Horrible - 50+ dead in Orlando nightclub shooting spree

[Krank]

http://www.newsweek.com/no-doubt-abo...-attack-470068


"We should be in no doubt about what the motivation was for the tragic events in Orlando.

And yet, over the past few days, as people try to make sense of this attack, there has been a reaching for reassurance that there was a cause, a reason, that we as a society can point a finger at something that could make such violence possible.

Homophobia, biphobia and transphobia as an answer, for some, seemed too simple an explanation. Or, perhaps, too unpleasant to think about. Yes, this was an act of terror, but we must accept that the reason that this attack happened exactly where it happened was because of hatred toward lesbian, gay, bi and trans people. There is no denying that this was a homophobic hate crime...

...The truth is that this horrific hate crime won’t come as a surprise to LGBT people. Only last year, the wife of one of my colleagues was viciously attacked for dressing outside of her gender norms—she wore a tie. Whether you see it or not, lesbian, gay, bi and trans people are still attacked and ostracized every day for no other reason than they are who they are.

More than 100 hate crimes are committed against LGBT people every week. Hatred toward and discrimination against trans people is also rife, and so much goes unreported.

In more than half the world LGBT people may not be protected against workplace discrimination and in 73 countries around the world sex with someone of the same sex is illegal...

...I would suggest that the reason there has been such reluctance to accept that this attack was motivated by homophobic, biphobic and transphobic attitudes is because we then have to accept the truly unpalatable. That homophobia, biphobia and transphobia is very much alive and well, and we know this. It exists in our workplaces, our schools and in our communities, and quite often it goes unchallenged. And while it might not lead people to commit acts of violence, it is still acceptable to be abusive toward LGBT people.

Homophobic comments are made and sometimes this abuse isn’t greeted with shock but laughter. Children still use the taunt of ‘that’s so gay’ and people turn a deaf ear.

Role models in our communities make hateful statements about the LGBT community, and we nominate them for awards.

It’s still acceptable to be homophobic and it is truly sobering and sad that it takes a tragedy like this to bring this to everyone’s attention...

...The lesbian, gay, bi and trans community is strong, beautiful and wonderfully diverse. We will continue to stand tall and support one another with love, kindness and open arms.

Please join us in doing so. Stand by the side of all LGBT people everywhere, and recognise the specific forms of discrimination that many of them face, whether it’s as a result of disability, gender identity, ethnicity or indeed faith. Many LGBT Muslims are feeling particularly vulnerable in the wake of the Orlando attack, as some people continue to claim that faith committed this heinous crime. It didn’t. An individual did.

Let’s also not forget to love, embrace, support and look out for one another. This is an extremely dark time for lesbian, gay, bi and trans people around the world, but we must look towards a brighter future."

[Doc]

[I]An Open Letter To Straight People On The Pulse Massacre

That's all well and good, sounds great coming from one of the LEAST TOLERANT group to folks of differing opinions. They are more than happy to attempt to run a businessman who DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE against gays in his hiring or who he offers his services to out of business as they attempted to do with Chic-fil-a owner Daniel Cathy who PERSONAL opposition to same sex marriage but DID NOT discriminate on a business level. They viciously attacked him for his personal beliefs simply because they were not the same as theirs even though he didn't discriminate in any way.

And this letter is a perfect example of narcissism at its finest . This was an attack by an INDIVIDUAL. While many disagree with the life style on a personal level, I know few short of those in the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk who believe that the gay community should be exterminated. In fact this tragedy hos shown exactly the OPPOSITE. There has been a general and worldwide outpouring of support. But don't let that stop the gay community from using it as a platform to take the actions of ONE INDIVIDUAL and use it to paint with a broad brush. Is the gay community discriminated against? Sure but ALL groups are to some degree.

This was the act of ONE individual who was acting under the influence of a religious sect that has no tolerance for homosexuality. That religious sect has an agenda to destroy this country due to our support of Israel. In general, that religion is oppressive on many level and not just towards the LGBT community.

[Krank]

That's all well and good, sounds great coming from one of the LEAST TOLERANT group to folks of differing opinions. They are more than happy to attempt to run a businessman who DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE against gays in his hiring or who he offers his services to out of business as they attempted to do with Chic-fil-a owner Daniel Cathy who PERSONAL opposition to same sex marriage but DID NOT discriminate on a business level. They viciously attacked him for his personal beliefs simply because they were not the same as theirs even though he didn't discriminate in any way.

