Scalia found dead?

[jazyd]

You mean the government subsidized tuition that allowed college to be affordable for you (I will assume you sent to school at the latest in the early 80s), that has had the subsidies gutted and as a result is entrapping many young kids in mountains of debt.

Hmmm noticed you didn't go after doc for saying the same thing

Now tell me how many people do you employ, pay into their social security, propert taxes on your propert, property taxes on business inventory and fixtures, computers, inventory tax to the city our business is in, tourism and city taxes at the hotels we stay at for business, extra sakes taxes on food at restaurants so each city can have even more money to steal or waste.

And no my wife and I didn't go to college in the 80's, we earned our degrees un 1970, all 3 of them, all paid by us and no handouts like some of you like to gave. Nor did we join the drug headed hippies of that time. We both lost multiple classmates and friends in Vietnam...just to satisfy you I failed the physical otherwise I would have been a Marine and probably had my ass shot in Nam....

We pay way more than our fair share so don't give your sh.t about the debt. Guys like doc, citizen and myself support all the last sob's that live off your precious government handouts. We pay taxes out the wazoo, emp'oyee people, give and give and give. We don't get free food, free phones, free minutes, free housing, free schools, free medical, free dental, free hospitals, free earned income tax credits...that is a good obe "earned" free rebates for not working and paying taxes....and taking care of all those illegals who break our laws and then get so much free that doc, citizen nor me and our families get for free. Maybe those like us should just shut down, move out of the country and let those like you figure out how to pay for all that crap

[PedroDaGr8]

Hmmm noticed you didn't go after doc for saying the same thing

Now tell me how many people do you employ, pay into their social security, propert taxes on your propert, property taxes on business inventory and fixtures, computers, inventory tax to the city our business is in, tourism and city taxes at the hotels we stay at for business, extra sakes taxes on food at restaurants so each city can have even more money to steal or waste.

And no my wife and I didn't go to college in the 80's, we earned our degrees un 1970, all 3 of them, all paid by us and no handouts like some of you like to gave. Nor did we join the drug headed hippies of that time. We both lost multiple classmates and friends in Vietnam...just to satisfy you I failed the physical otherwise I would have been a Marine and probably had my ass shot in Nam....

We pay way more than our fair share so don't give your sh.t about the debt. Guys like doc, citizen and myself support all the last sob's that live off your precious government handouts. We pay taxes out the wazoo, emp'oyee people, give and give and give. We don't get free food, free phones, free minutes, free housing, free schools, free medical, free dental, free hospitals, free earned income tax credits...that is a good obe "earned" free rebates for not working and paying taxes....and taking care of all those illegals who break our laws and then get so much free that doc, citizen nor me and our families get for free. Maybe those like us should just shut down, move out of the country and let those like you figure out how to pay for all that crap

We all pay taxes, good on you for running a successful business I respect you for that. But as usual, you are eager to put words in my mouth I never ONCE said free, I DID say that costs had gotten heavily out of hand. I don't get free anything, nor do I want it. I have paid my share and still am, what I want is for those that follow me to not get screwed as they are right now. I left school with a masters degree in Chemistry with $43,000 in debt (and tuition has gone up even worse since I graduated) and discovered entry level jobs in chemistry pay around $35-40k/yr at the time. This is with working 20hr weeks during the school year and full time over the summer. Around 1/4 of my current monthly take-home income goes solely to my student loans. The 1970s were even MORE favorable for you, higher relative minimum wage AND lower college tuition. In 1972 tuition for the YEAR was around $1800 (in 2015 dollars), the cost is NOW $10,000/yr (these are for UK) and that is before even discussing books and other required materials (books have seen a similar rise in cost). So cut the crap on how BAD you had it back then. You have the usual "F*** you I got mine, you don't get yours" kinda attitude. In th 1970s you could work around 300 hours (around 8 weeks, doable in a summer) at 1970s minimum wage and pay for college. Currently, it is at 32 weeks and rapidly climbing many mid-range schools it is actually impossible now. Quite simply, someone could work full time the whole year and go to school for one semester. That is the only way they can do it if thhey don't have rich family members and don't want to take on debt. Pell grants have been slashed, tuition is sky high, books and other required fees are through the roof. I don't care how it is done, whether it is a national cap on tuition prices or subsidies, or what but at this rate, MANY people not from wealthy families are drowning in college debt. To make matters worse, most jobs with any advancement anymore require AT LEAST a BS degree.

None of this even begins to discuss room and board or food. If you want to sleep somewhere and eat, add more weeks to these totals.

Unfortuantely, cutting students able to go to college won't work because the job market won't bear it. All of the manual labor factory jobs are GONE. There just isn't many options left like there was before the 1970s and 80s happened.

EDIT: Removed ad hominem remark.

[CitizenBBN]

I don't want to lock this thread but if the personal attacks continue then so be it.


As for "free education", nothing could be a worse idea for education in this country. The government has not once in its history taken over the financing of something and seen the product get BETTER or MORE EFFICIENT or LESS EXPENSIVE. All that will happen is more of exactly what has happened with the increases in subsidies, which is college costs going through the roof.

