Gun Laws

[CitizenBBN]

I'll play Devil's advocate a little bit:


Age requirement - Make it 25 or older to buy an automatic weapon (Will get male's past the "mental disorder" stage). Or must be a legal gun owner for 5 years to buy an automatic? You can hunt with a single shot, pump, etc...

Longer wait time - Might give someone time to process their crazy thoughts

My question here is if by automatic we mean any semi-auto, including handguns.

B.c the problem there is that for self defense that is the most popular option, and the age is already at 21. Have any of these shootings been committed by someone aged 22-24? If not then there's no reason IMO to up the age limit.

Better screening is for sure good, but it is tough. The industry has tried to get better mental health reporting, but you have to go state by state b/c most such judicial proceedings are state based (if not all of them) and each state has different rules and procedures.

For example the shooting in Louisiana was committed by a guy who was ruled mentally incompetent in Georgia, but they never filed the county records with the state and those never got put in the federal database anyway.

Obama could get behind the industry push on this and it would already have been done, but he refused. THAT is the real story of gun control in this country. it's true the pro gun forces are against some changes b/c they fear it's a step on a slippery slope, but it's also true on the left that they wont' support some gun law changes b/c they may actually help and that would take the pressure off the push to go further with gun control.

[KSRBEvans]

To the extent this topic is a reaction to the Orlando shooting, it's a non sequitur IMHO. You could implement the most draconian gun rules and someone like this is still going to commit this act of terrorism (and that's what it was). He's either going to get guns illegally or he'll use another method like the one used at the Boston Marathon.

There's a place to discuss gun laws but IMHO it's misplaced if it's seen as a solution to future terrorist attacks.

[CitizenBBN]

To the extent this topic is a reaction to the Orlando shooting, it's a non sequitur IMHO. You could implement the most draconian gun rules and someone like this is still going to commit this act of terrorism (and that's what it was). He's either going to get guns illegally or he'll use another method like the one used at the Boston Marathon.

There's a place to discuss gun laws but IMHO it's misplaced if it's seen as a solution to future terrorist attacks.

It's completely misplaced, but you'll never convince the anti-gun movement.

They have a fundamental flaw in their thinking, one that pervades liberalism in general: they think that just b/c we pass a law, everyone will obey the law and it will magically be enforced perfectly.

What they dont' want to question is whether a given law will actually work or if there are too many substitutes, too many ways around it.

FWIW sometimes conservatives exhibit the same wishful thinking, for example in drug laws or Prohibition.

Good policy is largely about examining not the law, but the ability of the law to solve the problem. People forget that in a rush to "do something".

In fact, pretty much every gun law since the 1930s has been largely in response to mass shootings, and here we are with the same problem and a heap more laws. that ought to tell us that it's not enough for laws to sound like they will work, but to examine if they will.

[Doc]

I'll play Devil's advocate a little bit:


Age requirement - Make it 25 or older to buy an automatic weapon (Will get male's past the "mental disorder" stage). Or must be a legal gun owner for 5 years to buy an automatic? You can hunt with a single shot, pump, etc... Good idea IMO.

Longer wait time - Might give someone time to process their crazy thoughts I doubt that matters. Current wait times are adequate. I don't believe there are any 'rash" killings where longer waits would have made any difference.

More in depth background check - Not sure what this would include but maybe....eliminate anyone that has been treated for certain disorders, anyone questioned to be tied to any hate group, any violent crime (are all violent crimes felonies?) Maybe a background check that has minor flags and that temporarily prevents you from buying a gun? Who defines "hate groups"? Given the opportunity, I believe Obama would classify the GOP as a hate group. An no, I'm not joking. Anybody who disagrees with the liberal agenda is evil in his mind. He has said as much.

Training - take some course to buy certain guns, passing the course determines if you can buy a gun or not of a certain style. So now only smart people can buy a gun? Don't get me wrong, I'd be in favor of that. Of course I'd put the same standard on voting.


