FBI concludes Orlando shooter not gay

[kingcat]

Just so everyone knows, I am not one who believed this was not motivated by the guys religion. I believe it was. The only reason I am here is to point out that the investigation was not over and there is no definitive answer to the guys sexual preference.

And as in the case of Travon Martin the admin has no problem speaking up quickly on perceived hate crimes be it racial or ones sexual orientation. I find a consistency both there, and also in how the war on terror is being handled.

We may not all agree with it but it is consistent. The government does not want to inspire copycats who have no direct involvement with terrorist groups, by legitimizing things like the Orlando bombing as successful attacks from a foreign enemy. If it can be avoided.

[Doc]

Not at all Doc. You know me better,

It's just that I understand your position and respect your feelings on the matter because of it.

Much more than any news report.

No problem. I misread then. My interpretation took me by surprise because it's not what I expected

[Doc]

Just so everyone knows, I am not one who believed this was not motivated by the guys religion. I believe it was. The only reason I am here is to point out that the investigation was not over and there is no definitive answer to the guys sexual preference.

And as in the case of Travon Martin the admin has no problem speaking up quickly on perceived hate crimes be it racial or ones sexual orientation. I find a consistency both there, and also in how the war on terror is being handled.

We may not all agree with it but it is consistent. The government does not want to inspire copycats who have no direct involvement with terrorist groups, by legitimizing things like the Orlando bombing as successful attacks from a foreign enemy. If it can be avoided.

Its anything but consistent. When a white person (or perceived white person in the case of George Zimmerman) has an act of violence upon an African American there is an ABSOLUTE RUSH to pin it one racial grounds. A college professor refuses to comply with the request of law enforcement in Cambridge Mass-its racial because the professor is black. Its not because the police are doing their job. A criminal in Ferguson MO attempts to take an officers gun and in the process gets shot, its because he is black, not because the he is a criminal attempting to get the gun. In the Travon Martin case, kid is shot because he is black. No other reason. All these were the administrations position within hours to days of the event. Yet when a Muslim commits a murder of any magnitude they look for any reason other than religion. An Army Colonel shoots up people in Fort Hood while yelling "Praise to God" in Arabic and its not a radical religious act. 4 Americans get murdered in our consulate in Bengahzi and its not a radical religious act but rather due to a video. So no, there is no consistency.

As for spawning copycats, if that is the purpose, ITS NOT WORKING!!! IMO what is says is the administration believes the American public is a bunch of idiots who will believe whatever they spin. Granted, some will but I hope most are smart enough to realize that despite the administrations claim, there have been terrorists attacks on the USA in the last 7 years.

[suncat05]

And once again, Doc is a rational, intelligent and articulate voice of reason.

[kingcat]

I do see a consistency. Instead of a racial incident, Orlando was because of sexual orientation, to some extent at least, and a similar "rush" to make that claim. For whatever reason.

And the hesitancy to claim terrorist activity, again for whatever reason, has been consistent.

Do I agree with handling terrorist activity in such a way? I don't know the motivation for it although I'm sure it exists. it may be a whacky reason, but it's not because our president is a terrorist sympathizer.

I think most here agree, that would not be a reasonable view

[Doc]

I do see a consistency. Instead of a racial incident, Orlando was because of sexual orientation, to some extent at least, and a similar "rush" to make that claim. For whatever reason.

And the hesitancy to claim terrorist activity, again for whatever reason, has been consistent.

Do I agree with handling terrorist activity in such a way? I don't know the motivation for it although I'm sure it exists. it may be a whacky reason, but it's not because our president is a terrorist sympathizer.

I think most here agree, that would not be a reasonable view

Don't believe most reasonable people believe Obama is a terrorist sympathizer. I personally believe it's not his highest priority. As an example, yesterday following the bombing in Turkey he gives a news conference were he spends 90 secs on that event the goes to "a lighter note" and talks about global warming. Some might say that he talked about the bombing first!.

