A great day for freedom and liberty.

[kingcat]

I certainly can't claim to be a college educated theologian, so I say this only as someone who honestly prayed to God for understanding from my youth up (being torn between several religions)

There is only one sin that can't be forgiven.

Even when times past are revealed as they still exist while we stand before the very One who created it.

Even as those things done in secret, whether in defiance or in ignorance, will be brought to light for every man and woman.
And then we will understand that God cannot fellowship with those actions, because if they are not covered from view by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, they continue to exist just as Einstein imagined.
God is both the Beginning and End. Not limited to our one directional journey through time and our convenient habit of burying the past.
It all exists simultaneously to our Creator, and without constraints of any kind...known or unknown to mankind.

So there is one sin that results in death and separation from God and heaven.
That unforgivable sin is non belief...just as it was in the Garden of Eden.

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:
But of the tree that gives the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat: for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

God's word accomplishes exactly what He says, and He had to make a way for us to find leading back to Him, and of our own free will. He did just that.

So there is one sin for which there is no forgiveness, and that is to deny this..

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

And whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

..Jesus

The whole of Christianity is defined there. And a great price was paid for each of us to cover the most enormous of sins. If we believe that, we naturally strive to get closer and closer to God.
Because we love Him, not because we fear Him.

And God teaches us. Real love covers a multitude of sin.

I had to add this one post and promise not to make as habit of it on this forum.

[Doc]

Everyone has an opinion.
“You have your rights, no one is taking your rights away. You are demanding special rights to determine which rights your can strip from others or infringe on others based on your religious beliefs.” Is this not what the “Same-sex” issue is doing. They are using the court system to dictate their views onto the public. If you think the public is for gay marriages, you haven’t talked to many people outside your own group. You want to put “religious beliefs” as a Christian only religion. Anyone can have a “religious belief”, even atheists.

The baker who refused to bake a cake is another point. As was stated, “The baker who refused to do a cake for a gay wedding on religious grounds has been fined $135,000. Clearly a punitive judgment b/c gay couples are part of a "protected class"; you MUST do business with them if you do business with anyone.” This is an infringement on the baker’s right to refuse service to anyone. However, because they are in a “Protected class” they take the baker to court and the baker gets a$135,000 fine. Was that the only baker in town? Didn’t the customer have a right to go elsewhere? Then the court ordeal was simply because “I’m in a protected class” and I’m going to sue you.” If that happened to a customer that was in the public, “UNPROTECTED class”, it would never seen the inside of a courtroom.

Summary, this country was founded on laws that were made for the masses, not just a small group. Now we have small groups that want to use the courts to advance their cause. This country did quite well with man/woman marriages for over two hundred years. Don’t you think there was a reason for it being that way? Look at the problems gay marriages have caused already. Governments have to rewrite laws to accommodate the court decisions. As was started earlier, “This issue of gay marriages is a way to get “A foot in the door”. Meaning there is more to the movement than just gay marriages. Gay marriages have opened an assortment of problems of which we haven’t seen the last.

You have the facts wrong. You need to read the thread. Unfortunately most have the facts wrong. The fine wasn't for refusing to do the cake. Darrell does a good job of explaining it. The refusal to bake a cake is a misconception. If a business doesn't want to perform a service, not doing it is quite easy not to do legally. All one needs to do is price themselves out of the market. I do it all time. I have clients and patients I don't want to treat for a multitude of reasons. Their bills go up until they go elsewhere.

But gays are not faultless in this either. Lets looks that Chick Filet. I still hear about how they discriminate against gays. What a bunch of crap. They don't. The owner stated his religious beliefs. They were his religious beliefs period. He believes homosexuality is wrong, nothing more. His company does not nor has it ever been accuse or convicted of discrimination in its hiring or serving practices yet the intolerant left who demand tolerance have painted them the evil villain. There is a difference between somebodies beliefs and their actions, and until people realize this, both sides bear the blame.

[CitizenBBN]

Not what I said, you are much smarter than that.