Why is that? Don't people think to ask why some areas of our economy are getting more expensive in leaps and bounds while others get better and cheaper every year? Why is it that I can buy the latest greatest computer for a fraction of what lesser products cost 10 years ago yet in areas like health care and education the opposite is true where we pay more and get less? If the computer industry was overseen and deeply influenced by government does anyone think we'd be this far along with this quality and price point? Anyone?

Maybe it's that those areas are all but run by the government? Governments think in terms of growing budgets, growing bureaucracy and absolutely NOT improving product quality and lowering costs. So their solution to college tuition going up is to make more money available so it can go up even more! Good plan.

First, I disagree with Pedro that we need everyone to go to college. Nonsense. College is the most bloated time suck I've ever seen. You can go there for years and not learn anything useful to helping the economy or yourself. Even if you do learn something you can still have LOADS of time spent on things you don't need.

Does that mean we need welders and textile workers? Well not as many, though we could bring some of those jobs back if we had any sense, but we could instead focus on schools that teach a more narrow group of skills that could get you a white collar job.

I need a person who can just operate in an office. You don't need classes in chemistry for what I need, and likewise if you want to be in a lab you don't need classes in Eastern history.

That's great to have, and I have a classic liberal arts education, but it's not necessary for people to have those things to be productive in a modern economy.

I'm with Mike Rowe, a guy who maybe has more job experience than anyone in the country. There's work to be done out there that doesn't require a 4 year degree, plenty of it, both dirty and otherwise. so stop spending tens of thousands at schools where you really don't get the return on your investment and focus on getting a career and making a living.

Free tuition isn't the answer, that's just the socialist wrapped version of tax and spend, promising goodies to get votes and kicking the bill down the road. The answer is job creation and the way to do that is to get the tangle of bureaucracy out of the free market and let it go to work again, with a heavy emphasis on small business and new business startups.

[bigsky]

We need "everyone", lets call it 65%, or more, to have post secondary training/education/certificate/associates/degree in something that prepares them to compete successfully in the job market

[CitizenBBN]

We need "everyone", lets call it 65%, or more, to have post secondary training/education/certificate/associates/degree in something that prepares them to compete successfully in the job market

I can agree with that, it just doesn't have to be a 4 year "college degree".

Though honestly another aspect of that is that high school and parents have really dumbed down in the ability to train people to work for a living and if that weren't the case we wouldn't need the percentage to be that high.

[suncat05]

I used to be licensed and certified in a secondary occupation, but I let that lapse when I joined the Army back in the 80's. I currently hold certifications in two different law enforcement disciplines here in Florida, but with retirement not far off, I have taken an interest in something in a related area, and in which I will be my own boss and be able to choose how much or how little I will work.
I have 2 Associate Degrees, one in General Education and the other in Law Enforcement. While having never attained a Bachelor's Degree, I feel that I have done well enough with what I currently have. And upon retirement, I am going to do what I want, when I want, how I want and I will be able to say "No" if I want to. My initial starting costs will be minimal, and being able to work at home is absolutely priceless.
In that respect CBBN, Doc & jazyd are right on point. And I fully agree with CBBN'S assessment that college educations, for anything outside occupations that are "needed & necessary" are a waste of time and money. Degrees in medicine and related fields are necessary and worthwhile, along with education, computer sciences, law, engineering, those are necessary and needed degrees. In my book, extremely valuable. Now there are degrees in other occupations that, in my mind, are a complete waste of time. POLITICAL SCIENCE is one. Absolute waste of effort and money considering the piss poor return that we, the citizens of this country receive for all of that hot air bloviation. And I guess it might serve some useful purpose, but I have some serious doubts as to how useful a degree in "classic medieval poetry" might be out in the real world.
Why has America been losing jobs and its manufacturing ability? Start with the socialist controlled labor unions, and domestic job destruction legislation like NAFTA & the TPP, and all of its, and all of the career politicians in Congress that have never hit an honest lick in their damn lives and wouldn't know hard work if it bit them in their worthless behinds.
These are just my thoughts. Yours may differ.

[PedroDaGr8]

I don't want to lock this thread but if the personal attacks continue then so be it.


As for "free education", nothing could be a worse idea for education in this country. The government has not once in its history taken over the financing of something and seen the product get BETTER or MORE EFFICIENT or LESS EXPENSIVE. All that will happen is more of exactly what has happened with the increases in subsidies, which is college costs going through the roof.

Why is that? Don't people think to ask why some areas of our economy are getting more expensive in leaps and bounds while others get better and cheaper every year? Why is it that I can buy the latest greatest computer for a fraction of what lesser products cost 10 years ago yet in areas like health care and education the opposite is true where we pay more and get less? If the computer industry was overseen and deeply influenced by government does anyone think we'd be this far along with this quality and price point? Anyone?

Maybe it's that those areas are all but run by the government? Governments think in terms of growing budgets, growing bureaucracy and absolutely NOT improving product quality and lowering costs. So their solution to college tuition going up is to make more money available so it can go up even more! Good plan.

First, I disagree with Pedro that we need everyone to go to college. Nonsense. College is the most bloated time suck I've ever seen. You can go there for years and not learn anything useful to helping the economy or yourself. Even if you do learn something you can still have LOADS of time spent on things you don't need.

Does that mean we need welders and textile workers? Well not as many, though we could bring some of those jobs back if we had any sense, but we could instead focus on schools that teach a more narrow group of skills that could get you a white collar job.