But I also believe there are two additional factors in play. First is his legacy. He has no desire to have a "terrorist attack" take place on American soil while he is president. Being able to claim that no such events occurred is a big feather in his cap and a measure of his success. Instead we call it "gun violence" or "workplace violence" then pin it on the opposition as obstructing his gun policy. Politically it's a win:win situation. Of course because you don't call it a terrorist attack doesn't mean it wasn't one and most Americans realise this.

Second is the concern for stereotyping all Muslims as evil or terrorist. IMO this gives very little credit to the intelligence of the people of this country. However I do understand the sentiment but there is a huge caveat. He does not seem to share the same concern for stereotyping of whites. He never has an issue or concern when it comes to white on black events and will use them to further his agenda. IMO the actions of the administration have led to the deaths of several police officers because of their willingness to throw police offices and white ones in particular under the bus. Are their bad police officers? Yes. Are there white racial bigots? Yes. And are there radical Muslims? Yes. But this administration is quick to identify 2 of the 3 but has a great aversion to recognize one of them. That is inconsistent

[KeithKSR]

Obama has an innate bias when it comes to Muslims. He attended primary school in Jakarta with Muslims, studied the Koran in Koranic studies classes, attended a Mosque, etc. Prior to going to the school in Jakarta he attended a Catholic school in first through third grades, where his registration information indicates he was of the Muslim Faith.

I think Obama feels that attaching the radical Islam tag to these terrorists somehow denigrates much more peaceful Muslims. On the other hand he says he is a practicing Christian, but had no qualms blaming current Christians for the Crusades; not to mention lambasting Americans over Bibles and guns during the '08 campaign.

[Doc]

[suncat05]

He may not be a terrorist sympathizer, but there is no doubt from my perspective that he is squarely in the "Muslim sympathizer" corner 100% of the time. And his actions over the last 7+ years do nothing to make me believe anything else.
And he doesn't see or share our American values because he spent most of his younger formative years living in other countries and being indoctrinated in their belief systems. And while that isn't necessarily a bad thing, his overall world view opposes an American world view more often than not. Throw in that all of his familial contacts were either Communist/socialist in nature, and the fact that his maternal grandfather introduced him to an avowed Communist to be "mentored" in his teenage years, it then becomes very easy to see 'why' he acts the way he does and says the things he says.
He may be an American by birth, but his view of the world is not American in any form. I will be glad when this guy is no longer in office and lecturing Americans about what our values are. This guy doesn't know what "real American values" really are.

[KeithKSR]

What seems lost on the media when touting a large number of these terrorists are Americans is that their parents were immigrants and the families did not assimilate.

[CitizenBBN]

What seems lost on the media when touting a large number of these terrorists are Americans is that their parents were immigrants and the families did not assimilate.

This last one certainly didnt'. Dad is a vocal supporter of the Afghani Taliban and considers himself a leader in absentia in that country. So not only did they not assimilate, he's also crazy.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

This guy doesn't know what "real American values" really are.

What ARE "real American values"?

I was born, raised and schooled in Kentucky, lived the past 20 years in Chicago, and I think Obama has a firm grasp of what "real American values" are, at least what I consider to be so.

My view of American values, are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, regardless of ethnicity, religion or viewpoints. All people are created equal and deserve equal rights. We should strive to help those less fortunate and to empathize with those aren't so fortunate.

Obama embodies all of that.

[CitizenBBN]

What ARE "real American values"?

I was born, raised and schooled in Kentucky, lived the past 20 years in Chicago, and I think Obama has a firm grasp of what "real American values" are, at least what I consider to be so.

My view of American values, are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, regardless of ethnicity, religion or viewpoints. All people are created equal and deserve equal rights. We should strive to help those less fortunate and to empathize with those aren't so fortunate.

Obama embodies all of that.