I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, probably should have used a smiley.

But in seriousness I don't think many Christians would see my interpretation of scripture as "false witness", but they could couldn't they? I do find that to be shaky ground, the history of Christianity is laden with people accused similarly who in some cases later were seen as founders of one or another Protestant faith.

I don't want to say that everything is fungible, but I do think the Bible is a tough book to be absolute about, esp. given its origins and that it is a compiled book written by many people and with many other scriptures left out. There are more than a few tenets in there that aren't followed by many Christian groups, which is why bacon is so popular in this country.

[jazyd]

I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, probably should have used a smiley.

But in seriousness I don't think many Christians would see my interpretation of scripture as "false witness", but they could couldn't they? I do find that to be shaky ground, the history of Christianity is laden with people accused similarly who in some cases later were seen as founders of one or another Protestant faith.

I don't want to say that everything is fungible, but I do think the Bible is a tough book to be absolute about, esp. given its origins and that it is a compiled book written by many people and with many other scriptures left out. There are more than a few tenets in there that aren't followed by many Christian groups, which is why bacon is so popular in this country.

Chuck, there are many parts of the Bible open to interreputation, I know I spelled that wrong senior moment. Take Revelation the whole book, if anyone tells you that totally understand it just walk away before you call them aliar because they don't totally understand it.
Two churches I have been a member of here in Miss. The first that we were members of for 21 years, I was baptized again there, accepted Jesus there and was ordained a deacon there. The second, where I am a member now, I have been and am now a deacon there. In 2Timothy, Timothy lays out the requirements for being a deacon and he says that we shall be but the husband of one wife. Now, does that mean only one wife forever and never being divorced, or does it mean one wife at that moment in time. The first church I belonged to and was ordained in didn't seem to care as half the deacon council seemed to have been married more than once with at least one guy being married 5 times...I think he must have been a nut....and the church I am at now says you can never have been divorced even though the Bible does say a man can divorce his wife if she has been unfaithful. Personally I don't agree with either church but since it isn't spelled out I accept it, no big deal to me even though I don't think a man should be married 5 times and still serve as a deacon.

But the teachings of God and Jesus, and Paul is very clear about homosexuals, they will not inherit the kingdom of God if they continue to live in that sin. Can they be washed, certainly and it is spelled out that way. But again imo, when someone claims to be a Christian but then openly proclaims it is a great and wonderful day that gays can marry, he or she is openly putting out false witness and words that can influence others into thinking that the gay lifestyle is fine and dandy. For me what they do in their house I could care less, but if offends me to see they are able to marry and their parades totally offend me.

I don't criticize different denominations like some unless they openly disobey what they Bible explicityl says. I belong to a Southern Baptist Church because of my wife. Was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, taught by nuns. And I disagree with those in the Baptist Church that claim Catholics are a part of a cult. Not my job to judge that. I know Catholics that are much better Christians than baptists.

I just want those that are non believers or kinda believers that are seeking the truth to know that God condemns the homosexual lifestyle in both the New and Old Testament and any that say otherwise is lying. And they are much like the antiChrist that spreads false witness. As bad as my time before God on judgement day will be, I don't want to be anywhere near Jimmy Carter unless I am in a balcony watching.

I really have gotten a better picture of you and doc thru this, have enjoyed reading what each of you have had to say. Would love to sit down with you sometime at a game, you can have a beer and I will drink my coke like I did with doc and Mick. I don't drink because of the alcoholics in my family.

[Krank]

http://news.yahoo.com/man-stabs-seve...163839733.html

[Crazy4Blue]

http://news.yahoo.com/man-stabs-seve...163839733.html

Not sure I understand your meaning behind posting this link? Is it, because one Orthodox Jew acts insane that that means all religious people are bad?

[Darrell KSR]

What a nutjob.

Police said the attacker, Yishai Schlissel, who was arrested at the scene for Thursday's attack, had been released from prison just three weeks ago, after serving a sentence for stabbing several people at the parade in 2005.

