they were apparently also armed, and even the ACLU said both sides were looking for a fight.

The Nazis, as despicable as they may be, have a right to these kinds of events. Had people given them a wide berth and let them march and ignore them they'd have done a lot more to damage their cause than to show up ready for a fight. I'm not blaming the response, but I have to wonder if the BLM held a rally and the KKK showed up to rumble and things went south and a BLM protestor ended up killing someone, would it be OK to only single out the BLM and leave the KKK out of the comments?

I think we only need look at the response to the murders of cops this past year and the Sanders volunteer trying to assassinate GOP leaders in cold blood to see that it is far less of a firestorm when the murder comes from a left wing lunatic instead of a right wing one. I just want them BOTH called out, and that's what this poll seems to reflect for a lot of Americans. They see that the extremists on both sides are just wrong.

The Nazis from what I know had a legal right to be there, defended by the ACLU in fact. The solution is to let them march without counter protests, and to do the same for the BLM. No matter who organizes one of these events, these two factions are going to both show up and have a fight. They want that fight, they hope for it.

I agree Trump needs to call out the alt-right more, but he's right the alt-left is far from blameless here.

[UKHistory]

I won't disagree about the counter march being ill advised.

The vice show recorded images of the counter protesters being the first to move towards a physical altercation

That has not. Sen said clearly.

But trump is not careful with his words and is not articulate. He was much better a few years ago than he is now.

But he really needs to try and alleviate the fears from the left. And the middle where I see myself.

both sides in Charlottesville came armed and while I am a big second amendment guy, carrying weapons to a protest is a recipe for disaster.

Great points about the aclu. I had not heard that. I remember the Skokie nazi march back in the 1970s. Ok he movie anyway.

The left Is less open to free speech than they would let on.

But president trump is certainly not the voice to promote peaceful dialogue.

Obama was arrogant enough to think he could but his lack of experience doomed him. Whatever racial or elitist backlash he got, the lacking experience in communicating with both leadership houses hurt his presidency immensely.

And trump is right to point out the wrong of both sides but then was not the time.

And every time he gets a tweet of gratitude from a kkk or nazi that is a problem for him. And the country.

[UKHistory]

Citizen

You made a comment about trump winning some republican establishment guys over.

One question who trump could win over. How do you win over republicans when you question McCains heroism after spending 7 years in a Pow camp. McCain evenrefused special treatment to leave early over men who had been captive longer.

That level of heroism should not be mocked. Trump lost me there. He threatens members of his own party. He publicly taunts democrats

And said ted cruz's father killed JFK and that teds wife is a 6.

Mocked Rubio's height. Good for school yard bullying. But not for leadership.

I wouldn't go near the white house if he said those thing to me. His every word seems to bring dishonour to the office.

Obama was too inexperienced and that is a key weakness of trump as well

At 71 he won't change. I only hope he will raise the debt ceiling or thin a could really be bad.

[CitizenBBN]

History, all that stuff from Trump was frowned on by everyone I know, even his biggest supporters.

IMO Trump thinks that sells to his base. it doesn't, not any of them. The Democrats lost b/c they forgot to talk about how to actually help people. Jobs, education, wages, etc. Trump talked about things like that more, but then he goes and steps all over his own message with that insulting playground nonsense.

I can't defend that stuff. I'm no fan of McCain as a Senator, and havent' been since the 80s when he was one of the Keating Five. He's as establishment as you can get and has made several really ethically questionable moves as Senator. But you can't deny his heroism as a soldier, absolutely not. That doesn't make him a good Senator, but Trump going off on that stuff is just absurd.

People didn't vote for him b/c of that part of his personality. They voted for him in spite of it, just as many voted for Hillary in spite of the fact they knew she was also truth and ethics challenged to say the least.

We had a really bad choice this election, IMO one of the worst in US Presidential history, maybe the very worst. Both had deep flaws, Trump just barely overcame his with some smart targeting of key states, and that was the difference.

what the poll numbers really show is that many Americans agree with his fundamental positions. Most Republicans, split 50/50ish with Independents and even about 25% or so of Democrats. But his overall approval is far lower, IMO a reflection of the fact that they agree with his overall positions but disagree with how he goes about trying to advance them. They object to his boorish, childish, petulant behavior, but the only other option is someone who doesn't agree with their positions. Tough place to be.

If he was a better communicator he could have condemned the Nazis while still making it clear that violence from the Leftist extreme re police etc. also had to stop. A well crafted statement would have left the media trying to attack him, but not with anything like this kind of success.

[CitizenBBN]

FWIW I think some of that may have actually served him in the primaries, b/c it got him tremendous media airtime. IMO the media on the left like MSNBC wanted to promote him b/c they saw it as making the GOP look bad. We know now that the Clinton people wanted Trump more than anyone as the opponent. I think trump used all that exposure to get his name and message out, and the negatives of his bad comments didn't hurt as much as the exposure helped.