Except for the liberty part, or the pursuit of happiness part (which is really pursuit of property but both are about pursuing one's own path in life which he clearly doesn't care for), and the part about including all viewpoints.

Obama is a true believer in social justice, and social justice is mutually exclusive with individual liberty.

he's also an American Apologist, who sees America in largely negative terms both domestically and in our foreign affairs.

"American values" do include liberty, specifically individual liberty. Obama doesn't even want to give you the liberty to manage your own health, much less anything else. The last thing he's for is liberty, b/c liberty leads to differences in economic outcomes and social justice is all about leveling those outcomes. "You didn't build that" is a wonderful glimpse into his view of the VERY American value of entrepreneurism. He sees it as just another exploitation of the workers, b/c anyone who rises to wealth must have done so through exploitation, not through their own ability and hard work.

They also include self reliance, a big part of liberty. he's actually proud of addicting millions of americans to the Government Teet of welfare and food stamps, and has done nothing to actually help anyone BECOME self reliant and successful on their own, building a better life for themselves. All he's done is make people more comfortable in their poverty and addiction.

then there is the part about "helping those less fortunate". Go tell that to the people of Iraq and Syria and Libya who he let go to complete hell through inability to follow another American value: peace through strength.

A core American value is in fact American Exceptionalism, that we are gifted with a unique place in history and a unique responsibility. we don't always live up to it, but it is the goal to which we strive. Obama believes we're no different from anyone else, and in fact worse in many respects, which is why the drive to transform us into just another nation of the rule of men and governments instead of the pursuit of our own liberty and life without interference.

I agree with your basic summary of our values, at least the words. But what those words MEAN can be twisted many ways, the same way social justice adherents twist "liberty" to focus on equality of outcome.

But Obama doesn't truly understand those words, and to the extent he does he disagrees with them. His equal respect for "all viewpoints" was shown to be false when he talked about fools like us "clinging to our guns and religion". Not exactly the words of man who values all viewpoints are they?

I know none of this will persuade you, or anyone else, and that the nation is likely lost. All good things must come to an end, but I plan on going down with the ship proclaiming the truth of our Great Experiment no matter how many have lost perspective on the road we are traveling as a people.

[kingcat]

One statement of opinion and then I'll back out of this thread for good. It's just too daunting of a task to word things in ways that don't offend our conservative readers which dominate this forum.

I believe that without many social programs, like food stamps and social security the country would have crumbled long ago. When wealth turns to power, power seeks more wealth, and the long term result is never freedom unless there is revolution and a redistribution of wealth.

'Trickle down' is still the myth it always was.

[badrose]

One statement of opinion and then I'll back out of this thread for good. It's just too daunting of a task to word things in ways that don't offend our conservative readers which dominate this forum.

I believe that without many social programs, like food stamps and social security the country would have crumbled long ago. When wealth turns to power, power seeks more wealth, and the long term result is never freedom unless there is revolution and a redistribution of wealth.

'Trickle down' is still the myth it always was.

Isn't that Hillary in a nutshell, (except for the redistribution part)? Redistribution ensures a status quo at the lowest level in society.

[suncat05]

CBBN sees this in the same light I do, and I concur with his thoughts, and I agree with his last statement too.
It is my right to make my own choices in my life. It is my right to live as I choose to live. And if God is willing, perhaps I'll get to die in my sleep at home in my bed with my wife beside me. MY CHOICE.
I don't believe in the bullyang you call "social justice". All that is is an excuse for people to not work and strive towards their own independence, to accept whatever the damn government allows them to have, and that in turn locks them into a life of poverty with no choices as to how to get out.
I'm not going to be a slave. Ever. And when they try to make me live like that, I will go off the reservation. And shame on them if they're stupid enough to try and reel me in.

[CitizenBBN]

One statement of opinion and then I'll back out of this thread for good. It's just too daunting of a task to word things in ways that don't offend our conservative readers which dominate this forum.