[Krank]

Not sure I understand your meaning behind posting this link? Is it, because one Orthodox Jew acts insane that that means all religious people are bad?

No.

It was posted because there seems to still be a lot of folks who either scoff or shoulder-shrug that GLBT folks are not at risk in modern society AND that religious extremism has a not so great history along those lines. That is why I have tried to make very clear throughout this thread that the problem, IMO, is with extremists who sometimes carry a lot of weight in our culture.

Absolutist biblical literalism, in my view, is extremist, or close to it, in this country, particularly at this time. It is not a majority view, IMO, when all Christians are counted. Far from it, in my view.

Hate crimes on GLBT folks have sometimes come from religious extremists in this country. I also personally have more than a few GLBT friends who have, quite literally, escaped from certain violent danger from within their own extremist families, so I thought it worth noting, for those who either have no idea or who are skeptical, that it is STILL dangerous to be gay.

The fact that Jerusalem can be a microcosm of multiple religious traditions, including extremists from Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, makes a story like the one linked even more interesting, thus I thought it worthwhile to post.

Why was the most negative conclusion the one you jumped to first? Do you think all Agnostics like me hate all religious people, believe they are all insane, and believe their takes on their belief systems are all identical and worthless?

[Krank]

What a nutjob.

Police said the attacker, Yishai Schlissel, who was arrested at the scene for Thursday's attack, had been released from prison just three weeks ago, after serving a sentence for stabbing several people at the parade in 2005.

Yeah, somehow he got by a ton of security (I don't doubt this because we are talking about Jerusalem and there is NOWHERE in the world that has to be on high alert as much as that city), hid in some supermarket alcove (memory not clear there), and leaped out, knife bared, when the paraders got started.

Nuts like him believe THEY are worthy of judging on behalf of their god, which is unquestionably a sin, in and of itself, but that matters not to such evil people. Selective self-control and selective biblical interpretation is an unfortunate hypocrisy visited upon by religious extremists. They typically tunnel-vision upon one sin or political notion and obsession takes over reality.

Taking the leap, from extremist belief to planned violence, is something our world has to do something about, meaning that IMO there are relatively few who would cross that line on their own, but the more world population increases, the more nuts of that breed will be out there, and the more diligent world society needs to be in ensuring that peaceful people, whose so-called "sin" occurs in private behind closed doors, are not attacked for that private, consenting adults activity.

JMO.

[kingcat]

True belief cuts both ways..

It is much easier to judge the world as undeserving, than it is to forsake it and personally take the good news to everyone who will hear.

And I'm as guilty as the next person.

[jazyd]

This is about individual rights, not a religion, not states rights. The majority does not have the right to oppress the minority in this country.

We have the rule of law: "endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights". I dont see any qualifications in that statement, do you?

I support the constitution and all of the amendments, and the idea of limited government. Libertarians like me have supported these ideas for forty years.

We left a little bit of the Dark Ages behind yesterday. The evil of fanatic religious fundamentalism at work every where in the world; but not here in our counntry. I'm so proud.

WOW, didn't know I was a fanatic as in an evil person because I oppose gay marriage, how nice of you to notice. And the 'guy' who dresses in a dress, curlers, makeup, high heels or the one who marches down a street with his ass hanging out of a leather piece of whatever he is normal and ok and right with the world. interesting. So the rights of 2% are more important than me, interesting. And the dark ages, hmmm, well I think I prefer the dark ages vs the flaming ass walking down the street flaunting his new sexuality while sucking a '....'

About that debt doc, wont' happen because DC and politicians from all over are not worried about you and me, they are worried about the smaller % in most everything. Get our money, give it away to those who refuse to work, take care of the 2%, pad their accounts, give it to countries and 'leaders' who hate us, and screw the guy who owns a business or who works. I think that about sums up politicians

[jazyd]

I have to wonder how our Founding Fsthers would feel when they wrote in the declaration that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their "Creator" with certain unalienable rights thst they would be called "evil religious fanatics" for expressing their faith.

They probably would have gotten on the boat and gone back east