And this letter is a perfect example of narcissism at its finest . This was an attack by an INDIVIDUAL. While many disagree with the life style on a personal level, I know few short of those in the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk who believe that the gay community should be exterminated. In fact this tragedy hos shown exactly the OPPOSITE. There has been a general and worldwide outpouring of support. But don't let that stop the gay community from using it as a platform to take the actions of ONE INDIVIDUAL and use it to paint with a broad brush. Is the gay community discriminated against? Sure but ALL groups are to some degree.

This was the act of ONE individual who was acting under the influence of a religious sect that has no tolerance for homosexuality. That religious sect has an agenda to destroy this country due to our support of Israel. In general, that religion is oppressive on many level and not just towards the LGBT community.

The reality is that LGBTQ+ people are still discriminated against and victimized on a daily basis. Same-sex marriage does not change that and you cannot expect us to conveniently forget the past as some sort of payment for the rite of marriage. This mass shooting was not an isolated event, or remnants of antiquated homophobia, or just religious extremism. It stemmed from the very real homophobic culture that exists in our country — the culture many of us contribute to whether we’d like to admit it or not.

If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem.

[Krank]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gay-commu...060.html?nhp=1

[Doc]

The reality is that LGBTQ+ people are still discriminated against and victimized on a daily basis. Same-sex marriage does not change that and you cannot expect us to conveniently forget the past as some sort of payment for the rite of marriage. This mass shooting was not an isolated event, or remnants of antiquated homophobia, or just religious extremism. It stemmed from the very real homophobic culture that exists in our country — the culture many of us contribute to whether we’d like to admit it or not.

If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem.

Every person in this nation can claim discrimination to some degree.

I'm not contributing to the problem because I don't care one way or the other. It makes ZERO difference to me. Now if the LGBT community had the same opinion about my opinion then I'd be fine. See me being indifferent isn't enough. I have to SUPPORT their point of view. So IMO, yes, TOLERANCE IS ENOUGH. I don't ask the LGBT community to come out and support my causes...and if they don't I don't threaten to destroy their businesses. That's where we differ.

[Krank]

Every person in this nation can claim discrimination to some degree.

I'm not contributing to the problem because I don't care one way or the other. It makes ZERO difference to me. Now if the LGBT community had the same opinion about my opinion then I'd be fine. See me being indifferent isn't enough. I have to SUPPORT their point of view. So IMO, yes, TOLERANCE IS ENOUGH. I don't ask the LGBT community to come out and support my causes...and if they don't I don't threaten to destroy their businesses. That's where we differ.

http://www.newsweek.com/no-doubt-abo...-attack-470068

"The truth is that this horrific hate crime won’t come as a surprise to LGBT people. Only last year, the wife of one of my colleagues was viciously attacked for dressing outside of her gender norms—she wore a tie. Whether you see it or not, lesbian, gay, bi and trans people are still attacked and ostracized every day for no other reason than they are who they are.

More than 100 hate crimes are committed against LGBT people every week. Hatred toward and discrimination against trans people is also rife, and so much goes unreported.

In more than half the world LGBT people may not be protected against workplace discrimination and in 73 countries around the world sex with someone of the same sex is illegal.

Trans laws are lagging woefully behind, both in the U.K. and abroad. And it shows in the hate crime statistics. Up to a third of trans people experience anti-trans abuse every year (Galop, 2014). Transphobic hate crime has risen every year for the past four years.

I would suggest that the reason there has been such reluctance to accept that this attack was motivated by homophobic, biphobic and transphobic attitudes is because we then have to accept the truly unpalatable. That homophobia, biphobia and transphobia is very much alive and well, and we know this. It exists in our workplaces, our schools and in our communities, and quite often it goes unchallenged. And while it might not lead people to commit acts of violence, it is still acceptable to be abusive toward LGBT people...

...The lesbian, gay, bi and trans community is strong, beautiful and wonderfully diverse. We will continue to stand tall and support one another with love, kindness and open arms.

Please join us in doing so. Stand by the side of all LGBT people everywhere, and recognise the specific forms of discrimination that many of them face, whether it’s as a result of disability, gender identity, ethnicity or indeed faith. Many LGBT Muslims are feeling particularly vulnerable in the wake of the Orlando attack, as some people continue to claim that faith committed this heinous crime. It didn’t. An individual did."

[KeithKSR]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b072d1185b1a04

Garbage like that is why one should never read the Huff-Post. Stuff like that only serves to sway the ignorant.

[KeithKSR]

http://time.com/4368570/orlando-shoo...lse-survivors/

The article doesn't do his words justice. I watched the presser live and his story is haunting.

[KeithKSR]

Krank, many of these pieces you have linked seems to place the blame for the attack in Orlando at the feet of society. I don't see this as an attack on the LGBT community, I see this an attack on Americans by a radical Islamist seeking to take out as many unarmed Americans as possible.