I believe that without many social programs, like food stamps and social security the country would have crumbled long ago. When wealth turns to power, power seeks more wealth, and the long term result is never freedom unless there is revolution and a redistribution of wealth.

'Trickle down' is still the myth it always was.

Social programs are fine when they are used as originally intended as a helping hand to lift people up. I'm all for them in that capacity.

But they've been turned into nothing more than the mechanism of creating a permanent underclass. When six generations are now seen in public housing we know we've failed, but the stunning outcome is that the left doesn't see if as failure but now argues is some kind of unique culture to be preserved.

Yes we need food stamps, but when the program explodes we should see it as a failure to provide jobs and education and opportunity, as a warning sign people are stuck and suffering.

Obama and his ilk see it as success. Bc the idea they are strangling the economy and preventing prosperity and creating and maintaining generational poverty is beyond their understanding.

They're doomimg millions to a life of dependence and poverty.

[KeithKSR]

One statement of opinion and then I'll back out of this thread for good. It's just too daunting of a task to word things in ways that don't offend our conservative readers which dominate this forum.

I believe that without many social programs, like food stamps and social security the country would have crumbled long ago. When wealth turns to power, power seeks more wealth, and the long term result is never freedom unless there is revolution and a redistribution of wealth.

'Trickle down' is still the myth it always was.

That is communist doctrine, American values definitely do not reflect communist doctrine.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Except for the liberty part, or the pursuit of happiness part (which is really pursuit of property but both are about pursuing one's own path in life which he clearly doesn't care for), and the part about including all viewpoints.

Obama is a true believer in social justice, and social justice is mutually exclusive with individual liberty.

he's also an American Apologist, who sees America in largely negative terms both domestically and in our foreign affairs.

"American values" do include liberty, specifically individual liberty. Obama doesn't even want to give you the liberty to manage your own health, much less anything else. The last thing he's for is liberty, b/c liberty leads to differences in economic outcomes and social justice is all about leveling those outcomes. "You didn't build that" is a wonderful glimpse into his view of the VERY American value of entrepreneurism. He sees it as just another exploitation of the workers, b/c anyone who rises to wealth must have done so through exploitation, not through their own ability and hard work.

They also include self reliance, a big part of liberty. he's actually proud of addicting millions of americans to the Government Teet of welfare and food stamps, and has done nothing to actually help anyone BECOME self reliant and successful on their own, building a better life for themselves. All he's done is make people more comfortable in their poverty and addiction.

then there is the part about "helping those less fortunate". Go tell that to the people of Iraq and Syria and Libya who he let go to complete hell through inability to follow another American value: peace through strength.

A core American value is in fact American Exceptionalism, that we are gifted with a unique place in history and a unique responsibility. we don't always live up to it, but it is the goal to which we strive. Obama believes we're no different from anyone else, and in fact worse in many respects, which is why the drive to transform us into just another nation of the rule of men and governments instead of the pursuit of our own liberty and life without interference.

I agree with your basic summary of our values, at least the words. But what those words MEAN can be twisted many ways, the same way social justice adherents twist "liberty" to focus on equality of outcome.

But Obama doesn't truly understand those words, and to the extent he does he disagrees with them. His equal respect for "all viewpoints" was shown to be false when he talked about fools like us "clinging to our guns and religion". Not exactly the words of man who values all viewpoints are they?

I know none of this will persuade you, or anyone else, and that the nation is likely lost. All good things must come to an end, but I plan on going down with the ship proclaiming the truth of our Great Experiment no matter how many have lost perspective on the road we are traveling as a people.

You're right. I vehemently disagree with everything that you said. That's your opinion, though, and that's fine. I can list bullet after bullet of evidence to show flaws in your theory, but I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or persuade.

I asked a simple question what are American values.

Honestly, whether I agree with one's political leanings or ideologies, I have never thought that someone seeking the office of President hasn't had a true love of America and it's values, that is until Trump.

