I'm glad those of you who follow it enjoy it. I watched some of the German game today while out having brunch (a most rare event for me) and it continues to just not click with me.
I certainly respect their conditioning and talent, but it' just doesn't make me want to watch.
that being said, modern sports would be in huge trouble if relying on me. I'm not huge on our football, and never watch golf, tennis or much else either. I'm a big fan of women's beach volleyball though.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I am trying to understand the rules, I really am, but there is no way for me to do that. Tons of contact all over the field. Some of the contact is is a penalty and some is not and it all looks the same. Some contact gets a yellow card, some gets a red card, some is just a common foul, and some of it goes unpenalized. I would like to enjoy the game, but that is not possible based on my limited knowledge of how it should be officiated. I am watching Chile vs Argentina and it looks like an uncontrolled scrum. Time to watch something else
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
Dan, many people unfamiliar with basketball would say the same thing. You and I can watch a game and we know when the referee will blow a whistle when contact occurs, and we know when the whistle won't blow. To outsiders, it looks the same. The basketball rule is "illegal" contact, which the rulebook defines as contact that creates an advantage. But if you haven't played the game or watched it, I daresay that definitional rule provides no guidance in knowing what will be a foul and what won't be.
A cheat sheet guide on soccer is that they must play the ball, and not the man. So if you hit the guy and then get the ball, it's a foul. If you are hitting the ball at the same time (tackling-which is entirely different than tackling in American football), then it is a legal play. So if you see a guy get tripped or slammed before the ball is contacted, it will be a foul.
As a further cheat sheet, whether it is a card or not can, rule of thumb, be determined by degree of severity of the foul. It's like the US Supreme Court's definition of obscenity - you can't define it, but know it when you see it. Red cards are rarely given, unless it's a "dirty" play, usually dangerous, or extreme unsportsman conduct. Usually a red card appears because the same player receives two yellow cards in the same game, which is, by rule, a red card.
Of course, fans disagree with soccer officials just like we disagree with basketball officials. Think of how often we argue about basketball referees, and then apply that to an outsider. Having watched hundreds of games in the last 10 years, I find soccer much easier to define an infraction than basketball.
Much of the enjoyment won't come for Americans until we follow the various Euro leagues. It is confusing, but having leagues in England, Spain, etc. make it confusing to follow. The way to understand it is to analogize those five major leagues to the Power conferences in US colleges. La Liga may be like the SEC, other leagues like the Pac-12, etc. Knowing the players helps following the games.
It is very hard to get involved in the sport without that emotional investment. Just the way it is, and I admire those who at least give it a chance without it. It's hard.
As an aside, I began writing a book about Enjoying Soccer for Reluctant Soccer Dads and Others, which explains a lot of soccer on a basic, analogous to common US Sports levels. One day when I get time I may pick back up on the project. I sat with a friend of mine whose son plays high level high school basketball (not a 4* or 5* player, but recruitable) at a freshman soccer game and we talked the entire game. I began with analogies and by the end of the 70 minute game he told me he enjoyed it a lot more after that (well, his words were that I made it tolerable) and he said I should write a book.
Some day. I got 12 pages in and stopped. It won't be long, but I'm thinking 50 page e-book kinda thing.
It's very understandable, for the reasons I posted in reply to Dan, too. It becomes more enjoyable over time, like developing a taste for your favorite adult beverage!Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
I'm glad those of you who follow it enjoy it. I watched some of the German game today while out having brunch (a most rare event for me) and it continues to just not click with me.
I certainly respect their conditioning and talent, but it' just doesn't make me want to watch.
that being said, modern sports would be in huge trouble if relying on me. I'm not huge on our football, and never watch golf, tennis or much else either. I'm a big fan of women's beach volleyball though.