[Krank]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-for-gays.html

[CitizenBBN]

http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/en...b053e2197933bf

I'm curious of your opinion on that piece.

I found this striking: If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem.

I ran that through my universal political translator, and it says "if you don't accept and embrace everything we do and believe then you are a problem, so you must abandon your beliefs and embrace ours."

Honestly I find that to be about as self absorbed as you can get. I have no doubt gay people face persecution and discrimination, and I'm fine calling that out and debating it and addressing it, but the idea that anyone who simply, fundamentally, in their own belief system, disagrees is somehow a "problem", is an affront to the basic principles of individual liberty in this country.

I have news for him. For the entire history of this country we've disagreed on social norms and behaviors, and the way it has worked is we are all free to do things as we please and we do NOT have to adopt the ways of others.

Personally I'm very comfortable around the LGBT community, though I think the idea that there are 31 "gender identities" is nothing more than self-absorbed tripe, but just b/c I'm comfortable with it doesn't mean everyone has to be. So long as they don't impose on the rights of a gay person to do as he/she pleases that's all the obligation they have in this social contract.

[CitizenBBN]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-for-gays.html

To me calling someone a "homophobe" when they have not exhibited anything more than disagreement with a cause or social agenda tells you a lot. the same way someone who doesn't support welfare is called a racist or is against the poor.

I actually pointed out here long ago in a post that the gay community should be one of the groups most loudly demanding we do something about ISIS and radical Islam, as they are persecuting gays in a very stone age way, simply murdering them in the streets.

I agree this is a political move to drive a wedge into the Left with the LGBT community, but that doesn't make the point any less valid. For all the bluster about the rights of gays and women and the need to spread social justice throughout the world in places like Africa, we are doing damned little to spread some justice to protect those groups where they are being treated by far the worst.

ISIS and the Taliban and the other extremist groups are the most anti-women, anti-gay, anti-liberty group maybe in the modern era. They are every bit the equivalent of the Nazis or the Japanese militarists in China. For a Left, a group that by and large has complained about every injustice on earth, they are oddly quiet on a policy towards ISIS that seems to be mostly just hoping they grow old and get bored with it and die off.

Many high profile Hollywood types have come out against Israel, in support of a Palestinian Authority who actively condones killing civilians, but have said nary a word about a group that murders gays as a matter of policy and is operating an open market in female slavery.

when the Academy Awards get hijacked routinely to talk about the situation in Tibet or some other far off land, I wonder why no one has lamented the horrible nightmare that is living in ISIS occupied territory. I bet every person in that area would gladly relocate to Tibet.

I agree this is politics, but it does have a point. The LGBT community thus far has done more to blame conservatives and gun advocates and even just average Americans than they have to blame the messages of ISIS and other radical Muslim leaders including those in this country or the policies of an Administration that have allowed those messages to continue unabated.

[Krank]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/see-evolu...547.html?nhp=1

[CitizenBBN]

Krank, many of these pieces you have linked seems to place the blame for the attack in Orlando at the feet of society. I don't see this as an attack on the LGBT community, I see this an attack on Americans by a radical Islamist seeking to take out as many unarmed Americans as possible.

He picked out gays b/c of some probable deep persona issues but also b/c a big part of the radical Islamic agenda is to persecute gays. they have actively called for killing them. This isn't a problem with society, this is a problem with letting radical leaders run around calling for murder and convincing insane people to go do it.

[CitizenBBN]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/see-evolu...547.html?nhp=1

As an aside, I have a 30 star kentucky state flag I'm going to auction. Ought to be quite a piece, we're doing authentication on it now.

[CitizenBBN]

Many LGBT Muslims are feeling particularly vulnerable in the wake of the Orlando attack, as some people continue to claim that faith committed this heinous crime. It didn’t. An individual did."

Sadly, it is one segment of a faith that certainly encouraged this.

I have a feeling if the Southern Baptists started calling for the murder of gays in order to save them, and then someone who went to one of those churches and heard those calls to murder gays went out and did it, the LGBT community wouldn't be so forgiving.

it is a faith that must be quashed by the much larger Muslim majority who do not accept their interpretation, just as all Christians must stand up to the Westboro Baptist Church and their hate speech towards gays and Jews and others. I don't accept that either speak for the majority who are part of the broader religion, but to deny they are doing what they are doing b/c of their faith and beliefs is to twist the English language. They are doing it b/c they believe their religion calls them to do it, they're just deeply wrong and in a very small minority of their broader faith.