I think what Obama has done that has really upset so many people, and what has brought Trump to such a popularity, is that he's given a voice to people that have not had one, or at least not one that has been loud enough, and that there's a perception that those voices should be louder than the voices that have dominated the history of our nation, and those people feel anywhere from slighted to hated.

What it says to me, and what the true definition of "Make America Great Again", is that we are only a great nation when those that have historically had the power, the voice are the ones that are in control. Where minority voice and rights are once again silenced.

So, this is basically what I'm seeking. What are these American values? What Makes America Great Again? I keep asking these questions to different groups and it all comes back to the same thing.

[CitizenBBN]

I laid out exactly what defines American Values from the standpoint of the founding of the nation and the reasons' we aren't part of the United Kingdom.

what voice has Obama given to anyone? Seriously, what action has he taken that has given a voice or power or anything to anyone different? The battle over bathroom use and wedding cakes? that's all he's got to show for it?

I laid out exactly why many dislike Obama's direction and vision of this nation, and it has nothing to do with who has power, and everything to do with the subversion of individual liberty and the free market in the name of the equality of outcomes as defined by the social justice school of thought.

If Obama had actually managed to help anyone in the last 8 years I'd see the reason for defending him, but since he hasn't I'm somewhat befuddled. Has he expanded economic opportunities for the poor? Nope, there are now more small businesses closing than opening for the first time in recorded American history. Has he expanded jobs? nope, the welfare roles there to help people who aren't working are more full than ever. Has he made us safer? Not even close.

So what he heck has he done? Obamacare hasn't gotten more care for people than we already had with the already expanding roles of Medicare and Medicaid, he's done nothing more on that front than even Bush II and the GOP did when they expanded it the last time.

What makes America great? Free minds and free markets. That means individual liberty, the end of the politically correct neo-Nazis who want conformance b/c they know best how everyone should live their lives, the reduction of the endless government red tape that is strangling the last of our nation's economy. Let's start with those things, that's more than can be accomplished anyway.

[kingcat]

That is communist doctrine, American values definitely do not reflect communist doctrine.

That's not a communist doctrine at all. I've heard it said before however.
Still, those two words only apply as a simplistic corporate battle cry to avoid dealing with the average joes and the poor in this country.

It's not relative to our nation at all. When our votes don't count, free speech is trampled on, and our religious freedoms are suppressed, then it may apply.

Freedom is only achieved if everyone benefits from it. And my point is not that the government needs to redistribute wealth, it's that it historically does so on it's own one way or the other.

Incorporating social benefits into a democratic system is not only the Christian thing to do, it is also the only way to maintain freedom for everyone without suppressing liberty. This country has adapted over its short life span to care for it's citizens.

If the people need to eat, you bust open the storehouse doors and let them.
Those are real Biblical values. The love of money however, is the root of all evil...and causes voluntary blindness to that fact.

I should have added to my earlier comment (below)..

When wealth turns to power, power seeks more wealth, and the long term result is never freedom unless there is revolution and a redistribution of wealth, or the suppression of civil liberty.
Social programs within a free society are the key to avoiding that inevitable fact.

[badrose]

The Bible is full of verses regarding slothfulness and work.

Ecclesiastes 9:9b-10 “in your toil at which you toil under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.”

Colossians 3:23-24 “Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.”

Proverbs 12:11 “Whoever works his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows worthless pursuits lacks sense.”

Second Thessalonians 3:10-12 “For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.”

“Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ” (Colossians 3:23-24).

(Proverbs 12:24) Diligent hands will rule, but laziness ends in forced labor.

I worked for a company that allowed me to volunteer for a Lunch Buddy program at a local elementary school for unfortunate kids. I ended up with two kids in kindergarten, one of which was his mother's 7th. She was 27. He was a beautiful child, sweet, could run like a deer, and his teeth were rotted to the gums. His mother's income was based on her number of kids. You can guess where her money came from. You know good and well there are thousands and thousands just like her.

