Freedom and liberty took another step forward today, with the supreme court overturning another prejudiced law. Loving couples, no matter the gender, may now join in marriage and commit their life together.
A very good day.
Freedom and liberty took another step forward today, with the supreme court overturning another prejudiced law. Loving couples, no matter the gender, may now join in marriage and commit their life together.
A very good day.
I agree about today as well. Not so much on yesterday's big decision though. I am still in total disagreement with the federal government and the law. I should not be forced to buy something from the government that I neither need nor want.
Last edited by suncat05; 06-26-2015 at 09:58 AM. Reason: change of word
MOLON LABE!
Charles Lane
@ChuckLane1
5m
You think it doesn't matter that the Senate turned down Robert Bork and Doug Ginsburg then withdrew? Kennedy was Reagan's 3rd choice.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChuckLane...9425575937?p=v
U really think players are going to duke without being paid over Kentucky?--Gilbert Arenas, 9/12/19
He said he was going to "fundamentally transform the Unites States of America." He's done it in so many ways.
My Etsy Shop; https://rogerelliottphotos.etsy.com
I'm looking at this from a purely legal viewpoint. Politically, if the people of a state want to say marriage includes 2 people of the same sex, or 5 people, or a man and his livestock, they have the power to do so and more power to them.
Legally, Kennedy's opinion is a bunch of feel-good gobbledygook that would get a Con Law student a C-. Someone posted yesterday about the ACA opinion that it could be summarized as "FEELZ>LAW," and we have more of the same today. (Ironically, Roberts yesterday, who wrote the ACA majority opinion, and Roberts today, who dissents, seem to be 2 different people.)
These cases set us on a very dangerous path of legal review. For those who say "I don't care--I got my way," you should hope the shoe is not on the other foot in the future. It might not feel so comfy.
Last edited by KSRBEvans; 06-26-2015 at 10:53 AM.
U really think players are going to duke without being paid over Kentucky?--Gilbert Arenas, 9/12/19
I'm socially liberal, which confounds many of my very conservative friends, and fiscally very conservative, which confounds my very liberal friends. While I am happy that there is a recognition of rights available to members of the same sex, there's a churning in my gut about how we reached it.Originally Posted by KSRBEvans
I'm not a fan of judicial legislating and would prefer the states decide these matters, and that aspect that bothers me. The result of the ruling itself doesn't as I think everyone needs to choose for themselves what makes them happy and as long as it isn't something that negatively impacts others in society then the government needs to keep its nose out of private affairs.
The reason the ruling bothers me is that some of the it can lead to rulings down the road that can subvert the Constitutional rights of Americans. We are seeing governmental over reactions that are currently negating the rights of Americans due to political correctness, it is the duty of the courts to uphold the Constitution, not be the PC police.
I agree with this. In 2010 I penned a resolution that was adopted by the commission in support of equal rights for same sex couples. The President was still checking the way the wind was blowing.
This may be the only time I ever visit, or even read, a thread on the Barber Shop (thank you, Pedro), but I am very very happy about the Supreme Court ruling today FINALLY recognizing GLBT folks as having every bit of right to the love and happiness previously only granted to straight folks, based upon an archaic understanding of biology, culture, and humanity's core potential.
The very idea that GLBT folks arbitrarily CHOOSE that they are attracted to the same sex, i.e. that it is some rebellious "deviant lifestyle choice" has always been one of the most ignorant (literally speaking) political stances ever conceived.
It's always been simple biology.
We all know, with obvious physical manifestations easily detectable, when we are sexually attracted to someone, and who that someone is. The notion that GLBT folks are somehow exempt from "knowing themselves" in the same way anyone straight does on a sexual level is denying what you can see with your own eyes if you were a fly on a wall in a the bedroom of two lovers who were not straight. Guess what? Same biological physical manifestations of LOVE and sex that non-GLBT folks have.
To be clear, "physical manifestations of attraction" does not equal "intercourse". We all know there is much more to love and sex than THAT. Still, sex is sex, and we are built to do it because we DEEPLY want it. Gay folks are no different. Not one bit. The mode of intercourse has now been defined as immaterial, as it always should have been. Biological facts are not in existence to be reduced to a footnote. GLBT folks KNOW who they are, every bit as much as straight folks do.
These good people, Americans proud as anyone else, should never have been relegated to a lesser status in this nation based upon a LIE about WHO they ARE and ALWAYS have been and it has been corrected TODAY. That is what WE do in America. We FIX injustices and THAT is what separates us from so many nations in this troubled world.
Acknowledging GLBT as the same also makes US, THE United States of America, a stronger country, through and through, because NOW this segment of our society can join in, feeling fully fitted for the Stars and Stripes they have always wanted to have emblazoned across their chests. Simply put, a HAPPY people are a STRONG people.
