http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...nap-story.html
The FBI strikes down the theory espoused by some liberals who do not wish to acknowledge the real reason behind the attack.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...nap-story.html
The FBI strikes down the theory espoused by some liberals who do not wish to acknowledge the real reason behind the attack.
I thought the "real reason" was because he had a gun
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
The investigation has not been completed. The term "so far" is used over and over in that article.
Also with regard to knocking down the testimony of the disguised "Miguel", the writer says investigators don't believe his testimony "according to one senior law enforcement official with access to the investigation"
That is not the official word from the FBI who continue to investigate.
Personally, it makes no difference to me what the result is, but this is not much more than an opinion piece
The article continues to say..
It is possible that Mateen might have had communications on cellphones or other electronic equipment that have not been recovered by investigators in the wake of the shooting.
Some of those who have claimed to be in contact with Mateen before the shooting continue to insist that the gunman seen in the photos released after the shooting is the same man who visited the nightclub before the shooting.
Kevin West, 29, a Navy veteran and Pulse regular, said Mateen messaged him on Jack’d and also said he recognized him entering the club on the night of the shooting. After the attack, West turned his phone and app passwords over to police and FBI investigators. He said Mateen didn’t reveal his name, but he recognized him from the photo Mateen had posted on the app, which matched one of the gunman released after the shooting.
On Thursday, he dismissed federal investigators’ doubts.
“No one is lying about him being on there,” West said of the gay apps, adding that “once you have the app and delete your profile, it’s gone.”
I do agree that this is journalistic propaganda.
Last edited by kingcat; 06-25-2016 at 08:14 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
If you think this wasn't an act of terrorism you're ignoring how modern terrorism works.
was he also gay or had issues with gays and was conflicted when his father an others we know he followed called for their death yet he may have been gay?? Well yeah, that's certainly possible, but it only proves the point.
Look, no sane person is going to strap a bomb to his back and go blow up a cafe, or grab a gun and go murder innocent people. for decades by definition terror movements of radical Islam and others have recruited people who are desperate, lost, confused or flat nuts to do their bidding.
What ISIS has done, along with other willing "imams" and others even based in the US, is spew this hate and evil in the hopes of finding recruits. It's no different than how white supremacists or other hate groups work, putting out their nonsense and attracting disaffected people who are over the edge.
So they found one. They did NOT direct him specifically, but they no doubt inspired him, along with a huge help from his father who is also nuts and a Taliban supporter.
If he is maybe that's why he fixated on that part of their message, but it was the very conflict created by this radical Islamic movement and the hate it preaches that caused the episode. But that's irrelevant to what we DO about it. B/c this isn't about telling parents to support their kids even if they come out, this is about shutting down the hate and evil and propaganda of the radical ISlamist movement, whether it ensnares a muslim man who is gay or someone who is just a lost soul.
They are getting normal white, Christian westerners to fly to Turkey and join ISIS, as well as getting Muslims to do so and to kill others in the name of this "faith". Stop that, b/c that's the threat.
what the FBI will find is that he may have had issues, but that he in the end was a man whose father supports the Taliban, who followed Imams in the US who call for the death of gays as well as many other people, who was disturbed and eventually became unhinged, and that people like his 2nd wife knew about it and did nothing.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Pitch it back in my lap you old debater..I don't mind.Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
Fact is, I never said that at all did I?.
I honestly don't know...and at this point neither does the FBI. I do know that what is important is for the families of these young people to see justice served and to not be used for political purposes by anyone.
Maybe he was both an Islamic extremist and gay. But for this article (using an unnamed source) to portray that the investigation was over and the man is not gay nor influenced by psychological issues related to it (if they did), is just as self serving and wrong as any other
. At the very least it was presented incorrectly here in this forum.
I maintain that, after reading the article, the FBI HAS NOT concluded that the Orlando shooter was not gay.
