watch the video...warning, the video is of a shooting and the victim dies
http://www.ksat.com/news/ksatcom-exc...olved-shooting
watch the video...warning, the video is of a shooting and the victim dies
http://www.ksat.com/news/ksatcom-exc...olved-shooting
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I couldn't see the victims left arm completely, looked like the right hand was raised when the shot was fired.
My wife looked at earlier, said the same thing as Keith. Couldn't tell. I'm just not one to second guess those kind of decisions much. I saw one once where I swore the guy was surrendering, only to have a different angle show he was pulling a pistol out of his rear waistband. May have even been posted here; I don't recall.
Maybe there's a better video somebody has, or they can enhance this one so people can see better. My wife said that she just couldn't tell--obviously, she was disturbed that one arm was raised in the air, thinking maybe the other one was as well, which would have been horrible.
right arm up but left arm is blocked by that pole, there is a reason they suddenly fired from that range. I would have to see their body camera if available.
The way officers are being murdered, can't blame the guys, something happened with that guy to cause them to shoot.
11 officers murdered since Aug 20, another today. cold blooded murder.
He moved quick but I can't tell if that was his body moving with the impact of the shot or he started to move and the police shot him.
Believe nothing of what you hear only half of what you see. This is a good example of how third party video evidence can not tell the whole story.
If there is no weapon on the deceased, I would like to hear what the officers have to say. I don't know enough about the training behind when to use deadly force or not.
Had it been a police camera the angle of telephone poll would have been considered an example of a conspriacy angle.
Doc, I tried it a couple of times, but that video site won't work for me. Do you have another link? Thanks.
MOLON LABE!
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I've looked at this three times. Honestly, I can't tell much from that distance.
If there is anything out of the ordinary or out of sync with Bexar County's Policy & Procedure, it will come out.
I'd like to know a lot more than just this video and the brief news account of what happened. Sorry, there just isn't enough there to make a decision on at this point.
MOLON LABE!
Outrageous. That is cold blooded murder
Hopefully they had body cams on, that will fill in some gaps.Originally Posted by suncat05
It is if it went down as it appeared with a partial view.
The way it appears to me, the guy was surrendering and was shot. Reports have it he was previously stun gunned unsuccessfully. Imo that matters little. If the guy decides to surrender then he is giving up. That does not give the police a license to shoot him. Reports also have it that the had been trying to apprehend him for some time. Again, doesn't matter imo as the guy decided to surrender. The police acted as judge, jury and executioner. Lethal force should be the very last option and only when lives are in jeopardy. The police are there to protect all, even the accused.
However, that is based solely on video. As more evidence comes out I hope to change that opinion. I hope the officers actions were justified
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
It's murder if both arms are in the air unless there's something else we're not seeing. I can't see one arm, and hopefully the second video that hasn't been shown yet has a different angle. It may show the exact same thing. I'm just trying to step cautiously here.
First time through I was totally on officers side, now not so sure. the pole hides his left hand and arm.
He has arms up, then he steps behind the pole and you can only see the right arm up and it looks like the left arm moves but hard to tell. However, he has on no shirt, loose shorts which if he had a weapon it would have been seen unless it is a knife. But if a knife the officers are far enough away that he couldn't have done any harm. Then after they shoot him, they don't rush over to check on him, just very casual.
Pretty sure they had no idea they were being filmed. imo, it doesn't look good for them.
There's supposed to be a second video showing more, was announced by the sheriff, don't think it's been released.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
Probably needed some touching up. It would be prudent to release any such video immediately
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Again, officer involved shooting here. The posted video does not give you enough information to make a valid determination as to what happened.
And the distance required by law enforcement agencies for the use of deadly force is 21 feet, or less. If he had a knife, or any other type of blade in his left hand, the view of which is obstructed by the pole in the video, and if he said something to the officers that was threatening, well, even though he was clearly at the disadvantage, he still had the ability to carry through with the threat. "IF" that is the case, and given that he had fought with them previously, then it's a justifiable shooting.
Or not. We still do not know the results of the investigation yet.
And if it turns out to NOT be a justifiable shooting, then they have to pay for their actions.
MOLON LABE!
I want to be sure we are talking about the same man. We are talking about the guy who walks out with empty hands and no shirt, right? I mean we can't see his left hand the instant the bullets enter his chest but we do see them seconds prior and there isnt a weapon, either blade or firearm. Now he could have had one in his rectum and retrived it while behind the car. If he did then those are excellent officers. But I find the assumptions folk are making because we can't see his left hand as he is shot are sort of bizarrre. I see them as pure speculation for justification based on nothing. I guess he could have had a bazooka, I mean we can't see so really don't know because there is a pole there, right??? So make something up, right? Why not.
Last edited by Doc; 09-04-2015 at 07:44 PM.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
If I had not seen a video that looked worse than this, where the "victim" had a gun hidden in the waistband behind him, I might buy your argument. If I'm not mistaken, somebody posted it here a couple of years ago. It looked horrible, until another angle showed the guy who looked like he was surrendering going for his gun in his waistband.
Sarcasm doesn't make your argument. A complete picture will.
Here's the film I was talking about.
The guy was clearly putting the rifle on the ground. His other arm was not apparent. Fortunately, an alert police officer saw him retrieving the hidden gun in his waistband and shot and killed him prior to him imparting any harm.
https://fbcdn-video-a-a.akamaihd.net...447817d89b94b4
http://www.westernjournalism.com/9-s...you-may-think/
By the way, I had to watch it two or three times, even though I knew what had happened, before I saw the hidden gun. It appeared the "victim" was doing everything in complying with the police officer's instructions.