It won't take too much time for us to all look back on the era before GLBT marriage rights existed as a strange, unfortunate, and wholly unnecessary era for how gays and straights live together. Looking forward, we will know that it was absolutely the correct decision, by basic human standards of how to treat one another ("as one would have them treat you") and by the GREAT historical American tradition of MORE liberty instead of less.
Finally Gay men, Lesbian women, Bisexuals, and Transgender (MtF and FtM) can stop fearing that the nation does not acknowledge them as equally deserving of the same benefits of love, marriage, family, and happiness (a very popular political combination spoken by politicians, left, middle, and right).
We are America, the greatest country in the World and the greatest country EVER in this grand Earth's history. We have proven AGAIN today that such an assertion is strongly justified by understanding that treating people of different sexual orientations as they always should have been treated... THE SAME, because they ARE the same as any other American who contributes to the furthering of liberty and justice for ALL.
Last edited by Krank; 06-26-2015 at 08:10 PM.
"Shut your eyes and you'll burst into flame"
It's about to get to 'I Love Lucy' chocolate/conveyer belt chaos levels at the Westboro Baptist Church sign factory!!
- taken from Twitter
My Etsy Shop; https://rogerelliottphotos.etsy.com
Religious Liberty took a giant step backwards today. Disagree with the decision and the "reasoning" for it. Basically legislating from the bench. As a believer in Christ, I'm taught to love those with whom I disagree, unlike Westboro Baptist. I have family involved in that lifestyle and while I disagree for moral/religious reasons I do genuinely love them. On another note this "victory" will not be satisfying enough for many of those aligned with the LGBT movement. Only when ALL opposition or dissent is removed, AKA the "evil" traditional conservative Christian church and its views. Then and only then will there be satisfaction.
Last edited by UKRxman93; 06-26-2015 at 10:52 PM.
Christianity is still WAY more powerful than any one group concerned with their civil rights.
There are very few institutions in this country with greater support, financially, emotionally, spiritually for those who believe, and in force of numbers, than Protestantism and Catholicism. There will always be very conservative believers amongst those groups. There always has been. That will not change... unless conservative Christians, themselves, choose to change.
Are their rights to hold their beliefs and live freely in their faith being "killed off" by GLBT folks being allowed to marry? How does a small minority (GLBT is tiny in proportion to Christian numbers whether you are counting all Christians or just the most strongly conservative) destroy a faith that has existed for thousands of years and brainwash them into submission?
I would say such a thing even coming close to happening would be the most amazingly unlikely occurrence in the history of the written word. JMO.
"Shut your eyes and you'll burst into flame"
I believe this was the right decision by the Court. That said, I do not believe from a religious standpoint that this is correct, but the Bible tells us that this lifestyle is a sin and that God does not want this for His children. Therefore, when God calls us all home and we have to stand before Him to be judged, those that have chosen to live this way will have to answer to Him.
They are all people. I know many gays, and I personally do not have a problem with them. It's their life, and as Americans they have the right to freely choose how they live that life, which is one of the basic tenets stated in the Declaration of Independence, that ALL MEN (to include our womenfolk as well, so as not to exclude them here) have the right to seek out LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.
There is room for everybody at the table of freedom. Except for terrorists, and pedophiles.
MOLON LABE!
I guess that I'm old school. I think it was the wrong decision and should have remained at the state level IMHO
Sound like me except I'm probably a bit more socially liberal than you especially on gun issues and abortion. As for same sex marriage, I'm confounded as to why the govt ever got in the marriage business in the first place. Marriage is a religious union between people. IMO it should have been left religious but then you can't unring the bell, can you? Once the govt sticks.their nose into it, 2 things are guaranteed. One is they will always be involved and two, they will always screw it up
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
To add, why do I care who anybody marries? Doesn't make one rats ass difference to me nor does it affect how I see my marriage. If both are adults, both consent, I don't care. However I should also be given the right not be forced to provide a service if I disapprove of it. If a church or an individual objects, that too is their right. If a business doesn't want to provide services for that wedding, it's their choice.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I an socially pretty liberal and a proud Democrat. Yet I believe it is the wrong decision for Christian reasons.
For, whatever the political ramifications, God despises sex between same sex couples and is likely to remove his blessings even farther from this country. As in ..
God the Father said.."the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous."
Two angels, disguised as human men, visited Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot, Abrahams nephew, met the angels in the city square and urged them to stay at his house. The angels agreed.
"Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom — both young and old — surrounded the house. They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.'"
The angels then proceed to blind all the men of Sodom and Gomorrah and urge Lot and his family to flee from the cities to escape the wrath that God was about to deliver.