I have been able to watch enough that I have been able to understand much of what you shared about the fouls and how they should be called. Based on my observations the soccer officials suck worse than any official in basketball or football in the SEC. My biggest inability to understand the rules comes when a player is dribbling and players are pushing them from all sides including shoves in the back and the defender makes no contact with the ball or are they really making much of an attempt to do so. They are just trying to knock the offensive player off stride, or in many cases just shove them to the ground and no foul is called
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
Dan, your confusion on the fouls is because you're not recognizing that the contact you described is legal. Basically, contact is permitted in soccer when you play the ball, but playing the ball is different than contacting the ball (that's just a quick cheat-sheet version). Playing the ball means challenging for the ball, or even challenging for space within the ball's distance.
Shoulder to shoulder contact is permitted (that's not lowering your shoulder with a block, but pushing, shoving, and using body weight to move a player away from the ball you intend to "tackle"--i.e., you tackle the ball, not a player in soccer). So what you call the soccer officials "sucking," is them getting the call exactly right.
I disagree that they allow "pushing" (in the sense of a two-handed shove kinda thing) although if you asked if a player "ever" got away with using his hands to push, or hold, I'd have to say it occurs in every game I've probably seen--just as I've seen players push and hold a basketball player in every game I've ever seen.
Knocking the player off stride is also perfectly permissible, and a good defensive play, providing it is within the charge as well.
So add to the cheat sheet:
* It is ok to contact a player shoulder to shoulder almost anytime as one player charges to challenge for the ball. That includes running side by side, as well as approaching the player as well, or even via the back in an effort to screen the ball away from an opponent. Those are all "fair charges" in the rules of soccer, and legal contact.
* Caveat--it presupposes at least one foot will be on the ground (picture a guy with a flying block through the air, and that won't be allowed, obviously)
Legal contact OFTEN results in a weaker player, a player off balance, a player being caught on the wrong foot, or just timing, having his butt placed on the ground. Legal.
So now that I've added these additions to the cheat sheet version of rules, what is not legal contact?
Two things.
Illegal contact, and inadvertent contact.
Illegal contact is the bad stuff; the fouls. Basically, it's kicking another opponent, tripping him, holding him, striking him (with hands), or using excessive force--and that's obvious about 99% of the time. Mostly, these are "bad challenges." They occur when the player is careless, reckless, or dangerous/excessive (a red card violation). They can also be when you're not within striking distance of the ball.
Inadvertent contact (it may be called accidental; I don't remember), is something that falls in between. Just bad luck. Two guys trying to head a ball hit each other. Bad luck, no foul, accidental contact. Two players going for a 50-50 ball. Player lands awkwardly after two players get legs tangled up, with no real "instigator" of the contact.
As I said earlier, I think they do a very good job of officiating the games. My son can sit there and watch a game and make 95+% of all the calls the officials make before the whistle blows. So it may not be that hard to call it, taking the "fan bias" out of the game, as opposed to the officials being as good as all that.
Last edited by Darrell KSR; 06-27-2016 at 12:13 PM.
That info is valuable, and it is obvious I have a lot to learn
seeya
dan
I'm just one stomach flu away from my goal weight.
You know, in women's beach volleyball you really don't care about the rules nearly as much. And they're a lot easier to learn anyway.
for me it's just the nature of the sports. Football has moments of action so you tune into those, and eat and drink the rest of the time, but you know when they'll be, so that works. Soccer may go an hour with nothing terribly notable happening, or something big may happen, and you have no idea when, so you either watch an hour of nothing important or you go about your social activity and figure if nothing else there's replay.
In basketball there's no guarantee either, but it is constant action that does within a few minutes have a big impact on the game.
It's just personal taste in the end. I've watched soccer when out, it just doesn't do much for me. Maybe learning the rules would help, but I doubt it. I know the golf rules pretty well and I can't stand to watch it at all. Nap to it maybe, but watch it no.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Won't latch on until we start following "La Liga," "Champions League," etc. like we do SEC, ACC, Big TenWhatever, etc. JMO, but I think that's key.You know, in women's beach volleyball you really don't care about the rules nearly as much. And they're a lot easier to learn anyway.
for me it's just the nature of the sports. Football has moments of action so you tune into those, and eat and drink the rest of the time, but you know when they'll be, so that works. Soccer may go an hour with nothing terribly notable happening, or something big may happen, and you have no idea when, so you either watch an hour of nothing important or you go about your social activity and figure if nothing else there's replay.