I need a person who can just operate in an office. You don't need classes in chemistry for what I need, and likewise if you want to be in a lab you don't need classes in Eastern history.

That's great to have, and I have a classic liberal arts education, but it's not necessary for people to have those things to be productive in a modern economy.

I'm with Mike Rowe, a guy who maybe has more job experience than anyone in the country. There's work to be done out there that doesn't require a 4 year degree, plenty of it, both dirty and otherwise. so stop spending tens of thousands at schools where you really don't get the return on your investment and focus on getting a career and making a living.

Free tuition isn't the answer, that's just the socialist wrapped version of tax and spend, promising goodies to get votes and kicking the bill down the road. The answer is job creation and the way to do that is to get the tangle of bureaucracy out of the free market and let it go to work again, with a heavy emphasis on small business and new business startups.

Removed my ad hominem attack, sorry about that it was truly uncalled for and sorry to Jazy for the the comment.

I agree with you in principle and would agree with you in reality if the job market wasn't what it currently is. By saying the jobs will come and not everyone needs a college degree; you are just kicking the can down the road as well. The businesses are pushing everything to weaker labor markets, any job they can push there they will; from manufacturing, to R&D, to IT, all of it is going there. It is driving down the rates of pay for even the more technical jobs now, the one exception being computer science (and one could argue that pay is in the midst of a bubble). It is also eliminating the most basic entry level jobs because those are the most easily outsourced. I remember when I graduated, the ENTRY level jobs were requiring 3 yrs industrial experience, it took me almost two years to find a job. Thankfully, that has subsided some at least. Something has to be done, because we are rapidly approaching a dwindling middle class because of a lack of jobs to enter that level. Your generation will be fine, in mine those that are fine are already doing fine, those that got screwed by student loans likely never will, those that screwed themselves likely never will either but every generation has that bunch. The ones screwed by student loans are more or less lost at this point with very little chance of recovery EVER. Hopefully, the one after mine will be fine too. Combine this with HR departments which are requiring BS degrees for even the most menial jobs (I have seen janitorial jobs with a BS/BA requirement) and you can see how it is rapidly becoming a trap. The causes for this are various (consolidation into larger corporations, red-tape, natural results of capitalism, etc.) and as such, how do you ACTUALLY fix it. Saying remove the red tape is nice but in the past we haven't seen it translate to increased hiring let alone increased wages for the middle class. Increased share-holder (and as a result CEO) returns and stock buy backs yeah, but it hasn't shown signs of helping out the middle class.

I lost another acquaintance to suicide a few months back, the main reason crippling student loan debt. He had a degree in physics, had the bad luck of graduating when the market tanked. Penalties and interest basically ended up doubling his loan amounts before he could get a real job (he worked several part time jobs). Many were through private loans which means that they didn't have to follow the 25% of income payment rule that public loans now are set at, many private lenders can be real dicks. He basically realized/felt, that he would be paying for these for the rest of his life, never getting ahead, that there was no way he could escape from it. While I believe in the future his earnings would have improved enough for him to get on top of it, who knows and at that point with what kind of life would be left? Not enough life left to purchase a house, build up his retirement properly, etc. This is someone who did things "the right way", got good grades in school majored in a STEM major (though clearly not the right one), went to college like his parents told him. In the end, doing it the "right way" is what ruined his life.

As for socialism, I think it is a response of the middle class feeling increasing amounts of pressure. I don't think it is a case where people think "hey, things are great lets fundamentally change them" i think it is more of "I am barely hanging on by a thread, one wrong move could ruin my life for good. I am scared". They have had friends lives ruined by a job loss, my a medical illness, etc. They know that all of the talent in the world can't save them from this. It is one chance occurence and boom their life as they know it is gone for good. In theory, socialism offers them a safety net a situation where they feel like if they fall they don't fall far. I think if there were solid jobs that people, especially lower middle class, could do and get; there would be much less of a push for socialism. As a result, the barometer of socialism could be viewed as a "canary in the coal mine" for what the middle class and lower middle class are REALLY feeling.

Another thing I will agree with you on, the state of business/life teaching in school is abysmal. Hell life teaching in general, part of the reason is because society has moved so fast but also because there is so much of a push to teach SO many things. To be honest, it is MUCH more useful for most kids to learn how to create a budget and manage debt than it is to teach them Integral Calculus. I say this as someone who made it through Calc IV and matrix algebra. In the Univ. of Cali system, if you get a masters in science, you are are required to take business courses as well. In particular, startup business related courses. This gets you ready for actually managing your own business. Very few other school systems do this, KY certainly did not when I was there.