To me, some of this may address the mental health issue. Again, I don't really like some of these, but if they save one life? Also, I know the bad guys can still get guns if they want or use other means to kill. But that doesn't mean that we don't need to modify the law. Just don't modify it in a way that prevents me from buying a gun I'm opposed to the government having access to my medical records for a multitude of reasons. But mostly I don't see any effective way of mentally checking gun own applicants. Its not like taking an eye test.


OT from this post: I mostly do not like that they target AR Style weapons as dangerous. You can do a lot of damage with a pump shotgun. So the first time some one uses a shotgun, we will ban them? I can get a handful of shots off pretty quick with a single shot.

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[KentuckyWildcat]

My question here is if by automatic we mean any semi-auto, including handguns.

Yes b/c I think that is theit intent.


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[KeithKSR]

Just in case you were addressing someone else, I haven't mentioned age requirements...

(I'm enjoying the discussion, though. I'm really curious on what laws people think will have an impact.)

Sorry, that was Doc who mentioned age requirements. Not sure why I did that.

[KeithKSR]

Age requirement - Make it 25 or older to buy an automatic weapon (Will get male's past the "mental disorder" stage). Or must be a legal gun owner for 5 years to buy an automatic?

That would meaning loosening current restrictions on automatic weapons.

[KentuckyWildcat]

That would meaning loosening current restrictions on automatic weapons.

What are the current laws? I thought you only had to be 18, is not so?

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[KeithKSR]

What are the current laws? I thought you only had to be 18, is not so?

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To purchase an automatic weapon you have to jump through a myriad of ATF requirements, pay an annual tax, or have an FFL license that allows for their possession.

Automatics manufactured after 1986 are completely banned from private ownership.

If you are discussing semi-automatics, then they are in the same category as other weapons. Semi-automatics are no more or less lethal than other actions.

[KeithKSR]

What are the current laws? I thought you only had to be 18, is not so?

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To purchase an automatic weapon you have to jump through a myriad of ATF requirements, pay an annual tax, or have an FFL license that allows for their possession.

Automatics manufactured after 1986 are completely banned from private ownership.

If you are discussing semi-automatics, then they are in the same category as other weapons. Semi-automatics are no more or less lethal than other actions.

[suncat05]

While I am NOT in favor of limiting due process to anyone, there clearly are some people who are not entitled to such protections, like foreign nationals who are here on expired visas of any sort. They are not American citizens and should not be granted the same Constitutional protections as American citizens.
I know there are some here that will vehemently disagree with me, but my thoughts are based in actual situations that I have encountered over many years in this job. If you ARE NOT AN AMERICAN, you should not be given American Constitutional protections.
If Congress should somehow come to some kind of consensus about how to keep firearms out of the hands
of foreign nationals who are not in compliance with our laws, one thing that must absolutely be done in this circumstance is to keep this as a stand alone bill. No other legislation attached to it. But, they won't do that, and that is where it will go sideways.
These people in Congress need to step up and start protecting us. But they won't. Wait and watch.

[dan_bgblue]

Australia, 20 years later

[CitizenBBN]

Australia, 20 years later

Buried deep in the study:

While there was a more rapid decline in firearm deaths from 1997 to 2013 compared to before 1997, there was also a greater acceleration in the decline in total nonfirearm suicide and homicide deaths. Because of this, it is not possible to determine whether the change in firearm deaths can be attributed to gun law reforms.

so basically suicides and homicides dropped for both firearm and non-firearm categories, with non-firearm categories actually falling faster despite a massive gun ban.

Are we sure this supports gun bans?

I have no doubt that if we round up every gun and melt it down that there would be fewer gun deaths, I think that's kinda obvious. Not sure that's really a revelation. But the full study has to look at a lot of other factors including rates of robbery and other crimes, how many people got assaulted and couldn't defend themselves, non-gun acts of mass violence, etc.

The biggest problem of course is that Australia isn't the US. it has a tiny population for its size, lacks the global presence to have attracted terrorists, drug use and overall crime, doesn't have a huge open border with murderous gangs and drugs pouring across, etc.