But in the general election that wasn't the case, and as President it absolutely is not the case. He desperately needs to constrain himself.

Don't fake it, don't get away from the issues that got him there, just avoid the playground crap.

I doubt that would have helped him this week, he is the easiest man to bait I've ever seen, so it's asking too much for him to totally stay on message in a presser I suppose. But at least stop the personal insults, then work on the message thing.

[BigBluePappy]

" The white supremacists started this fight. And they killed a girl. And thankfully it was a white girl or else this would have been even worse"

I am just heartsick and I know that you did not mean it that way History, but the fact that ANYONE lost their life to is just so unbelievable, yet all too believable.

We are all equal in God's sight.
Revelation 7:9 says:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

[BigBluePappy]

I don't want the last post to come off as a personal attack on UKHistory, it's just the gravity of the situation, my friend.
Kind of caught me off guard if you would...

[UKHistory]

I don't want the last post to come off as a personal attack on UKHistory, it's just the gravity of the situation, my friend.
Kind of caught me off guard if you would...

I wish no one had died. Please know that. I do believe had a African American been killed at the hands of the klan or nazis, that race riots would have taken place across the country. So much anger out there.

God loves us all and we are equal. But the powder keg of race is billowing up something fierce. I just think we might have seen something occur nationally with a higher death toll.

That is my point. I do apologize to any who was offended.

[UKHistory]

FWIW I think some of that may have actually served him in the primaries, b/c it got him tremendous media airtime. IMO the media on the left like MSNBC wanted to promote him b/c they saw it as making the GOP look bad. We know now that the Clinton people wanted Trump more than anyone as the opponent. I think trump used all that exposure to get his name and message out, and the negatives of his bad comments didn't hurt as much as the exposure helped.

But in the general election that wasn't the case, and as President it absolutely is not the case. He desperately needs to constrain himself.

Don't fake it, don't get away from the issues that got him there, just avoid the playground crap.

I doubt that would have helped him this week, he is the easiest man to bait I've ever seen, so it's asking too much for him to totally stay on message in a presser I suppose. But at least stop the personal insults, then work on the message thing.

Primaries are all about going far right or far left. Too bad he couldn't find a middle road. Maybe he can.

[CitizenBBN]

I wish no one had died. Please know that. I do believe had a African American been killed at the hands of the klan or nazis, that race riots would have taken place across the country. So much anger out there.

God loves us all and we are equal. But the powder keg of race is billowing up something fierce. I just think we might have seen something occur nationally with a higher death toll.

That is my point. I do apologize to any who was offended.

I can see how it comes off uncomfortably to folks, but you're absolutely right. It's a cold hard fact. No way to get around it.

I think it also highlights part of the problem. When a BLM supporter gunned down 5 white cops there weren't riots over it. The Nazis are obviously evil, but they're also largely irrelevant. They've had these marches since the 70s at least, nothing has ever come of it. Let them march then the next weekend, removed from them, have the much larger march against them.

But what we have now is two factions both itching for a fight. Not completely unlike the battles in pre-Nazi Germany between the Nazis and the Communists, though numbers on both sides then were far far bigger. As a percentage of the population these two groups are meaningless. They only have the power we give them through media exposure.

[Catonahottinroof]

The only thing that makes these protests and skirmishes relevant for the most part is the media will cover it due to the salacious things that may happen.

[bigsky]

In the 1960s radical leftist like O's buddy Ayers set off bombs killing many people. The riots in Ferguson and other places incited by the left burned blocks of cities.

Nazis are despicable human beings and white supramacists too. The guy who killed that woman had been a total waste since middle school.

Unless there is a clear connection to the place, I'm okay with taking Civil War ststues down. I'd be angry is John Castleman was removed. His statue is much more Louisvilke than confederate.

Monument Ave in my old hometown needs to change.

My favorite Presidents are Washington and Jefferson. Both white, male, slave owning, fathers of our country who never acknowleged their white privilege. Come for their monuments at peril of your life. That will be a second civil war

[CitizenBBN]

My favorite Presidents are Washington and Jefferson. Both white, male, slave owning, fathers of our country who never acknowleged their white privilege. Come for their monuments at peril of your life. That will be a second civil war

Hopefully if that happens there will be one. As Jefferson said, we probably need one every now and again to wipe away the corruption and repression of an endlessly creeping state.

But they're coming for them. Better get ready.

[Doc]

I won't disagree about the counter march being ill advised.

I believe this was Trump loint whan he said both side. Of course the anti-Trumpites would never even consider that option, instead electing to conform every statement he makes into a utterance of hate because in their minds he is a mysogenistic racist covert Russian spy who hates the poor

[Doc]

In the 1960s radical leftist like O's buddy Ayers set off bombs killing many people. The riots in Ferguson and other places incited by the left burned blocks of cities.

Nazis are despicable human beings and white supramacists too. The guy who killed that woman had been a total waste since middle school.