Another thing to note, we unfortunately in this country have rejected science spending. In particular the funding for fundamental (read not directly business applicable) scientific research. In a decade or less, we will lose our technological supremacy to China. We trained their PhDs and then kicked them out with our stupid immigration policy, then we cut the funding for our own scientific research at hte same time China is dumping large amounts in to it. As a percent of GDP, we are down to around 0.5% of GDP going to ALL scientific research (both defense and non-defense related), in the 1970s it was around 1.5%. This research is important because fundamental science research is a casualty of business. In the past it has mostly occured either at universities or in the labs of a monopoly like Bell Labs. As an unintended consequence of breaking up the Bell monopoly, it also killed off one of the most productive labs in history. Researchers working at Bell Labs are credited with the development of radio astronomy, the transistor, the laser, the charge-coupled device (CCD), information theory, the UNIX operating system, and the programming languages C, C++, and S. C/C++ beget Java, Unix beget Linux and Android, information theory beget EVERYTHING tech related, the transistor needs no explaining, etc. Eight Nobel Prizes have been awarded for work completed at Bell Laboratories. Basically modern life as we know it would be very different if not for Bell Labs. Part of the reason this lab existed was because Bell was a monopoly and it could afford to divert money into these, it didn't need to worry about next year's upcoming competitor. It could take a more long term investment picture. I'm not advocating monopolies but saying that business itself is not conducive to long term heavy-lifting required types of scientific research. They by nature, have to be VERY short-sighted because the nature of competition being what it is. The only other options are domestic government support with it being done in Universities with it then being commercialized OR let it be done in another country that will fund it.

[Darrell KSR]

I received a $500 scholarship to go to ULM each semester. I paid tuition and books with it and had pocket money left over every semester.

Of course, back then greens fees at golf courses were all under $10, too. Cheap enough I could play every day in the summer at the local 9-hole municipal course. I want to say something like $2.75 and the pro would let us play all day on that. It was $1 more if you wanted to rent a pull cart.

[Darrell KSR]

To give a little more specificity.

In 1978-82, when I went to college, the cost of tuition at ULM (then Northeast Louisiana University) was $265 per semester, give or take a little. Books added another $100-150, depending on the semester.

Today: ULM tuition is still very "inexpensive," but instead of $265 per semester, it's $3829 per semester. Books are estimated at $1220 per semester, so it's a $5k per semester deal; it was $375-400 when I attended.

I had a Foundation Scholarship. The equivalent scholarship they give today appears to be a $6500 annual scholarship award. So rather than walking around with money in their pocket, they're having to come up with $3500 on their own. Now, that doesn't count living expenses, including housing.

I was broke, my parents couldn't afford anything to help me in school, so I lived at home. Fortunately, it was just 3 miles from campus. Home cooked meals, I bought my own brand new car from my work, etc. I had it made. Yeah, I missed out on a little.

Back to the point. NLU-ULM tuition/books increased from about $800 per year (two semesters--I always took the summer off to work and to coach baseball) to $10,000 per year.

My law school is where I decided to go into debt. I attended Tulane Law School, and paid my own way there as well. That. Was. Tough.

Tuition for Year # 1 was $6500 per year. That did not include my apartment rent, food, etc. I had a $1500 scholarship that reduced it to $5000. The rest came out of my savings and work I did during law school (I violated the school rule against working your freshman year. They knew I was doing it, because I worked in the law school library. I did closing shift each night, because it paid $0.50 an hour more, and because between 9pm-midnight, it slowed down and I could study on the job. Not a bad gig, maybe the best job I ever had.

2nd year it increased to $8,000 per year. No scholarship increase.
3rd year it increased to $10,500 per year. Due to persistent writing of my local legislators for three years, from before going to Tulane to every year there, I was awarded a legislative scholarship. Every legislator in the state of Louisiana has a legislative scholarship to Tulane--full tuition and fees. No requirements. Candy they can give out. If Lawson Swearingen had not come through with that scholarship, I don't know that I could have made tuition my final year. Upon graduation, Tulane raised tuition to $12,000 per year the year after I graduated. So from 1982 to 1986, it increased from $6500 to $12,000. Talk about going at the right time.

Today, tuition there is $51,010 a year. Add books, room and board, and Tulane estimates the annual cost at just a tick under $70,000 per year.

Are you kidding me? And that's for undergraduates as well as graduate school. More than $200,000 for a 3-year law degree, but almost $300,000 for a four year degree. If you do like most do these days, and get your four year degree in five years, it would be $350,000.

I don't know what all the education solutions are. Maybe they are exactly where they need to be. I enjoy reading the viewpoints expressed here, reading from a position of ignorance. But I am thankful my three oldest children chose very sensible educational solutions, although all of them went away to college, they attended in-state public schools that were reasonably affordable (all things considered).

I have two more on the horizon. My next one will be the "problem" one. I already eat Ramen noodles. What's cheaper than that to eat? Water?

[Doc]

And when Uncle Sam comes in a pays for college, does one believe the costs will go up or down? I'm not talking about what you will pay but rather what it will actually cost. Lets not pretend that stuff is free. Its not. Nothing is free. It might not cost you anything but somebody pays for it. So if the cost of an education today is $10,000 a year and next year the government is paying for it from tax dollars, does anybody believe the cost will go down, OR will universities suddenly see a cash cow in a very deep pocketed, happy to spend money federal government? Personally, I see a government that paid almost $400,000 to study swedish massage on rabbits, or $850,000 teaching mountain lions to walk on treadmills, so I'd full expect them to spend billions of dollars unwisely and the schools to take full advantage of that and RAISE the cost of education. Same reason the cost went up in the 80's when the gov't got more involved.

[Catonahottinroof]

To piggy back on that thought, the bills my daughter is generating at $54,000 per year for tuition and board, books, lab fees etc at $12,000 per year. 10 years ago that same bill per year was roughly $18,000 per the research I've done. The increase over the last 10 years is purely do to government guarantees on the financing in my opinion. It's insane should you get a useless degree, and partially insane even if you get a useful one.