And I do believe he was a self inspired terrorist with personal issues. Whatever he is, I don't like it nor take any joy in it re-enforcing some political ideology or talking point
Last edited by kingcat; 06-25-2016 at 11:32 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
I do want to add that I have been completely out of the loop for the last few days. There may be other reports that say the FBI investigation has concluded.
I studied this article however and disagree with your summation of the same.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
In fact I agree w you, I don't think the FBI has concluded he's not gay, and never intended to infer otherwise so I'm sorry if I did. My point is that he can be the gayest man on Earth and it's still an act of terrorism. That fact only explains why he picked this particular target, but it doesn't change the fact that it was a terrorist act that is being specifically engineered by design by our enemies.
I really wasn't directing the "you" in my post at you, just the general you.
I do think it's interesting they haven't found any supporting evidence of his gay lifestyle to date, but it's not conclusive till they are done.
But I still see it as completely beside the point. If this was NOT an act of terrorism then neither was the shooting in San Bernadino, neither was the Boston bombing, etc. They are all exactly the same in their circumstances, only the details of where the anger was directed are different.
NONE Of them were specifically directed by some foreign leader, some spy handler who controlled them with secret communications. That is the face of modern terrorism. It's not supposed to be directed. ISIS is sending out well financed operatives to build terror cells that coordinate attacks, mostly in Europe, but they are also using modern marketing and social media to simply inspire individuals to go commit acts of terror in their name.
It's brilliant really. There's no way to find the operative b/c there isn't one. They are just finding disaffected lost souls on the internet and feeding them hate and a target for their despair.
But if we don't call that "terrorism" we're making a huge mistake in how we combat it. B/c we need to deal with their message, and if we just call this a hate crime of a confused gay man, or a gun issue, we totally miss the trigger that helped push him over the edge, the same one that has done it multiple times to others and will absolutely do it again.
So when we talk about what to "do", we can either start sending the FBI undercover to every gay bar in the country and try to find the people struggling with their status, or we can engage ISIS and its minions and try to shut down this message.
The alternative from the Left would be like trying to battle a neo-nazi movement by hanging out in poor white neighborhoods versus going after the organization doing the recruiting. It's utter nonsense.
ISIS has a specific, sophisticated, financed strategy to attract and inspire exactly this kind of person to do horrible things so they can take credit. We ignore that at our peril, and to their endless delight.
The fact that this one was having issues with gay people (and maybe it was b/c he was gay with a father who is calling for them to be murdered in the name of his god), and that the guy in San Bernadino may have had issues with his co-workers, or that the Boston bomber may have just been upset about family things, is in the end missing the point.
Narrowing down the suspect list by looking at every person struggling with their sexuality or their coworkers is a fruitless path, better to focus on who is consuming the ISIS inspired hate from social media as well as attending these radical mosques and speeches.
Last edited by CitizenBBN; 06-26-2016 at 11:01 AM.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I believe it impossible to fight terror in a free society.
And that the only way to prevent some attacks is by not giving them the publicity they desire.
Even Serial killers are suspected to be just that, yet are often not labeled such until there is no choice. Heck, to release all the info would destroy an investigation. And the gut reaction would be for the public to shoot first and then ask questions. Neighbors would eventually kill or injure each other.
And the more impact the more appealing it is to the killer.
The same applies here.
But as either side politicizes it to support an agenda, whether it be gun control or to further political aspirations and agendas, they in fact reward the entities who would take the credit.
Both sides do this, and it is a direct result of the corporate promoted division in this country to maintain the two party system, a left and a right, etc..
Neither side is right, and both sides complicit.
The only path to victory is for the misdirected attacks to stop...and polarization of the American public does not allow this. We have already lost this war and have only distinct and un American paths left as options to "peace and safety".
This is in fact a civil cold war. Our indignant response can't be aimed at an adjective with no country or land, so we in our naivety, aim it at each other. Mission accomplished.
When you sacrifice freedom for peace and safety, that's what you have. 9/11 accomplished that by the response of those in power at the time. United we could find our way back, but neither side wants this..now, .not even down to the voters themselves.