My understanding is this is a training video. Everybody watching the video would've assumed that the "victim" here was murdered. Instead, he was shot to prevent innocent people from being harmed or killed, even though it certainly didn't look like that.
The truth on this one will come out. There is only one truth here. I'm not defending anyone; in fact, I think there's been unanimity in condemnation if the facts are as they "appear" on the video. But it doesn't require hiding a gun in a rectum to present a real danger, one that the common man overlooks as we all may.
Last edited by Darrell KSR; 09-04-2015 at 08:04 PM.
+There are execeptions to any rule. Sure you are going to find the rare exception were there is going to be the weapon and unfortunately that will result in the officer getting shot. However its ridiculious to take EVERY SINGLE INICIDENT where an person is shot by an officer and make it into a justified shooting by fabricating scenarios based on nothing. There is nothing to suggest the victim has a weapon. Here there is a pole that blocks his left hand so now we create the possibility there is a gun? The guy walks out with no shirt and raises his hands. While you say sarcasm won't make my argument, neither will creating situations based on nothing. This is part of the reason many people don't trust the police is situations like this. If what it appears happened, those concerns are justified. And when people try to hide those concerns by creating a smoke screen of bull crap, is it any wonder that there is a large group of people who are pissed? No individual should have the right to shoot an unarmed person who is not threatening them or any other person. That includes a law officer.
Now I admit much of my frustration over this has been from reading mutliple boards. The number of people who justify this because they can't see the victim's left hand and that it "might have had a weapon" is staggering. There is no evidence at all for that argument, and if there was I have no doubt the police would have release that immediately.
Last edited by Doc; 09-04-2015 at 09:29 PM.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
So because this happens now the police can shoot any perpetrator? In essence that is the argument. He could have had a gun hidden behind his back, since this guy in this video did. No doubt the police need to be on their toes and ready. They need to be cautious and aware. They need to take ZERO chances. They need to do anything and everything to be sure they make it home each and every night. I don't disagree with that one bit. But because you present a video of one criminal making a move that looks like he is surrendering does not mean that every one is doing the same. There are two different cases that have nothing to do with each other.
I want to state here that I've not condemed the officers. You've stated the truth will come out. I agree 100%. I've avoided making assumptions like there is a weapon. There is were I find a problem. There is nothing to suggest there is one. So in the absence of anything, just fabricateing it doesn't make sense to me. What I stated was based solely on the video because that is all we have. As I stated, I hope more evidence comes out and shows the officers actions justified however solely on the video, I do not believe it was.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I just suggested what could be. I never said that there was a weapon in his hand, I said there could have been. And I am going under the idea that maybe it was a blade of some sort, because that certainly is plausible, and why I mentioned the 21 foot rule.
What is also possible is that these two officers shot this guy in cold blood. If so, they need to pay for their actions. Plain & simple. And I am not taking either side on this, but I've been in this kind of situation before myself a couple of times, minus the gunshots.
So let's see what the facts of the case say when they're released? And if these Deputies did something wrong, then, yes, by all means, they need to suffer the consequences of their actions. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. I'm with you, Doc. 100% with you. But in all fairness, sometimes things that we see on video are not exactly as they seem. Reference the video that Darrell alluded to, which, IIR, you may have possibly originally posted? And as posted by those guys watching this incident from what appears to be a long distance away.
MOLON LABE!
News report says Flores had a knife, and an as yet unreleased video shows the knife. You can see his hand go behind him before he turns toward the officers.
I don't see a rush to defend the officers on here, I see a wait and see attitude. That attitude certainly seems justified after events of the last year have netted a bunch of erroneous rush to judgement events.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GDvhe6TF09c
Horribly naive to go beyond this, Doc, when you're dealing with life and death. Your rectum comments were absurd. Thank God you don't think like a thug, and I'm glad you're not trained as a police officer. Life is about exceptions. Death is, too.
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If that is accurate and there was a knife, then the question becomes was there a reasonable fear the officer or others lives were in jeopardy?
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
Exactly.
The facts will prove out, whatever they may be. It may be a 99% chance they committed murder. It will be shown either way. It is absurd to suggest that a person can't have a weapon and present a threat because you see one arm up.
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And your bringing one instance in no less naive. There could have been a second shooter on the grassy knoll. I can present a video to show one of those too. I see that as the same type of argument. What happened in one event should only act as a reminder that the police need to be extremely cautious but not as anything more. I agree with that 100%. They should take no chances at all. However that does not give them a license to kill without cause in any situation. In my opinion, the "it could have" excuse isn't good enough when someobody dies. Others might disagree.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I'm not at all naive. I am aware of many ways in which a weapon can be concealed. In fact, I have one of them myself. You simply aren't aware of them, and suggesting others who are possessed of more knowledge that you regarding the concealing of weapons are thinking in a bizarre manner is horribly naive and misguided.
Check out concealed holsters if you get a chance (and if you have any interest). The video I included isn't some rare Loch Ness monster sighting.
I meant it as a compliment that you don't think like a thug. It probably tells you a little about me that I do. When you have had your life threatened, as I have, and been trained, as I have, even a tiny percentage of what law enforcement officers have received, you learn to look for everything.
No offense intended, Doc. It's not what you think.
Now, having said all that, I am in complete agreement with you related to them not being given carte blanche to kill. I suspect you are dead right, no pun intended, and it is murder. Just let the facts come out, and it doesn't require a grassy knoll or a rectum reference for the situation to be different than what you and I both believe it is.
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Last edited by Darrell KSR; 09-05-2015 at 03:58 PM.
If he had a knife it's not even a question. Suncat mentioned the 21 foot rule. Within seven yards a knife can match or beat a gun, you drop anyone with one esp if they are trying to catch you by having one and pretending to surrender.
People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinkin' I'm back.
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