To give a little more specificity.

In 1978-82, when I went to college, the cost of tuition at ULM (then Northeast Louisiana University) was $265 per semester, give or take a little. Books added another $100-150, depending on the semester.

Today: ULM tuition is still very "inexpensive," but instead of $265 per semester, it's $3829 per semester. Books are estimated at $1220 per semester, so it's a $5k per semester deal; it was $375-400 when I attended.

I had a Foundation Scholarship. The equivalent scholarship they give today appears to be a $6500 annual scholarship award. So rather than walking around with money in their pocket, they're having to come up with $3500 on their own. Now, that doesn't count living expenses, including housing.

I was broke, my parents couldn't afford anything to help me in school, so I lived at home. Fortunately, it was just 3 miles from campus. Home cooked meals, I bought my own brand new car from my work, etc. I had it made. Yeah, I missed out on a little.

Back to the point. NLU-ULM tuition/books increased from about $800 per year (two semesters--I always took the summer off to work and to coach baseball) to $10,000 per year.

My law school is where I decided to go into debt. I attended Tulane Law School, and paid my own way there as well. That. Was. Tough.

Tuition for Year # 1 was $6500 per year. That did not include my apartment rent, food, etc. I had a $1500 scholarship that reduced it to $5000. The rest came out of my savings and work I did during law school (I violated the school rule against working your freshman year. They knew I was doing it, because I worked in the law school library. I did closing shift each night, because it paid $0.50 an hour more, and because between 9pm-midnight, it slowed down and I could study on the job. Not a bad gig, maybe the best job I ever had.

2nd year it increased to $8,000 per year. No scholarship increase.
3rd year it increased to $10,500 per year. Due to persistent writing of my local legislators for three years, from before going to Tulane to every year there, I was awarded a legislative scholarship. Every legislator in the state of Louisiana has a legislative scholarship to Tulane--full tuition and fees. No requirements. Candy they can give out. If Lawson Swearingen had not come through with that scholarship, I don't know that I could have made tuition my final year. Upon graduation, Tulane raised tuition to $12,000 per year the year after I graduated. So from 1982 to 1986, it increased from $6500 to $12,000. Talk about going at the right time.

Today, tuition there is $51,010 a year. Add books, room and board, and Tulane estimates the annual cost at just a tick under $70,000 per year.

Are you kidding me? And that's for undergraduates as well as graduate school. More than $200,000 for a 3-year law degree, but almost $300,000 for a four year degree. If you do like most do these days, and get your four year degree in five years, it would be $350,000.

I don't know what all the education solutions are. Maybe they are exactly where they need to be. I enjoy reading the viewpoints expressed here, reading from a position of ignorance. But I am thankful my three oldest children chose very sensible educational solutions, although all of them went away to college, they attended in-state public schools that were reasonably affordable (all things considered).

I have two more on the horizon. My next one will be the "problem" one. I already eat Ramen noodles. What's cheaper than that to eat? Water?

[bigsky]

Yeah, Two-lane U aint reasonable.

But Montana State U is $8100/ in state tuition fees and books.

Good Engineering school, too

[Doc]

We all pay taxes, good on you for running a successful business I respect you for that. But as usual, you are eager to put words in my mouth I never ONCE said free, I DID say that costs had gotten heavily out of hand. I don't get free anything, nor do I want it. I have paid my share and still am, what I want is for those that follow me to not get screwed as they are right now. I left school with a masters degree in Chemistry with $43,000 in debt (and tuition has gone up even worse since I graduated) and discovered entry level jobs in chemistry pay around $35-40k/yr at the time. This is with working 20hr weeks during the school year and full time over the summer. Around 1/4 of my current monthly take-home income goes solely to my student loans. The 1970s were even MORE favorable for you, higher relative minimum wage AND lower college tuition. In 1972 tuition for the YEAR was around $1800 (in 2015 dollars), the cost is NOW $10,000/yr (these are for UK) and that is before even discussing books and other required materials (books have seen a similar rise in cost). So cut the crap on how BAD you had it back then. You have the usual "F*** you I got mine, you don't get yours" kinda attitude. In th 1970s you could work around 300 hours (around 8 weeks, doable in a summer) at 1970s minimum wage and pay for college. Currently, it is at 32 weeks and rapidly climbing many mid-range schools it is actually impossible now. Quite simply, someone could work full time the whole year and go to school for one semester. That is the only way they can do it if thhey don't have rich family members and don't want to take on debt. Pell grants have been slashed, tuition is sky high, books and other required fees are through the roof. I don't care how it is done, whether it is a national cap on tuition prices or subsidies, or what but at this rate, MANY people not from wealthy families are drowning in college debt. To make matters worse, most jobs with any advancement anymore require AT LEAST a BS degree.

None of this even begins to discuss room and board or food. If you want to sleep somewhere and eat, add more weeks to these totals.

Unfortuantely, cutting students able to go to college won't work because the job market won't bear it. All of the manual labor factory jobs are GONE. There just isn't many options left like there was before the 1970s and 80s happened.

EDIT: Removed ad hominem remark.

I actually started 3 or 4 attempts to reply to this post and either got interrupted or sidetracted. Once my tablet shut down. Perhaps it was karma. Who knows. I will say in preface that I don't want to this to be taken as anything negative or antagonistic so if it sounds as such, please accept my apology now.