Lot and his family left the city, and then "the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah — from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities..."
God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. And we as a nation tempt Him to deal with us fairly by enacting such laws. I fear the ramifications in that way. The nation of Israel had their laws and commandments directly from God...and our laws now fly in direct opposition to those. And we as Christians either believe..or we don't
Love the sinner...hate and yet forgive the sin. But as a matter of national law, we tread very dangerous ground here by standing contrary to the God of creation.imho.
There is a way that seems right to man, but the end there of is destruction.
Sadly, that is a certainty.
Last edited by kingcat; 06-27-2015 at 01:04 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
Dave, I respect your religious beliefs. They are right for you but not for everybody else. I'm not gay and don't believe in that lifestyle but that doesn't mean I should force my lifestyle and beliefs on others.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
I understand and certainly don't try to force my belief on others.
My belief is based on the fact (as i see things) that God made the rules. When options are allowed by Him, or things are not clearly defined I am very liberal. In this case there is no wiggle room for me.
I understand being gay or lesbian is not always a choice, and i sympathize...but the choice to avoid the sin as best one can and subsequently consent that God's law is the right way..is always an option. That attitude alone can mean salvation for both the gay and lesbian population. but to say 'the act' is good and that God's command is wrong is to proclaim unbelief (or worse, rebellion) which results in condemnation. Either for the individual or in this case..the nation.
I believe the founding fathers would flee this country overnight and aid the British, seeing such a law enacted.
Just the way I believe..no offense intended.
P.S.
I believe there were other ways of accomplishing this, abstract of national support for any certain lifestyle.
The path we are taking will certainly destroy us eventually. Not the gays nor lesbians or any anything the individual does, but the fist in the face of our creator.
Last edited by kingcat; 06-27-2015 at 02:40 PM.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
I work with kids that are 12 to 14 years of age. I see kids that arbitrarily choose to experiment with same sex relationships, and others who have an obvious natural inclination to prefer the same sex. The experimenters tend to be more of a fad and are likely to be in heterosexual relationships later in their teens.
I tend to favor less government interference in all aspects of life. The government needs to keep its nose out of the bedroom, out of the gun cabinet, out of our medical records, etc.
I hear you, Keith. I use your first point, in particular, as a jumping off point for the following thoughts...
Sexual experimentation is a part of growing up, and not just any part. It is one of, if not THE, most important of all aspects of maturing from child to adult. I have known plenty of folks, actually, from college in particular, who had at least one bisexual "encounter", some mundane, some more involved, but not all that important in the long run as they usually "returned" to heterosexuality and life went on. Yes, some who were stifled GLBT, found themselves later than others and had to go through some experimentation to be "sure" about who they are, usually answering the call of guilt, regardless of the source being family, peers, doctrine, or (often) combinations thereof.
Each person has a different journey of self-discovery. Some know themselves earlier than others. It can often be confusing to those who know little about GLBT folks and their actual lives to understand why members of their demographically small community must often go through a period of deep confusion in their lives.
Some of them get nothing but messages of utter disdain about same-sex relations, yet they KNOW that is who they are inside. In these cases, they TRY very hard to fit in, often too hard, becoming extraordinarily depressed. It is only when they shed that guilt, the guilt and shame of being "not moral", "doomed to hell" or whatever other colorful judgment is foisted upon them, that they become truly happy because their inner feelings have finally been confirmed by knowledge of themselves, emotionally, sexually, and socially.
FWIW, and some folks probably could give a crap, but I expect the suicides, the rate of which is (and has been for a long time) by far the highest within GLBT populations when compared to any other group, large or small in numbers when looking at all of society, to go DOWN as a result of this ruling. That, in and of itself, is a reason for folks, gay and straight, to celebrate (I would hope that love is actually important to the people who say that is what they are taught by god).
That is why attempts to convert homosexuals back to "how they were raised" always fail. They know who they are. And they know they are neither evil, nigh morally inferior in ANY way, shape, or form. And their bodies cannot be compelled to lie to their brains because they pray more. It has never worked and it never will.
The importance of sexual identity, knowing oneself, and how/who to engage with in the realms of love, affection, and sex, IMO, cannot be underestimated when one talks about the human experience, regardless of orientation, and the potential for happiness. That complexity is unfortunately never given the sort of deep philosophical thought, discourse, and written word it deserves when one draws their conclusions strictly from ancient cultural texts, presumed to be law-giving for all of the Earth's people forever.
That is one of the tragedies of the disconnect for some folks on this issue IMO. We humans have learned and grown beyond the relative simplicity, however beautiful such texts can sometimes be, compelling for so many reasons, of these texts because we know so much more about the science of sexual identity, gender identity, and what it means for those folks on a day-to-day.