In basketball there's no guarantee either, but it is constant action that does within a few minutes have a big impact on the game.
It's just personal taste in the end. I've watched soccer when out, it just doesn't do much for me. Maybe learning the rules would help, but I doubt it. I know the golf rules pretty well and I can't stand to watch it at all. Nap to it maybe, but watch it no.
See, you see no action, and I see constant action. Comparing it to football, where you watch a 6-second play, and then sit for 45 seconds, and I see football as more boring than soccer, where they "do" things for 45 seconds, and sit for 6 seconds while they call a foul and set up a free kick. (Those are both exaggerated numbers made just for emphasis).
The action isn't "just" scoring a goal. It's tackles, passes, traps, crosses, headers, fouls, corner kicks, one-two's (give-and-go's), shots on goals, breakaways, etc. It's movement toward scoring opportunities.
In the pseudo-book I'm writing, I compare it to football, and gaining first downs headed to an end zone before you punt. In football, many to most possessions end in a boring punt (although punt returns can be exciting). Is anything worse than a fair catch on a punt? Zzzzzz.
In soccer, most possessions end with an athletic tackle (steal) and the defensive team immediately on an offensive counter. In a big game, the tension is constant, and it wears you out. (This is where I like football, because you get to do "old man rest" between plays). No wimpy TV timeouts; the game continues until halftime, and then until it ends.
Just a different way of seeing it. But it isn't pinochle, and it will take years, or decades to "get there." As I said, I admire all who give it a chance--it is almost impossible to "like" in a similar way to sports we grew up with, learned, played, watched on TV, in person, through elementary, middle school, and high school, talk about with our neighbors, our co-workers, our business partners, read about in the daily newspaper (when they had those we read), chatted about on internet forums, etc.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of the sport. It can't be done. It is an immersion process that takes years (IMHO).
The pseudo-book I'm writing relates to those of us who have had soccer forced upon us. Kid started playing at 3 or 4 years of age, played in leagues, teams, then moved to competitive, traveled out of states, played indoors, year round, camps, etc. ad nauseam and we still didn't like it. We couldn't tell you the difference between La Liga and La Leche, between Lionel Messi and Lionel Trains.
I'm trying to give them some tips, some cheat sheets, some pointers, some analogies, and some alternate points of views and angles within which to view the same game they're having to watch anyway.
I'm not "there" yet myself, either. I'm talking a better game than I live. I can turn on a game; almost any college football or basketball game, and leave it on, regardless of the teams, and watch it. Now, granted, I allow myself to be distracted. I go to the kitchen and grab something to drink. I go to the restroom. I talk on the phone. I text. I read and post on this site. But I still have it on.
Unless the soccer match is, say, the semifinals of COPA, or an important Euro game, I won't necessarily be watching the soccer game, even in the same vein. Chile vs Colombia? Sure, fun game to watch. Argentina v Chile championship? Of course. But has to be "big" (or USA). My son watches Real Madrid, or Granada, or Leicester City, or whoever playing each other, but he knows the players, the strike force, etc. Lot more fun that way. I'm not there.
Make no mistake, there is plenty of discretion with officials in soccer like any other sport, too. I just think it's a little tiny bit clearer than basketball, for example. And don't get me started about football holding calls, which could be called on every play.
I like the contact in soccer. For the most part it is fair play. It took me a long time to determine what was a legal tackle. You have to watch or play a lot to catch on. I find it to be a much cleaner sport than hockey or American football. The theatrics I can do without. More yellow cards for faking it are needed.
comparing it to football in action I see as fair, but then again I agree football has very little actual action.it's just well organized so you know when to drink, when to watch.
I'm not trying to be negative on the sport, I get that huge numbers of people enjoy it, and maybe if it mattered enough that I really got into it I might, but i doubt it.