When somebody says they have a $43,000 dollar debt for an education, to me that doesn't seem unreasonable. Maybe thats because I see an education as something of EXTREME VALUE. Personally I see it as something more valuable than say an entry level Mercedes Benz, but that's me. I see an education as an investment. If one were to take that money and invest it today, what would be your ROI in say 10 years? Would it double? Maybe. Now has that 43K investment in education, what has that done as far as your earning potential done? Has that masters in chemistry increased your earning potential by 10K a year? 20K a year? Lets say its $10,000 per year. Sounds like a solid investment when you take it out 40 years of employment. As for the debt on a student loan, I always find it odd. As a tax payer, I'm often chided when I complain about having to pay significant taxes in that I shouldn't complain, that I should be happy to pay them because in order to pay them I have to have a job. Yet you're ONE TIME $43K student loan is pretty much what you're complaining about? And I mean this example wise. Student love to complain about this yet its one time. Try paying that yearly, every year that you work....then have folks tell you that you should be happy to pay that because you have a job because that is pretty much what I incur every year. However it isn't $43K. This year you can multiply that by several times. Granted I sold my business and am taking a huge huge one time hit but still, I'm lucky? Good thing I have the governments help, right? Because if the government wasn't helping me, odds are I'd be in pretty bad shape. (DWS). It is OFFENSIVE when liberals claim the government is in any way responsible for my success. They are not. The roads I use are roads I paid for. The education I received is something I paid for (but we are off subject).
The other things I've noted about student loan debts: the ones who complain loudest about them usually are 1) students who are not yet in the work force 2) unemployed recent grads who have worthless degrees (like degrees in literature, fine arts, music, anthropology/archaeology, photography, religious studies, liberal arts, PE, History, any language) 3) politicians trying to get elected. Those who are not complaining are folks who have used their education to obtain valued degrees in order to get good paying jobs! I've yet to meet a doctor or lawyer who complains about his student loans. You seldom hear about the employed Yale, Harvard or Duke grad complain about his or her student loans.
Third, on a student loan, I'm not sure what the issue with paying it back is. Lets look at your 43K loan. I've always advocated a gov't backed student loan program thru private banks. Have the bank issue the loan at a low rate (3.5%) over a long period (20 year?) but backed by the federal gov't. On a 43K student loan, that equates to roughly $250 per month. To me, that type of investment doesn't seem like a lot. I've also found that when you pay for something, you actually give a damn about it. Its called "skin in the game". Nowdays, everybody wants something for free. Nobody wants to work for anything. Would it be nice to come out of college with no debt? Sure. It would also be nice to be married to a 20 year old nymphomanic gymnast, but we don't live in fantasy land.

[Doc]

To piggy back on that thought, the bills my daughter is generating at $54,000 per year for tuition and board, books, lab fees etc at $12,000 per year. 10 years ago that same bill per year was roughly $18,000 per the research I've done. The increase over the last 10 years is purely do to government guarantees on the financing in my opinion. It's insane should you get a useless degree, and partially insane even if you get a useful one.

My son starts college this fall. We did the pre-pay and will make it work however we need to. My daughter is likely going to grad school in the fall as well. We will also make that work. Would we like have the government pay for it? Sure however we are smart enough to know that when we say "free" we know that free isn't free. Free means the 50% won't pay (meaning the 50% that isn't me) so I'll have to pay thru more taxes to pay for MY KIDS as well as somebody else's kids, plus pay for the government inefficiency/waste and the new found university inefficiency/waste that comes with government programs.

[Catonahottinroof]

My daughter will commit to the military(any branch) as a commissioned officer for 8 years. In return for that commitment, Uncle Sam will eat the college debt. As a bonus to that situation, the government sees her as an active duty soldier beginning at day 1 at The Citadel. That means she will have 12 years of service at the end of her 8 year commitment. Another 8 year(or 2 four year re-ups) after that and she has a military retirement at 38 years of age and the ability to carry on in the military or start a career of her choosing with The Citadel on her resume, and leaving the military as a Lt. Colonel as a minimum. I still need to remind her from time to time that she has the world by the tail.

My son starts college this fall. We did the pre-pay and will make it work however we need to. My daughter is likely going to grad school in the fall as well. We will also make that work. Would we like have the government pay for it? Sure however we are smart enough to know that when we say "free" we know that free isn't free. Free means the 50% won't pay (meaning the 50% that isn't me) so I'll have to pay thru more taxes to pay for MY KIDS as well as somebody else's kids, plus pay for the government inefficiency/waste and the new found university inefficiency/waste that comes with government programs.

[Doc]

My daughter will commit to the military(any branch) as a commissioned officer for 8 years. In return for that commitment, Uncle Sam will eat the college debt. As a bonus to that situation, the government sees her as an active duty soldier beginning at day 1 at The Citadel. That means she will have 12 years of service at the end of her 8 year commitment. Another 8 year(or 2 four year re-ups) after that and she has a military retirement at 38 years of age and the ability to carry on in the military or start a career of her choosing with The Citadel on her resume, and leaving the military as a Lt. Colonel as a minimum. I still need to remind her from time to time that she has the world by the tail.