I have more to say here but I gotta get ready for work.

[kingcat]

The abuse of social programs and charitable giving is a major problem we all agree. But charity doesn't stop because of it. It is it's own reward.
And there are many programs I disagree with and fail to see the logic in. I'm certain there is an argument for and against such programs, but the wrong people are doing the arguing.

Ask the poor, the hungry, and the people who pay their taxes leaving them with $250 or 300.00 a week to live on.

I know many poor people and grew up poor myself. They work harder by far on average than the wealthy and middle class. And still need help.
Babys floating in the bathwater so to speak.

Education is the key to avoiding poverty and struggle in most cases, although unforeseen thing's happen to people at inopportune times in their lives. Life is not an even road with equal and shared opportunities. That's what we must remember.

I do believe that except for the elderly and disabled, people should be required to attempt escaping their situation.
But on the other hand, monitoring each case individually might be more expensive than the various social programs themselves. I dunno'

One other thought. It seems to me there is a problem in this country with the definition of work which must be eventually addressed. Sweat and physical strain is not of proper value or respected anymore unless you are a millionaire athlete. Non physical jobs are on average better paying.
And then carrots that are being grabbed up by those who often have never worked a real job in their life are paraded in front of the country every day by TV and in print.
The only chance of grabbing their own carrot is by winning the lottery. And ten bucks an hour don't go very far these days.
That's the reality much of the nation faces each day when they wake. So when they hit a rough spot in life, they deserve help from the greatest and most charitable nation to ever grace this planet. They need a safety net and our government via tax dollars should and does supply that.
Hard work and sweat made this country great but is honestly looked down upon anymore.

And when a man leaves a woman with three or four children for whatever reason, if he can't be forced to make it right, we must help that family even more than we are. If not, they will make poor decisions trying to survive and/or improve their situation. And those poor decisions will cost the government even more in the long run.

It's terribly expensive being the most caring and giving nation this earth has ever seen. But the caring heart of America IS our strength. I hope we never lose that. God gave us plenty because of it.

[KeithKSR]

The government "safety net" is a corrupt institution that lines the pockets of the bureaucrats.

[Doc]

The thing I love (sarcasm) is the idea that consevatives or republicans don't support socials programs. Between that and our undeniable desire to destroy the environment, we really are heartless dispickable pig. Heck, why don't we kill some babies too-- oh sorry, that's what democrats do.

What I'm tired of is the effort to recruit people into the government teat at my expense. But rather than help people, their idea is to support them. That's what make me mad. They (government in general) has made it beneficial to be unemployed where it isn't a safety net. When people don't look for jobs or turn them down because.living off uncle Sam is more benefical, then their is a problem. When the unemployed look at any job as a stigma, there is a problem.

[kingcat]

The thing I love (sarcasm) is the idea that consevatives or republicans don't support socials programs. Between that and our undeniable desire to destroy the environment, we really are heartless dispickable pig. Heck, why don't we kill some babies too-- oh sorry, that's what democrats do.

What I'm tired of is the effort to recruit people into the government teat at my expense. But rather than help people, their idea is to support them. That's what make me mad. They (government in general) has made it beneficial to be unemployed where it isn't a safety net. When people don't look for jobs or turn them down because.living off uncle Sam is more benefical, then their is a problem. When the unemployed look at any job as a stigma, there is a problem.

Nothing I disagree with there Doc. And I have no such ideas, yet I am left seemingly defending those programs. Ands I don't understands why??


Just try stating a fact about the inherent dangers of a free market society that totally ignores the poor being doomed and then be labeled as touting a communist line. ( And I did understand Keith's point wasn't intended to offend)

There are huge problems within and without the system, and many who exploit and abuse such social initiatives. Political affiliations have little to do with it.

It's the state of society as a whole to look out for #1 no matter who or what it hurts