We're being grossly outsmarted and misled as a people, both sides. And it's not the government doing it.
Last edited by kingcat; 06-26-2016 at 12:01 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Well then we're doomed. B/c the chance of 49 people being murdered or the Boston marathon being bombed not making the news is pretty slim in a free society as well.
Of course we can fight terrorism. Hell, we know who the organizers are abroad and where they are, and we knew when their movement was in its infancy till now. We just did nothing about it.
I know you think we're all just sheep who really agree and we're turned against each other by some bigger force, but sadly I doubt it's the case.
I do think politicians on both sides foment the us versus them attitude for their own gain on a daily basis, and it does exacerbate the situation, and without it we could manage a lot more compromise, but it's also true that there are real and fundamental differences in how people want this nation to continue forward in history. We disagree fundamentally on the goals, the very reasons for our existence and our future.
For example, the fools over at Black Lives Matter have used this to argue that the real cause is capitalism and white supremacy. Seriously, they claim it's not radical Islam, but (like our President) they believe if not for Western imperialism and white domination that the rest of the world would all live in peace and happiness.
It's utter twaddle, which as you argue is used to turn people against each other. There I agree with you, but it's also still true that a lot of people in the US actually believe that nonsense, whereas a lot of us don't, and those differing views are so fundamentally opposed that just having the politicians go away won't solve everything.
I am very curious who is to blame if it's not government, since most of this is driven by politics and the desire to control the government. Is Big Business and Big Labor in on it? Yes, but that's all still politics.
The real answer is Libertarianism. All these groups are vying for power and influence, and will always do so as long as it can be done. The only answer is to NOT have that concentration of power at all, then there's simply nothing to fight over.
And it's ALL about government, b/c that's the power. Wall Street didn't give Hillary millions (or Bush or anyone else) b/c of her great speaking skills, it's bc they are buying access and influence, and they and all the others give generously to both sides in order to stay in power. But that's not a failure of capitalism, that's government not allowing capitalism to work. In capitalism there would be so few laws governing those markets that there would be no gain to spending money in washington b/c they'd do nothing to protect those companies from competition, and that's what they want.
Eliminate the concentration of power and most of this goes away. That was the brilliance of the Founder's design, and it's what we have long forgotten is the key to maintaining that freedom.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
When we were not daily influenced by Murdock and other corporate and political moguls this nation as a whole was patient and slow to pass judgement. Now we rush to attack our own at the very first opportunity because we are told to do so.
And no matter the severity of our accusations, if we are proven wrong there is no remorse and certainly no being held accountable.
So in an election year we now actually seem to run as hard as we can to the trough of biased media slop to get our supply of rhetorical half truths and lies. And are not ashamed to do so.
It wasn't like that when we grew up. This is all fairly new to our once great country and more reminiscent of how Nazi Germany was explained to me back in my school days..
Did President Bush and Dick Cheney orchestrate 9/11?..was Bill Clinton involved in a murder and subsequent cover up? Was John Kerry A traitor to his country or war hero as his subordinates verified. Was McCain actually a POW?
Or was President Obama a citizen of this country? .and on and on.. Questions certainly not directed at you but used to make a general point. The media, and especially those that serve one political party, usually cannot be believed. And until we hold such people accountable in some way, you are correct.
We have willingly lost the war against those who would subvert our freedom and way of life.
I'm fairly sure there are also good people involved with black lives matter and many other such organizations. And I have 100% confidence our president, at heart, is not the black militant, terrorist friendly, evil tyrant many like to portray him to be. Such generalities and often unfounded accusations are acceptable support for political talking points and debate.
And they certainly leave no room for any other perspective to be expressed. Thus the divisions are irreversible...job well done.
And I believe such sweeping and irrational judgement of what people feel and think, as groups and as individuals are the root of the problem.
Last edited by kingcat; 06-26-2016 at 03:01 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
I don't think Obama is a militant or supporter of terrorism. That's absurd.