Yes, that is a great option. One that works for many. Me, I had parents who made a commitment to 5 children to pay for their education. I made an additional commitment to get a master's degree, and paid for that myself by working summers in the school as Darrell did. That involved preparing dog, goat and horse cadavers for anatomy class, and it was something that if I had my druthers I would not have done but I did it to avoid debt. Imagine having to do that all summer long in the Alabama heat! Additionally, there were other projects the anatomy or histology dept had us do. Likewise I made a similar commitment to my kids to pay for their education. I figure I created them and owe them whatever it take to prepare them for their future. I don't owe it to anybody else's kids. That is their responsibility. For me, I don't tell others how to raise their kids. I don't tell them how to prevent their kids. I don't tell them whether to abort their kids. I don't tell them who they can or can't marry. ETC. None of that is my business. Likewise it not my business to pay for them either.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

During that time I employed dozens if not hundreds of people who in turn paid taxes as well. As a small business, I didn't get any of the "nice tax breaks" to which you refer. In actuality I have had to pay some rather ridiculous taxes based on my profession each and every year. Some of which I'd consider bizarre, other that border on extortion, so please don't pretend to understand my business or how the government regulates me or my business. You don't have the faintest clue about it But thats another matter. I pay my fair share PLUS some to cover the roughly half of the population that pays NO INCOME tax. Yes, everybody benefits from the government, its just that some, myself included, pay for it while many don't and those prefer to suckle off its teat. I guess I'm suppose to be thankful because I have a job. As I stated, I took no government HANDOUT or HELP. There were no goverment bailouts for me or my business. I took a private loan to purchase my business and paid it off with my money. As a business owner, I have no unemployment benefits were it to go under. I have a private disability policy that I pay for. My insurance policies are mine, paid for by me, not Uncle Sam. My college paid for by my parent and a private student loan which I paid back in full. My retirement is funded by me (Oh, I put into Social Security but I'm not counting on that). So the "benefits" the goverment provided, like roads, etc... are things I PAID for with my tax dollars so they are things I actually purchased rather than handouts. Understand?

Oooh. I must have hit a sore spot.

Yeah, I get it. Typical entitlement viewpoint. Entitlements aren't limited to welfare programs and the poor, including those that have figure out how to scam the system(by the way is not representative of all those that are beneficiaries of entitlements) It also encompasses the wealthy and successful that feel they pay too much in taxes that have also played the system to their benefits.

You have proven my point by acknowledging that all people benefit from government. A fundamental difference between you and me is that YOU have decided that you have paid enough taxes. YOU have determined that the government takes more from YOU than the benefits that you receive. YOU feel that those that are basically incapable of paying INCOME taxes, after having to pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, state taxes are not carrying their "fair share".

I sense that you carry a thought that wealth creators are carrying too much burden. I believe that taxation should about an ability to pay. Poor people don't have that ability, but you want them to pay more and take less. Very humanitarian of you. Do you carry the same view about the wealthy who continue to abuse the system too? Somehow I don't feel like that's much of a concern to you. I could be wrong, but I'll let you to speak to that.

Finally, I never "pretended" to understand your business, and even said so in my statement. However, I understand small business, large businesses, corporate business, tax and financial implications, and pretty much anything else.

[KeithKSR]

Oooh. I must have hit a sore spot.

Yeah, I get it. Typical entitlement viewpoint. Entitlements aren't limited to welfare programs and the poor, including those that have figure out how to scam the system(by the way is not representative of all those that are beneficiaries of entitlements) It also encompasses the wealthy and successful that feel they pay too much in taxes that have also played the system to their benefits.

You have proven my point by acknowledging that all people benefit from government. A fundamental difference between you and me is that YOU have decided that you have paid enough taxes. YOU have determined that the government takes more from YOU than the benefits that you receive. YOU feel that those that are basically incapable of paying INCOME taxes, after having to pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, state taxes are not carrying their "fair share".

I sense that you carry a thought that wealth creators are carrying too much burden. I believe that taxation should about an ability to pay. Poor people don't have that ability, but you want them to pay more and take less. Very humanitarian of you. Do you carry the same view about the wealthy who continue to abuse the system too? Somehow I don't feel like that's much of a concern to you. I could be wrong, but I'll let you to speak to that.

Finally, I never "pretended" to understand your business, and even said so in my statement. However, I understand small business, large businesses, corporate business, tax and financial implications, and pretty much anything else.

I think you missed his point completely.

Small businesses bear the brunt of taxation, big corporations have fled the country due to the world's highest corporate tax rate.

[Doc]

Oooh. I must have hit a sore spot.

Yeah, I get it. Typical entitlement viewpoint. Entitlements aren't limited to welfare programs and the poor, including those that have figure out how to scam the system(by the way is not representative of all those that are beneficiaries of entitlements) It also encompasses the wealthy and successful that feel they pay too much in taxes that have also played the system to their benefits.

You have proven my point by acknowledging that all people benefit from government. A fundamental difference between you and me is that YOU have decided that you have paid enough taxes. YOU have determined that the government takes more from YOU than the benefits that you receive. YOU feel that those that are basically incapable of paying INCOME taxes, after having to pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, state taxes are not carrying their "fair share".

I sense that you carry a thought that wealth creators are carrying too much burden. I believe that taxation should about an ability to pay. Poor people don't have that ability, but you want them to pay more and take less. Very humanitarian of you. Do you carry the same view about the wealthy who continue to abuse the system too? Somehow I don't feel like that's much of a concern to you. I could be wrong, but I'll let you to speak to that.