I was brought up Christian. I know the Bible. I understand the compelling nature of the gospels. With that knowledge, assuming for this moment's point I am making right now that a "god" exists, and that god is the god of the Judeo-Christian traditions' stories, I can say with absolute certainty that if "god is all-loving" and "all-powerful" and "all-knowing", such a god could not knowingly, having all of the powers of the Universe at it's hands, and with perfect love, create the sort of HELL that most GLBT folks have gone through in their lives for millennia.
So many folks just don't get how important this is. Our country has finally said that gay folks are "one of us" and that it is NOT evil to be GLBT. The children who do identify as gay will now have ACTUAL confirmation by this great country that the feelings they have as they mature into adults are nothing to be ashamed of and they can be free to be happy, even if their parents threw them out of the house because of "lifestyle choice" or they were violently bullied at every level of schooling they received, or they were made to fear EVER exposing their natural, biologically CONTROLLED sexual feelings or suffer massive professional, personal, familial, and societal consequences.
It's been a VERY sad and terrible journey for GLBT folks in this country and in this world. Yesterday, we proved that America is WAY ahead of most other countries in this regard. WE proved we are better than making excuses for senseless marginalization of folks for who they can't help but love, one component of that love being, of course, inexorably sexual, whether created by nature without god or nature with god at the helm. Moving forward we will ALL succeed more, as a society, because of this long-needed change.
We are more complex than such texts can describe at this time in the Earth's existence. They are too "holy" to "amend", at least according to their believers and faith leaders, so all we can do, as a society, is correct for the greater knowledge that we have NOW, and unless we protect sexual freedom for the future, we doom ourselves to easy reasons for fringe hate to expand and have a greater impact than it has ever deserved... over who we choose to love.
When I think about it, I just can't believe we have had to go through so much rancor over a person's personal choice to love and be loved. How can anyone, in good conscience, deny another person something so basic and then say that it is the will of an all-loving and perfectly omniscient god... and that they "love them enough" to deny them that love?
If there is a god, he or she or they owe GLBT folks an extremely large wing in any kind of afterlife.
Otherwise, count me out.
JMO.
"Shut your eyes and you'll burst into flame"
All people of moral conscience struggle with their sexual appetite at least at some points in life (if not their whole life). It is a natural phenomenon yet is most understandable set apart from "love". No group owns the struggle.
As Christians,we are willingly bought with a great price and our lives are not our own. God our Father is Spirit and no man has ever seen him, nor are His ways like ours. His is the guideline for eternal life through spiritual growth.
Our free will has brought humanity to this point (be it good or bad), yet soon God's way will be the only way.
No democratic or bureaucratic alternatives.
I hope we can all be a part of that together
God can forgive those who truly believe. Those that do not believe have a much bigger dilemma because they have no hope.
If I didn't believe that, it would not matter what anyone does. I'd protect my family and friends to the best of my ability, and let the earth have it's way in consuming it's fleshly inhabitants.
“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”
-Patriot and Senator. John McCain
This is about individual rights, not a religion, not states rights. The majority does not have the right to oppress the minority in this country.
We have the rule of law: "endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights". I dont see any qualifications in that statement, do you?
I support the constitution and all of the amendments, and the idea of limited government. Libertarians like me have supported these ideas for forty years.
We left a little bit of the Dark Ages behind yesterday. The evil of fanatic religious fundamentalism at work every where in the world; but not here in our counntry. I'm so proud.
From my resolution in 2010!
http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/2301174-...k-gay-marriage
Reports from another church.
As Justice Alito recognized at the oral argument and he and others pointed out in their dissents, it was in fact a good day for gays and lesbians but a very bad day indeed for freedom and liberty.
Personally I'm glad that this enormous problem has been solved that affects roughly 2% of the population. Now lets see if the gov't can get to some of the lesser problems like our debt which affect 100% of us when considering both those who pay in and those who take out.
Aging is an extraordinary process where you become the person you always should have been.--David Bowie.
The idea that the only people SSM affects are the principals to such marriages is one of the tricks the left has used in this debate. It is not true. This affects everybody, though it does not affect everybody in the same way. Though it need not have been so, it is in fact bringing along with it suppression of speech rights and the free exercise of religion, just to take two examples. I think it will be an interesting study for some cultural historian in the future to try to figure out how a nation of 330 million allowed itselelf to become so absorbed by the demands of less than 2% of them. But I do agree with you about the debt!
Of course I am assuming that the government or the culture will allow a historian to make such a study in the future. On the current trajectory that is not to be taken for granted
Last edited by elicat; 06-28-2015 at 01:51 PM.
I agree kingcat!
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