Unless there is a clear connection to the place, I'm okay with taking Civil War ststues down. I'd be angry is John Castleman was removed. His statue is much more Louisvilke than confederate.

Monument Ave in my old hometown needs to change.

My favorite Presidents are Washington and Jefferson. Both white, male, slave owning, fathers of our country who never acknowleged their white privilege. Come for their monuments at peril of your life. That will be a second civil war

Unfortunately many want to erase history and anything that they can see as offensive. Personally i believe in the right to offend and be offended. IMO this is no different than burning the flag. But its almost to the point of saying lets ban the stars and stripes because some find that offensive.

[badrose]

I believe this was Trump loint whan he said both side. Of course the anti-Trumpites would never even consider that option, instead electing to conform every statement he makes into a utterance of hate because in their minds he is a mysogenistic racist covert Russian spy who hates the poor

I don't think they think that. I think they want others to think that. There's a $hit-ton of people who just can't get over losing in November. This effort started the day after and hasn't stopped.

[KeithKSR]

I believe there is a reason why both political parties are condemning POTUS in this situation. And I honestly find it way too hard to believe he has good public support if much at all.

A huge mistake by the leader of the free world and one he wont come back from entirely. But that's just my opinion.

The politicians are reacting to news reports, rather than what was said.

Trump condemned both the antifa anarchists and the neo-nazis. What is wrong with that? The antifa groupies were dressed in black and hitting people with bats. One of the neo-nazis ran over a girl with a car.

How can any reasonable person not condemn both. Both are hate groups, the media just happens to favor antifa.

[CitizenBBN]

Keith, honestly if Obama had said exactly the same thing nothing would have come of it at all.

The difference is people know Obama isn't pro-Nazi, but the media and a bunch on the liberal side of things, and even a lot in the GOP establishment, were already convinced that Trump is a racist Nazi fascist.

The thing is, I don't get why. I get why people don't like him, I get why people think he's unfit. I get that completely.

But other than his stance on things like immigration, which have pretty broad support among millions of Americans, he's done nothing to behave like a real fascist behaves. I think people may be confused about what constitutes "fascism".

Fascists want to shut down free speech, end dissent, force everyone onto their program and end the debate. That's the radical left these days, not Trump.

Trump is a Populist. A real one. A guy who picks the big issues and takes a real roots-oriented position on them whether that's all ideologically consisent or not, and promises to just get something done.

He's Teddy Roosevelt more than Hitler. Roosevelt was boisterous, even politically incorrect, a man who, when he created the Progressive Party (The Bull Moose Party is a much better name), ran against the establishment and corruption and big business - big government partnership.

As an aside, Roosevelt at that time seated the all white delegations from the south in that election and refused the all black ones from those states. Yet he was NOT a fascist.

Real fascism is what we see on college campuses, with the Antifa operating very much like the Brown Shirts of the Nazis. real fascism is smearing anyone who disagrees with you and attacking them and avoiding their argument by attacking their motives.

In the 1930s the National Socialists used the Jews and Communists as scapegoats, and anyone who disgreed with them was either branded a Communist themselves or a Jewish sympathizer. They used mobs of supporters to quash events and speakers who would oppose them, with threats of violence of course.

The group in modern American that looks the most like the Brown Shirts of the early Nazi movement aren't these Neo Nazis and KKK guys, it's Antifa, the BLM, etc. The truth is the KKK has ZERO traction politically, so they can't do anything to silence anyone. What speeches have been stopped by their protests? What ideas have they quashed? What politician have they threatened into silence?

But Antifa has shut down the communication of ideas. the KKK hasn't shown up at pro-gay speeches and burned things, but Antifa has done it over and over.

the KKK is doing what they've done forever. They get a permit, have a big rally with a few thousand people, they go home. I'm not condoning them but honestlly that's been the pattern for decades. It doesn't make it OK, but it's not any kind of actual political threat to the nation, and they really haven't organized to do much more than recruit other disaffected people who are lost souls.

Antifa and the rest of the radical left is OPENLY promoting violence as a solution, and aggressively going after events that they don't like, and successfully getting them shut down.

the comparison with historical behaviors of fascism are clear, but the group isn't who people claim it to be. It most certainly isn't Trump and his organization, which has only protested anti-Trump events and hasn't tried to shut anything down that I know of, just getting their side out.

This is largely b/c Trump is so viscerally hated by both sides. No doubt he's a bad speaker, he's an ass, he's got so many issues I don't know where to start, but it was the views going into this that shaped it.

And some of that is fair. I've said he should have been harder on the alt-right just b/c he needed to be given that perception, but then again I thought Obama needed to be WAY harder on the BLM than he was, but with the media he was going to get a complete pass on that issue. Their people gun down cops and he invites them to the WHite House to talk. If Trump invited David Duke to the White House to discuss this situation it might spark a 2nd Civil War.

[badrose]

Voters tend to agree with the president’s defense of historical statues, and few think getting rid of Confederate monuments will lessen racial tensions in America.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ez_track_aug21