Finally, I never "pretended" to understand your business, and even said so in my statement. However, I understand small business, large businesses, corporate business, tax and financial implications, and pretty much anything else.

Nope. Clearly your reading comprehension is lacking

I'm sick of the idea that my taxes level is inadequate. I sick of the assumption that my annual check to the US government well into the 5 figures (or this year well into the six figures) is somehow inadequate and that I should feel guilty for not bearing "my fair share". Somehow folks bitching about a student loan of $43,000 that they incur ONCE in their lifetime debt that allows them to earn a salary for the rest of their life is a horrible tradegy but when people complain about a recurring annaul hit of two, three or four time that EACH AND EVERY YEAR are seen as bad people who are not willing to do their civic duty.

All people benefit from the government but a small percentage pay for the majority of it, and its a shame that that small majority is constantly made to feel that they don't do enough by those who don't pay any or who pay far less. You imply the gov't gave or helped me. They didn't. I EARNED everything I got. Everything the government provided me was PAID FOR by my tax dollars. I have no issue with paying taxes. I have never had an issue with it. Personally I believe every individual should pay taxes because when that happens then and only then will there be a true concern on how our money is spent and wasted. But the idea that my success is because of the government is a pile of liberal ****, and they can take that and shove it so far up their ass that I don't ever want to see it or smell it again. My success is because I was willing to live in a trailer in rural Alabama while my wife lived in Oregon so we could make ends meet. I spent countless hours studying. We lived on hot dogs and Mac and cheese for years and purchased rejected foods liked dented cans because they were cheaper. We didn't own a house or have insurance once she left her job to raise our kid. I took a job working 6pm to 8am because it paid an extra 2K a year then moved to FL because of the opportunity. I took a loan to buy a business and paid it back...none of which the gov't helped with. That is the story of my success. The gov't had NOTHING to do with it.

[Doc]

I wanted to add after "stewing" over it last night:

1) Liberal politicians in general, complain about the loopholes the the millionaire and billionaire take advantage of. They constantly blame them for not paying enough taxes. The rich didn't write the laws. The politicians did. Those would be politicians like Charlie Rangle, who cheats on his taxes in order to pay less. Or the Clintons who write off used underwear donations! And yes, there are Republicans too. But the point is some of the laws were created by the Congress for their benefit and the benefit of their friends.

2) many of the laws are there to establish equity. Many of the tax breaks given to the lower income are not received by "the rich". Without ways to keep taxes on the wealthy reasonable, the people will find other ways to keep their money. Most rich people are smart or have smart people work for them. If the government want to take too much of their money they will find methods to keep such as exiting this country. When that happens, the collected tax of $0 isn't a whole lot

3) Small businesses get no tax breaks or incentives. Large ones do for good reason. A company that employees thousands generates millions in tax revenue by employeeing those people. If a city or state can incentivize a company to come, a tax break is worth it. That isn't the companies fault so quit blaming the business. They are looking for the best deal just like everybody else.

4) The left loves the "corporations pay no taxes" BS. My former business paid no annual income taxes because like most small business all profits were distributed to the owners who did pay taxes individually. My company rarely showed a profit hence didn't pay corporate taxes but there was nothing nefarious about it.

5) There are three ways to address a shortcoming of cash/debt. Either you spend less, collect more or a combination of the two. What I find irritating is when people who are carrying none of the burden complain because those who are are not carrying enough. This is akin to the stone worker who is sitting on his ass complaining because I'm only carrying 100lbs.

Now I understand you likely understand all this. By the tone of your reply you seem to feel I'm upset, or as you say you hit a sore spot. Not the case. Perhaps you read it that way because you would expect me to be touchy. Most people are after they have been asked to give money, paid their taxes and then repeated hammered for not doing their civic duty. Then on top of that they are suppose to thank the government because they have a job and because somehow the government helped them be successful. IMO I was successful DESPITE the government

[kingcat]

For all of it's flaws the system works as well as any as long as there is a balance between liberal and conservative views. each has a dark side on the extreme left and right...and one is NOT better than the other.

There are two entities that I believe have the will and ability to destroy our freedom. They are corporate power ( including pharmaceuticals) and the military industrial complex. Each are fueled without concern for the American people or individual freedoms, and each are capable and practiced at great deception.

Keep those in check and we survive along with our vote. Side with them and one day there will be no vote or individual freedom to concern ourselves with.
How that may or may not relate to this discussion is up to you folks. But I will not believe otherwise nor ever support those who profit by dividing opinions and fueling hate.

And the idea that the poor corporations were forced to operate outside of this country because of unfair taxation at home is a huge farce. It's because profit outweighs patriotism at nearly all levels.

We are not a struggling people...but we are a spoiled and pampered nation at this point.

And soon the God I trust will return and do away with everything we've accumulated and assume divine authority over us all. If we believe that, we prepare and hope for it.

If you don't believe that then there is a division here that cannot be bridged imo. Because, understandably so, profit then assumes the vacuum and the role of god.

As Dylan said, "everybody has to serve somebody"

Might be a rock'n' roll adict prancing on the stage
Might have money and drugs at your commands, women in a cage
You may be a business man or some high degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.