I liken it to basketball, but a game where you are required to dribble and pass in such a way that the ball is stolen or turned over on 99.95% of all possessions. The movement and play is certainly constant, but the results are rare.
In basketball where there are 30 turnovers on each team and they shoot 30% we consider it a lousy game. Translate that to soccer and it's the highest scoring, most crisply played game in the history of the sport.
I know it's not truly sloppy like in a bball game with all those turnovers, it's the nature of passing and defense for the sport, but it has the same effect.
The other thing that I really don't like is that I don't get the feel of ebb and flow I get in basketball. In that game with Germany they were up 3-0 but even up just 1-0 with 10 minutes to go it was damned likely they were winning, up 2-0 it was nearly a lock. Not that there aren't surges and comebacks, but I liken that to college ball before the shot clock and 3 point shot. It happened, but it was far too easy to take the air out of the ball and milk out a win.
I didn't want to hijack and critique the sport mostly b/c I'm not a good measure of such things. I love basketball, I can watch football, it gets pretty thin after that. I like baseball if I'm at the game, but on TV isn't nearly so interesting (baseball was meant to be attended IMO more than any other sport), and after that there's no much I watch.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
I bet it took me longer, and I'm still learning, but it's now much more enjoyable because of it. Great point about the theatrics, which have spilled down to youth soccer, and it's probably worse to see a teenager do it.
I think those critiques are fair. Goals are such a premium that a 1-0 lead can result in one team pulling an offensive player back and playing defense, which makes it even worse. Having a 2-0 lead late and it's dang near impossible to catch up, although there's a saying that a 2-0 lead is the most dangerous lead in soccer. (I'd much rather have the "2" than the "0," though.)
I discussed this one day with my son and I told him that I thought it would be a better game for Americans if the goal area was widened two feet on either side, and maybe 6 inches higher on the top end. My guess is that it would turn 2-0, or 2-1 games into 5-3 games. He's much more traditional, die-hard than I am, and he says, "Dad, don't you like a 1-0 pitcher's duel in baseball?"
He got me with that one. But there are baseball fans that don't like a pitcher's duel; I'm just not one of them. Great defense and pitching is a joy for me to watch as a baseball purist, so a 1-0 game is a joy to watch. And for him, a 1-0 soccer game (or even a 0-0 game) is also a pure game. I get that.
I tell you what I like about soccer so much. I like the fact that I can see plays developing. And the plays may develop over a 10-15 second period of time. They may not achieve a "goal," but they provide an opportunity for a goal. I like that.
Be a boring world if we were all in love with baseball only, or football only, or in this case, soccer only. I think it's great that people give it a try. I bet--and I could be wrong--but I bet that very few people who are not "immersed" in soccer can turn on the TV and enjoy it off the bat.
Well things have become more interesting. Spain and England are toast losing in the first round of knockout play. Germany, Italia and France are still alive both are 5-4 favorites to win the Cup. Germany has the toughest road to the cup. If all the favored teams with Germany will face Italia, France, and Belgium. Of course it will be a tougher road for anyone Germany faces. I still like Germany but the Belgium team has been impressive. Any of these four teams could win. Deutschland Uber Alles.
Mick, you may know Neal Clement, who coaches at Briarwood--his office is next door to mine. He's from England, and a diehard. To say he's moping is to understate the obvious. He is ready to ship the whole team off.
Italy beating Spain surprised me, but I don't follow it as well as many do; it may not have even surprised you. Winning 2-nil was near shocking to me.
It's just not Spain's year. They have to cycle their talent before the World Cup. Most EnGlish folks have an inflated opinion of their brand of football and its talent relative to the rest of the world. It will be a long time before they can think of returning to preeminence in Europe, much less the world.
It is funny, I used to hate soccer and found it HORRIBLY boring. That was until a buddy of mine, who plays semi-pro soccer, properly explained it to me. The way the strategies work, what things to look for, etc. Like many games of finesse and strategy, it is very much an acquired taste. Now I watched most of the Copa Americas, messaging back and forth with him about the games.
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