But he most definitely is an American apologist, a person who believes this isn't a nation that is exceptional but rather a nation that is deeply flawed and the root cause of many of the world's ills. He has said so more than once. so has his wife for that matter. And hes' far from alone, most of the extreme left holds that view.
Murdoch isn't engineering anything, he's filling gap in the market. There are still a lot of conservatives in this land who are sick to death of the media bias that pervades the networks, Fox has stepped in to be the voice of the other side. Is it divisive? Only in that the division already exists and he's marketing to it.
Yes id' prefer all the channels be more "fair and balanced", but that seems unlikely, and in fact that's been the case throughout American history. Newspapers have long had their own political bent, long endorsing candidates and being slanted in their reporting. Fox versus NBC/CNN is no different than a century of the Washington Post v the Washington Times or a bunch of other examples.
Nothing there has changed a bit. If anything it's better than it was a century ago, when yellow journalism was at far more of a peak and men like Hurst controlled the message. Murdoch is nothing new at all, and his influence is far less than a man like Hurst b/c there are so many more avenues now for information.
It's arguable the Spanish American war was instigated in large part by the media. The influence of corporate media today isn't any greater now then it was then. Or any more biased.
Heck, the Federalist Acts were instituted when the nation was just born directly to deal with exactly the same thing, trying to suppress the media who was opposed to the Federalist point of view. This aspect of American life has been going on a long time.
Last edited by CitizenBBN; 06-26-2016 at 03:07 PM.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
On this we'll have to agree to disagree. I find it obviously an unprecedented phenomenon.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Another article, without the author's interpretation: http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...hooter-was-gay
If Mateen had a profile on one of those gay apps the FBI would have found some evidence of an electronic footprint. Nothing is ever completely deleted. Given the info that he was scouting out Disney World for a possible attack it seems more likely he was seeking a target where he could get the Paris type of impact.
That was before the Dems went so far left and began attacking anyone who disagreed with them by calling them racist, xenophobes, etc.
I think we're at one of the higher points of dissension, but my point is that has ebbed and flowed many times over American history.
we also agree that all parties involved use everything they can to play politics and rile up their interest groups.
I also think a majority of Americans are all pretty close on their politics, and are otherwise divided by parties and groups. where we may disagree (I really don't know) is I think that majority is a basically Libertarian.
But there is, even with all that agreement, a LOT of disagreement that is not created by smoke and mirrors but by a fundamentally different set of goals.
Obama for example is an adherent of social justice. The problem is that social justice is by definition at odds with those who believe individual liberty is paramount. There is no way to reconcile the two fully. You can reach some compromises, like having a social safety net mixed in with free markets, but in the end the two are charting very different paths and its impossible to truly put social justice first and reach a long term compromise with liberty, just as you cannot put liberty first and meet the full goals of social justice.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
One thing, if not the most important thing, about the mess we find ourselves in is that there are multiple opinions about every contentious point that faces us, and all sides try to out shout the other sides on all of them. This causes the citizens to take sides and when they adopt a side they scotch their feet and forget about what built this country, allowed all sides to have their say, and find room for compromise to arrive at a a common opinion and outcome.
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
That's an important observation. And could have saved me a lot of typing.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Its interesting that a Muslim man goes into a gay club where he shoots dozens of people and it takes the government weeks to determine why (gay man shooting gays, or gun violence or anything but terrorism by a radical religious sect that has vowed to kill the infidels)
but
a white kid goes into a black church in SC and shoots a bunch of people and it takes the government about 1 hour to determine its a hate crime against blacks.
When you have that type of discrepancy, is it any wonder why folks react in the manner they do?
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
As if this mattered. He stated on his 911 calls we were bombing his brothers (in Afghanistan).
He picked a soft target that gained him maximum exposure and the government still can't concede the real reason why.
That's a great point.
Great analogy.
To me to extend it in the SC case it would be like spending weeks discussing WHY he felt like he did, what drove him to it, whether he was abused or what made him turn to being a racist, etc.