[CitizenBBN]

That's all well and good, sounds great coming from one of the LEAST TOLERANT group to folks of differing opinions. They are more than happy to attempt to run a businessman who DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE against gays in his hiring or who he offers his services to out of business as they attempted to do with Chic-fil-a owner Daniel Cathy who PERSONAL opposition to same sex marriage but DID NOT discriminate on a business level. They viciously attacked him for his personal beliefs simply because they were not the same as theirs even though he didn't discriminate in any way.

And this letter is a perfect example of narcissism at its finest . This was an attack by an INDIVIDUAL. While many disagree with the life style on a personal level, I know few short of those in the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk who believe that the gay community should be exterminated. In fact this tragedy hos shown exactly the OPPOSITE. There has been a general and worldwide outpouring of support. But don't let that stop the gay community from using it as a platform to take the actions of ONE INDIVIDUAL and use it to paint with a broad brush. Is the gay community discriminated against? Sure but ALL groups are to some degree.

This was the act of ONE individual who was acting under the influence of a religious sect that has no tolerance for homosexuality. That religious sect has an agenda to destroy this country due to our support of Israel. In general, that religion is oppressive on many level and not just towards the LGBT community.

Doc I wish I'd read this before I typed my response. "+1" would have been a lot quicker.

It's utterly self absorbed, and a fundamental disrespecting of the basic principles of individual liberty he purports to uphold.

[Krank]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/loretta-l...011.html?nhp=1

"...The victims of this attack were living in an America that had newly recognized their fundamental right to marry. They were living in a country that had draped the White House in a rainbow flag. They were living in a world where the highest court in our land had declared that love is love. And remember this, and know this, and hold onto this: We are still that country. That is still us.”...

...“As we all try, as we always do, to make some sense, to find some reason in an inherently senseless act, I want our LGBT friends and neighbors and family members to know this: that we support you,” she continued.

Movements for progress are never without opposition, she reminded. “Every movement indeed has faced opposition, has faced threats, has faced violence and fear. But we will persevere,” she said.

“And let us declare,” she said, “that far from dividing us as terrorism aims to do, let us show the world that this attack, this attack has brought us together in support. It has brought us together in solidarity. It has brought us together in love.”

Lynch also pledged the full resources at her command to the investigation of the attack, which left 49 victims dead. “I want you to know that the Department of Justice — I and all of my colleagues the FBI, the ATF, our national security division, our U.S. attorney’s office in Florida, our state and local partners — are doing everything that we can to investigate this appalling crime. And we will bring all resources to bear — everything we have — to this investigation.”

[dan_bgblue]

Lynch also pledged the full resources at her command to the investigation of the attack, which left 49 victims dead. “I want you to know that the Department of Justice — I and all of my colleagues the FBI, the ATF, our national security division, our U.S. attorney’s office in Florida, our state and local partners — are doing everything that we can to investigate this appalling crime. And we will bring all resources to bear — everything we have — to this investigation.”

To my reading eyes, that is more political babble and pandering. The perp is dead so what will spending untold millions to investigate everything and everyone really do? It might prove his wife is an accomplice, or give cause to bring the radical who publicly supported killing gays to a circus of a trial. What else will it accomplish? Will it suddenly cause radical muslims to start loving gays? Will it do anything to stop the next attack?

[Krank]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/orlando-r...000000727.html

[CitizenBBN]

I feel like I"m just being disagreeable, and dont' want to be, but IMO Lynch's comments on this being an attack on all of America are true.

The problem is those of us in the non-LGBT community saw it that way from the start. The only people that seem to disagree are certain voices in the LGBT community who are quickly blaming the non-LGBT community, or American society, or otherwise defining this as nothing more than a hate crime against gays.

We GOT that it was an attack on all of us, on all Americans, targeting a group they particularly despise but still an attack on our soil of us all. It's certain leaders of the LGBT community who seem confused on that point. They still see this as us versus them on a domestic level, LGBT versus those who tolerate but do not embrace their choices.

Just about everyone else sees it as an insane man who embraced a radical Islamic message and went out and killed innocent Americans in the name of that movement. No doubt targeting gays, but really no different than when another attacker targeted a recruiting office or another pair targeted a cartoon convention that dared draw Mohammad.

No doubt this guy had a particular issue with gays, and maybe was repressing his own tendencies, but it was still an attack he made in the name of the enemies and the enemies of human liberty.

[dan_bgblue]

Chick-fil-A

[CitizenBBN]

I'm too lazy to flush this out dan, but the Chick-fil-A attacks are a great example of the problem. The company did nothing anyone could point to that was discriminatory in any way, nor is their corporate behavior or mission in any way anti-gay.