Australia is deeply socialist and just not a whole lot like the US. They have some of the same issues, but a whole lot more differences.

They rounded up all handguns as well as anything but single shot rifles and shotguns. yes if we did that in the US I have no doubt the number of firearms related deaths would go down. I'm not convinced it would impact the suicide rate (and this study doesn't show that it did), and while it would probably reduce the murder rate it would also leave Americans defenseless in the face of crime and it's not at all clear that crime wouldn't go through the roof.

This is just a different country. Not the least of our problems is that there's no gun registry and there are 300 million guns in the US, but even if we could magically get them all I think the cost is still way too high in both freedom and our ability to prevent tyranny.

Our nation was founded NOT to provide security but to provide liberty, and the Founders knew full well that was the tradeoff, and spoke of it several times. Our focus is on liberty and on protecting ourselves from those who would take it, not creating more security by taking away all our liberty.

[ukblue]

Every time a terrorist commits a act of terror Obama uses it to take more rights from American citizens. God forbid someone blows up D.C. We will have to use chopsticks to eat because he will take knives and forks. As far as more gun laws ask the Israelis how effective they have been keeping guns away from Muslims.

[KeithKSR]

Every time a terrorist commits a act of terror Obama uses it to take more rights from American citizens. God forbid someone blows up D.C. We will have to use chopsticks to eat because he will take knives and forks. As far as more gun laws ask the Israelis how effective they have been keeping guns away from Muslims.

Or Paris where terrorists used full auto weapons to attack unarmed citizens.

[suncat05]

I keep telling you guys that we are pretty much on our own as far as protecting ourselves and our families from this nonsense, because it is very obvious that our current administration has no desire to live up to its Constitutionally mandated duties to protect us against any acts of terrorism, foreign or domestic in origin.

Our government doesn't care about any of us "little folks". All the government and our elected officials cate about is lining their pockets with special interest cash and getting reelected so their gravy train doesn't dry up.

[dan_bgblue]

Hawaii new legislation.....Coming to a state near you?

[CitizenBBN]

Hawaii is the most liberal state in the union. We just dont' care b/c it's smaller than most Texas cattle ranches.

[ukblue]

The supreme court has already ruled in a case that law enforcement's job was not protecting civilians but to enforce the law. When you have a law broken you already have a victim.

[dan_bgblue]

Jerry "Moonbeam" Brown signs off on new Cali gun laws

[ukblue]

When I was in grade school we had a teacher that was a retired marine corp sargeant. We actually brought.22 single shot rifles to school. We had to take the bolt out of the rifle and give it to the bus driver, retired army, as well as the ammo. We went behind the school where there was a big pile of dirt to shoot into. He took us one at a time to instruct us into how to load a gun safely and how to safe the weapon before bring it below our waist or turning with it. He taught us one at a time and even gave us a test about the proper way to handle a gun. The ones that failed went to the back of the line before they got another chance to shoot. The good old days when people had some sense.

[CitizenBBN]

I carried a knife the entire time I was in school, from first grade through 12th. So did everyone else back home, and a few here in the city, but back home no boy would be caught dead without a pocketknife.

it was a given to take guns out to shoot as a kid, and it was a given that adults were charged with making sure we knew what we were doing.

But in general terms people were expected to not be drooling morons. I was on a farm with all kinds of sharp blades and spinning discs and everything else far more dangerous than a 22 rifle, and rather than have me tied to a leash in the front yard I was simple taught and expected to not be an idiot around such things.

[badrose]

I carried a knife the entire time I was in school, from first grade through 12th. So did everyone else back home, and a few here in the city, but back home no boy would be caught dead without a pocketknife.

it was a given to take guns out to shoot as a kid, and it was a given that adults were charged with making sure we knew what we were doing.

But in general terms people were expected to not be drooling morons. I was on a farm with all kinds of sharp blades and spinning discs and everything else far more dangerous than a 22 rifle, and rather than have me tied to a leash in the front yard I was simple taught and expected to not be an idiot around such things.

You forgot Jarts.