Same with Orlando. I don't doubt there's stuff in his past and life that made him disaffected and ripe for radicalization, in fact I'd say it goes without saying that people who are radicalized have deep issues, and maybe him being gay was part of why he chose this particular target over Downtown Disney, but it's all just a nuanced bit of psychology about how terrorism works and recruits. It doesn't change the fact that it was terrorism.
This is all a debate about what DROVE him to become a terrorist, not whether or not he was one.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
the discrepancy could be explained by the type investigation which ensues in each unique situation. Just a guess.
It's possible the government might want to mislead any possible terrorist cell and try to bait them a bit.
I do find it hard to believe it's a democratic conspiracy and the government's investigation into the nightclub is a total farce.
Maybe I'm off base however and the two investigations would be handled the same. I know little about it myself.
Last edited by kingcat; 06-28-2016 at 07:16 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
In Orlando you have 911 recordings where the perp tells exactly why he is attacking unarmed citizens. It doesn't take much of an investigation to determine he was acting on behalf of radical Islam in this instance.
It's caused by active avoidance by the Obama administration to pin it on radical Islam.
Granted, Doc likely knows if the investigation is being manipulated or proceeding inappropriately. My bad.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Not a democratic conspiracy but rather a making the story fit the narative. Whether it Travon Martin or Henry Gates (beer summit), the administration will make it racial because racial inequity is a big part of their agenda. Likewise part of their agenda is not blame radical Islamic fanatics hence they deal with those incidents that involve Muslims in a different manner. I mean when Nidal Hassen shot up Fort Hood while screaming Allah Akbar, has the administration ever blamed any aspect of the Muslim religion? But a white cop in Ferguson, Missouri who shoots Micheal Brown while he is grabbing the officers gun is immediately described as a racial incident without any investigation. To me, that just seems inconsistant
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I'm not sure if that was a smart ass remark or not, but in actually it is an accurate statement. Certainly nothing bad about having an opinion or expressing that opinion
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
Not at all Doc. You know me better,
It's just that I understand your position and respect your feelings on the matter because of it.
Much more than any news report.
Last edited by kingcat; 06-29-2016 at 11:11 AM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Was the killer gay? Well, to quote a current POTUS candidate, 'at this point, what difference, if any, does it really make?'................if the guy was gay, well, okay. And if he wasn't gay, well, that's okay too. Whatever his true sexual preference was, it truly does not matter. Not in the least.
What does make a difference is the fact that he murdered a lot of innocent people for no good reason, and was talking to police dispatchers while he was doing it, claiming he was doing it in the name of his hateful deity and in the name of ISIS. And then we find out that this was a totally premeditated attack, and there was at least one other person who actually knew it was going to happen and yet did nothing to warn anyone of what was coming.
But the bone of contention is whether or not the dude was gay? Right! And this is what happens when you don't and won't call an act of terrorism what it really is, facts notwithstanding, of course.
The FBI & DHS & the POTUS and whoever else is involved are not doing their jobs, which is mandated by the Constitution to protect all American citizens from all enemies foreign & domestic. 1)it was a terrorist attack, and it is not more complicated than that, and 2)our government doesn't care and isn't going to do anything aside from throwing out unrelated talking points to lead us to believe that they're actually doing something when in fact anyone involved in this government entity could care less about protecting America.
MOLON LABE!
I have assumed all along that a part of the strategy for combating Islamic fundamentalists was to tread lightly on the Muslim religion and show as much rhetorical restraint as possible in hopes of fighting terror from within the religion as a whole.
I believe that is a sound strategy, although I may be incorrect in that assessment.
That is a war, whereas race issues are not. It can be no surprise that it is handled differently .
Yet I think what helps makes it suspicious, to those who are on high alert for any such variance (being politically motivated), is that for the first time ever we have a President who is Black. That is a natural occurrence however since he is not a conservative and there is a civil war going on between the two prominent political entities in our nation.
That war is sponsored by cable news media.
Last edited by kingcat; 06-29-2016 at 11:26 AM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
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