All that happened was that their CEO happened to express HIS personal beliefs that marriage is between a man and a woman, and they were vilified and accused of making "hate chicken", etc.

how dare someone have a different opinion on a personal level, much less the gall to express it.

Mind you he never did anything TO anyone, nor did the company, he just had a different opinion.

That's very much relevant to that piece Krank cited, where some in the LGBT community believe that if you don't embrace their beliefs you are the enemy and even in some way ENCOURAGING these attacks. It highlights a self-absorbed view shared by most of the Left that if you don't embrace their ideals it's OK to persecute you, but you can't persecute them for their different beliefs b/c that's not supporting individual liberty.

It's a shame hypocrisy has no calories, we'd be able to feed the world with it.

[Doc]

Chick-fil-A

But you won't hear about that. A great thing for them to do.

But as far as being tolerant of others opinions, that's not to say that the moral majority is any different, or better. You better pray with Pat Robertson or Mike Huckabee, give a few "god blesses" every day and pray in school because that where praying should be done. And if you don't think so, if you think praying should be done at home and in church rather than school, then you sure ain't a good republican because those are "family values"! However the left seems to be more militant and aggressive about it. I've not seen boycotts of business, attempts to close industries based or physical violence played out from the right toward the left.

[Krank]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-...b_5805680.html

[suncat05]

You know, at the end of the day, this was a terrorist attack on AMERICANS, most of whom that were in that club on that night were gay. So what if they're gay? So what? They are AMERICANS who were attacked in AMERICA by an azzhole who called the police to brag about what he was doing while yelling "Allah Akbar" as he was squeezing the trigger.
Oh, those victims attacked were gay? So damn what? It's an excuse for MURDER. They are gay, so they have to die! BULLYANG! Live and let live. It's that simple. IMHO, we're focusing on the wrong subject here. The gay people in that club were/are not the problem. The problem is RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM, which our coward of a President doesn't have the stones to say and truthfully doesn't believe. And who refuses to protect us from RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM because he doesn't believe it's a problem.
Ahhhhhhh, if these cowardly RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS would only attack somebody like me. Somebody who would quickly turn into the newest chapter of the "72 Virgins Dating Club"!...............but those RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS cowards won't attack somebody like me unless they can jump me, because they know what comes next. So they'll continue to attack unarmed and defenseless people, just like they do everywhere else in this world, until somebody shoots back.

[kingcat]

With all due respect, we are concentrating on our political and social differences instead of standing united. Exactly the victory they desire, and one we cannot counter attack.

And so imho, no matter who is right or who is wrong (were it that cut and dried)...we are destined to fall. Almost the ultimate in sad.

As I was told by a family member the moment President Bush said we must change our way of life to fight the war on terror.."we lost".
And yet all we had to do was stand united placing our differences aside and maintain our way of life. But media ratings and advertising dollars take precedent over patriotism. I've come to see that as an indisputable fact.

And our reactions remain the same, lashing out against each other, affording terrorist the ability to influence if not control our destiny.

Money is becoming the god of this nation, politics it's MO, and TV the high priest. All sides of the political spectrum are complicit...as are we.

[UKHistory]

Money is becoming the god of this nation? Money has been the god of this country since people paid for kidnapped workers turned into slaves. Money has been the god of this country since coal miners were paid in script and the 8 hour work day was called a communist plot by the New York Times.

Money has been god for a long time.

[Krank]

You know, at the end of the day, this was a terrorist attack on AMERICANS, most of whom that were in that club on that night were gay. So what if they're gay? So what? They are AMERICANS who were attacked in AMERICA by an azzhole who called the police to brag about what he was doing while yelling "Allah Akbar" as he was squeezing the trigger.
Oh, those victims attacked were gay? So damn what? It's an excuse for MURDER. They are gay, so they have to die! BULLYANG! Live and let live. It's that simple. IMHO, we're focusing on the wrong subject here. The gay people in that club were/are not the problem. The problem is RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM, which our coward of a President doesn't have the stones to say and truthfully doesn't believe. And who refuses to protect us from RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM because he doesn't believe it's a problem.
Ahhhhhhh, if these cowardly RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS would only attack somebody like me. Somebody who would quickly turn into the newest chapter of the "72 Virgins Dating Club"!...............but those RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS cowards won't attack somebody like me unless they can jump me, because they know what comes next. So they'll continue to attack unarmed and defenseless people, just like they do everywhere else in this world, until somebody shoots back.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...lame-game.html

[Krank]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/war-vete...g-omar-mateen/